• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




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    1. #1
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      using dreams for spiritual insight

      Quote Originally Posted by hermine_hesse View Post
      I would be interested in trying this. This is the type of shared dreaming I find most interesting myself. I don't have much real interest in simply meeting up with someone on the dream plane.Maybe a new thread for this experiment?
      OK. If we're not interested in trying to 'prove' anything, we can just say what the questions are instead of doing them blind. If we do them blind, that leaves the process entirely to our subconscious. That's OK, but I think its better for me to learn to be more consciously intelligent about this sort of thing. If we know the questions, we can come up with what we can while we're awake, and then the subconscious can add anything that seems to be left out. This shared-mind brainstorm sort of thing works as well in some ways while awake as while asleep I think, but I don't have a "mind's eye" when I'm awake, so I can only get intuitions in words and not in pictures.

      I'm thinking we shouldn't post the questions and results, because meaningful ones will be personal/intimate. I don't want to exclude people who want to be involved. But not everybody is comfortable with every person on the internet. So maybe people who want to participate can reply here or private message hermine_hesse or me, and we can form a private group. Or if its just a couple of people we can just communicate with private messages.

    2. #2
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      OK, here are a few questions I have....

      If there is a natural order someplace that's not as brutal as ours, maybe not even in the same universe, how does that work? How does intelligence evolve without natural selection and all that involves? All I want is a brief experience of such a world, with sufficient detail to understand something of how its possible.

      My intuition says that such worlds aren't merely beyond our awareness for practical reasons, that awareness is actively blocked. Who is blocking this? Is it more like a quarantine, to keep us from infecting those other places with our evil thinking, or is it more like we're in North Korea, and we censor ourselves so we can maintain this particular dystopia? Or is it because those other places are spiritually rich because we're poor, and they keep us at arms length for the same reasons the slaves have to sleep in their own quarters? Or is it something else? Actually I'm sure that there are places that are paradises superficially but which depend on conditions being bad in other times and places. Sort of like psychic bubble economies on a grand scale, with worlds like ours being like slums or factory farms for souls. So I should clarify my first question by saying I'm not asking about those kinds of places, I mean something that actually works in a sustainable way.

      Imagine that our world of collective meta-thought is like the ocean. I feel that world is impoverished, as if the ocean has been polluted, and most of the life in it is dead. Is this a correct perception, and if so how did it become that way?

      [Ammendment: Yeah I know I said we shouldn't post questions. But these questions aren't personal to me, even though they are things I care about. We can talk about anyone else's questions too. If we ask too many at once we'll get confused. But sometimes its helpful to have a couple of different kinds of questions, because sometimes they're connected and shed light on each other in interesting ways.]
      Last edited by shadowofwind; 07-24-2012 at 02:58 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      Imagine that our world of collective meta-thought is like the ocean. I feel that world is impoverished, as if the ocean has been polluted, and most of the life in it is dead. Is this a correct perception?
      No. This ocean is home to the Buddha, Lao Tzu and countless billions of masters and their endless permutations. There is no limit to the light reflected by the bubbles in this water which we share. The Way is everywhere.

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      Quote Originally Posted by telethiese View Post
      No. This ocean is home to the Buddha, Lao Tzu and countless billions of masters and their endless permutations. There is no limit to the light reflected by the bubbles in this water which we share. The Way is everywhere.
      Its not the light I'm concerned about so much as the health of the critters swimming in it.

      Lin Yutang's English translation of Laotze and Chuangtse is one of my favorite books. Yet though its depth is in many ways beyond me, in some ways it is stunted, backwards looking, and seems limitlessly expansive only by comparison to something that is extraordinarily limited. Partially the limits that I see are due to my own limitations, but that isn't all of it.

      By what standard do I say that? Maybe that validates your point, that I'm comparing it to something else that I feel and know which the gospel of our great 'masters' doesn't accommodate, which is left out. And its not left out just because its ineffable, their words are actually warped by its absence. But of course for me to know that, if I'm right, the awareness that inspires that has to be in our world too, it doesn't belong to me.

      This isn't really what I meant though. We live in a world where animals torture smaller animals for sport, where fathers molest their own daughters, and where magic is so weak that people have arguments about whether it even exists. If you don't see anything broken with that picture, it seems to me that your 'everything works together for good' ideology, while true as far as it goes, isn't the whole story either.

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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      This isn't really what I meant though. We live in a world where animals torture smaller animals for sport, where fathers molest their own daughters, and where magic is so weak that people have arguments about whether it even exists. If you don't see anything broken with that picture, it seems to me that your 'everything works together for good' ideology, while true as far as it goes, isn't the whole story either.
      All possibilities are equally real. Just as there is the bad, so is the good. You can find heaps of garbage and wheelbarrows full of diamonds if you look for it, but when it comes to the universe these are simply the rhythms of space-time waves as they rock back in forth in it's sea. The positive supports the negative and creates harmony.

      This world has a unique perspective. We are both as large and expansive as gods and as small as dust motes. There is not too much bliss, nor pleasure, to be incapacitating or to stunt our growth. There is just enough pain to make us search for something more. The way is everywhere here, and it is beyond good and evil. Because we have the ability to cancel out both polarities through their unity, we have the ability to become selfless.

      'Heavenly' realms have too much innate bliss, they cause their denizens to become complacent and warps their character into insanity. The 'hell' realms have too much pain for clarity. This world is a miniature replica of the entire universe, and all of the realms are equally present here... there is an earth for every configuration of infinity, for every man.

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by telethiese View Post
      'Heavenly' realms have too much innate bliss, they cause their denizens to become complacent and warps their character into insanity. The 'hell' realms have too much pain for clarity.
      If these other realms are real, by what means do you know the earthly realm to be be "just right", and not unhelpfully much of an insanity inducing realm, or one with too much pain? Though our experience seems to suggests that our world not at the absolute end of either extreme, that leaves a lot of ground in between.

      Quote Originally Posted by telethiese View Post
      The positive supports the negative and creates harmony...There is just enough pain to make us search for something more.
      So if I decide to explore the experience of torturing and murdering a prostitute, does that give them just the ideal amount of pain that they need for their personal growth? If not, then if I do that then won't our world will be less ideal than it could be otherwise, in other words, worse?

      All of us owe our existence in part upon a half billion years of lethally competitive evolution, apparently. But tweak environmental parameters a little bit, and the dynamics can change a lot, behavior that was conducive to survival becomes destructive to it, and vice versa. We know from experience that spiritual conditions do alter those parameters. You're claiming that our spiritual condition is ideal, that move it in any other direction and there's too much pain or happiness for our own good. Or if you're not claiming that, then you're not at all understanding my statements that you're saying 'no' to.

      Your claim also implies that you understand the full range of possible collective spiritual conditions, and the physical laws and forms that flow from them, and from that understanding you know that our world is in a moral goldilocks zone. Or else you lack such understanding but are making your assertion for ideological reasons, as an outcome you want, knowledge that you would flatter yourself to be in possession of though you do not in fact possess it.

      I understand something of what it means for a child to be abused and neglected for the span of their early development. Different children respond differently. Some overcome it more quickly and completely than others, and some are able to turn it to some advantage when dealing with the difficult conditions of adult life. But always it injures and deforms them.

      I don't think you have the understanding your statements imply, so I would not even bother to respond. But I find your defense of atrocity to be offensive.

      Included in your point though is the point that the answer I seek is close, that it is not in some far away realm. This I think is right, so thank you for that.

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      First of all, I find your assumption that I am defending atrocity to be deeply hurtful. Did you not read my post? I said that because we have the ability to cancel out both polarities through their unity, we have the ability to become selfless. We have the ability to see the bigger picture, we can get out of our heads and see that suffering is imminent, and we can do something about it. We can unconditionally love and accept because we were born with innate pristine awareness that never left us. Why do you think this means that I am willing to let atrocity happen? What I'm saying is that atrocity does not have to happen at all, because they all arise from a misunderstanding of the universe and our place in it. Ignorance.

      That human heads in this time are filled with stories and crap is not a joke. It's not acceptable, but we must accept it because that is the immanence of this particular moment. But once we've accepted it, we can change it NOW.

      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      If these other realms are real, by what means do you know the earthly realm to be be "just right", and not unhelpfully much of an insanity inducing realm, or one with too much pain? Though our experience seems to suggests that our world not at the absolute end of either extreme, that leaves a lot of ground in between.
      Honestly, it's this universe. Don't get carried away by fanciful ideas of 'other realms'. I am not speaking of supernatural things. Every possibility that our minds can possibly conjure up... do you think they are not happening right now, as we speak? Do you think that the universe is not alive? What is your 'awareness' if not a dot, an atom within an atom? Look at the natural patterns of life and you see that it all curves about the 'sphere', and in fact everything is entirely made up of it. Now look at our natural imaginations and our ability to 'project'. How is this any different than the solidified light webs which we call the universe? All of our recognition is based on seeing angles, 'perspectives'. Everything that we call ourselves is just a particular angle within a sphere.



      And it is even grander outside of our heads, look at the ridiculously complex gas clouds and the dancing galaxies. And it is all alive. Harmony is life, and I am speaking literally. Hence our appreciation of music, our reliance on language. Our bodies live in a vast interconnected tapestry of consciousness begetting consciousness. Consciousness as (literally) nothing more than appreciation of that harmony. Our minds are entirely composed of sound. What sets us apart we can ACT on that appreciation, and we can see that harmony is in everyone. Everyone is a miniature universe by virtue of being an atom within the universe, and it is in respect of the way of the universe, not 'man', that we may live, and let live.

      So if I decide to explore the experience of torturing and murdering a prostitute, does that give them just the ideal amount of pain that they need for their personal growth? If not, then if I do that then won't our world will be less ideal than it could be otherwise, in other words, worse?
      So no, that ridiculous prostitute example is not relevant. You must first ask yourself why you would do such a thing, and the answer would be nothing other than a fistful of language-based constructs which mean nothing outside of your mind. Those definitions which you cling to in order to come to such a conclusion are nothing other than your imagination's personal take on what is impersonal. If you strip your current moment of any language based definitions, what do you get? That was exactly my point. It is because of our simultaneously earthly bodies and harmonious minds that we can see that we are not those words, those definitions have no power over us, they are just sounds, and that life, our body, our ability to be here, is an extremely precious collaboration which could end at any moment. Our harmonious minds allow us to trace the threads of life to their origin, to take charge of our evolution and to go past fear-based dual 'perspectives'. It is only when you allow an undisciplined imagination, our own ability to create gone awry, to dictate your actions, I.E. you allow those word definitions to affect your appreciation of the moment in a negative way, that atrocity occurs.

      It is your mind that is controller of language, but language itself is as empty as the space above your head. Deconstruct those terrible thoughts and you see that they had no foundation in the first place - but to do so, you must be truthful to yourself. You must not take that language to be the truth, nor your interpretation of things to be the truth, nor the supposed seperateness of things to be the truth. In fact the only real truth we can know is that right now, we are living, there is this luminous wakefulness everywhere and it is glorious and terrible. And this is why earth is a good place to be for your consciousness - we are already extremely vulnerable, so we can (if we're truthful) understand that it's not a matter of good vs. evil, but rather life helping life to survive despite the extraordinary odds. That our mental armor was nothing more than an imaginary cocoon we put up so that we could pretend we might not die tommorow.

      'vibration', 'energy', 'movement', 'consciousness', 'DNA', 'life', all different words which mean exactly the same thing.

      You're claiming that our spiritual condition is ideal,
      Ideal for growth, expansion and evolution. The practices are all at the tip of a finger now, what secrets were once kept for the priviliged few are available for everyone if they seek it. We have bodies with all eight possible spectrums of experience in-built.
      we have the capacity to combine our sexual evolutionary energy and our inborn awareness and go past percieved limits through utilizing the alchemical processes present in the universe, inside of our body. We can see that the material world is as empty as our own thoughts, hence that incessant restlessness which drives some people towards their imaginary cocoons, will lead those who want to go past that to the path. The human body itself is the secret door hiding in plain sight, the 'ideal' spiritual condition, our minds are the key, which those without awareness allow to bend into hideous shapes that no longer fit the lock.

      Your claim also implies that you understand the full range of possible collective spiritual conditions, and the physical laws and forms that flow from them, and from that understanding you know that our world is in a moral goldilocks zone. Or else you lack such understanding but are making your assertion for ideological reasons, as an outcome you want, knowledge that you would flatter yourself to be in possession of though you do not in fact possess it.
      I practice what I preach. I've experienced for myself the truth of the ancients, and you can believe me or not. I don't care, but please don't make assumptions about me. I see infinity everywhere, I've awakened and am in the process of further awakening. I've dedicated my entire life to the path. I've sacrificed everything I have for the sake of the world, I pursued this path to put an end to my human folly so I could clearly help others. I studied intensely as many sciences as I could. I put my mind and body through rigorous practices and i've spent years at a time deconstructing experience until nothing was left. Alone. I work hard on this, these aren't 'just' fanciful theories. I've seen it, i'm doing it, or i've experienced it, or am experiencing it.

      It's not about the outside world, it's about the internal landscape. The human mind is the rainbow canvas, the moral goldilocks zone. It is our vulnerability, our softness which preserves our innocence and our ability to forgive and move on. We can, through awareness, temper it much like the alchemical process of transforming lead to gold.


      I understand something of what it means for a child to be abused and neglected for the span of their early development. Different children respond differently. Some overcome it more quickly and completely than others, and some are able to turn it to some advantage when dealing with the difficult conditions of adult life. But always it injures and deforms them.
      And so do I. I spent the majority of my life extremely poor. We didn't have much food, clothing, shelter. My brother was a terrible influence during my most precious years, and he constantly tormented me. My parents were old when I was adopted and they tried as hard as they could, but their livelihoods were falling down over their heads and they didn't know what to do. They turned to god, but I couldn't understand that. I didn't see a god anywhere. I grew bitter and tried to hide my pain through a false unfeeling exterior, I tried to convince myself I was emotionless. I tried to put on masks, I tried to immerse myself in fantasy, delusion and lies. Tried to hate others as though they were myself. But every time I looked outside my little self, and I saw the grandeur of the universe, it all came falling apart. I would try to build my sandcastles back up, and time would blow them away, or life would break those towers. Eventually, I stopped trying to seperate myself from what I was experiencing. I stopped trying to build them back up, and instead decided to break the universe into a billion pieces, to dissect it all till I find some reason why.

      I don't think you have the understanding your statements imply, so I would not even bother to respond. But I find your defense of atrocity to be offensive.
      I wasn't trying to impress anybody, I was just sharing my experiences.

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      Telethiese,

      I didn't think you were trying to impress anybody, and wouldn't want to deny what you do understand. In some sense I do still think that what you said amounts to a false pass for evil, though not in a consistent way that appears as such from the direction you see it. I don't think I can explain what I mean by that well enough for it to say to you what I mean to say. So instead I'll say that I recognize that you are sincere in your effort to make the world a better place, and I'm sorry for implying otherwise.

      I have also dedicated my life to a vision of spiritual transformation, and have come to understand some things also. Like you, I speak from actual knowledge. My knowledge is qualified or limited in many ways, and I could learn something from you. But that something will remain very, very small, unless you can see outside of your paradigm enough to recognize that I'm saying something more than the narrow caricature of it that fits within your vision. I'm not suggesting that your vision is narrower than mine, just that the overlap is narrow.

      I'm not limited to language, I can think and feel what is not words, and can read your mind a little. [I'm not claiming a special power here, everyone does this.] There is a great deal about who you are that I can't recognize because I share too little of your outlook. I think that you do not see most of who I am, or you would not have responded in the manner you did. I think that isn't your fault, but I don't know how I can clear up the obstacles if words like 'vibration', 'energy', 'movement', 'consciousness', 'DNA', and 'life', all mean exactly the same thing to you. What I experience is prior to language, but I can't reflect it into words unless I can make such distinctions.

      I'm aware that our world is a tremendous opportunity for learning. I also meant what I said that I understood that what I sought was not far away.

      If you believe you have the whole answer, then you can't see that there's more, you can't see me, and you're not really responding to me when you respond. If you don't believe that you have the whole answer, then its not coming across to me in your communication. Whenever I make this kind of "maybe its this, or maybe its that" statement, I'm not trying to insinuate anything, I'm just stating the alternatives that I see.

      I think the murder example is meaningful for the point I intended, not a matter of fantastic hyperbole. Very many people, maybe most people, are excited about this sort of thing, which is why they spend vast amounts of money every year watching such things in movies. I feel what other people feel, to a significant extent I share the same psychic substrate. But a difference between me and a lot of other people, apparently, is that I'm not afraid of death, and I'm not afraid of calling a spade a spade. For me if something is worth watching in a movie, then its worth doing, notwithstanding that the movie is considerably less destructive for most people. I don't usually watch movies, but I do kill. I'm mostly vegetarian, but occasionally I eat meat when circumstances seem to require it, and I don't draw an imaginary line that says its OK because animals are less aware than people are. I'm also aware that my very existence indirectly does very real harm to other people. To a large extent I can't avoid it, because I share an ecosystem, an economy, and a genome with other people. Also like everyone else I'm joined at the hip with fates that kill people through miscarriages, accidents, diseases, and other misfortunes. But unlike most people, apparently, I'm conscious enough of this to see that is not very far removed from things that other people regard as offensive or ridiculous. Yes I know that what I'm saying here is in a way irrelevant to the point you were making. But it is not at all irrelevant to the point I was making.
      Last edited by shadowofwind; 07-26-2012 at 04:02 AM. Reason: added note

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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      Telethiese,

      I didn't think you were trying to impress anybody, and wouldn't want to deny what you do understand. In some sense I do still think that what you said amounts to a false pass for evil, though not in a consistent way that appears as such from the direction you see it. I don't think I can explain what I mean by that well enough for it to say to you what I mean to say. So instead I'll say that I recognize that you are sincere in your effort to make the world a better place, and I'm sorry for implying otherwise.
      It's fine.


      I have also dedicated my life to a vision of spiritual transformation, and have come to understand some things also. Like you, I speak from actual knowledge. My knowledge is qualified or limited in many ways, and I could learn something from you. But that something will remain very, very small, unless you can see outside of your paradigm enough to recognize that I'm saying something more than the narrow caricature of it that fits within your vision. I'm not suggesting that your vision is narrower than mine, just that the overlap is narrow.
      I recognize that. What I'm attempting to convey to you and what you are attempting to convey to me is simply too vast, too all-encompassing a thing to be fully put forth in a 'few' posts on a forum. We can still try. I know, though, that you were referring to the great shadow of humanity. When I say language, I am not simply talking about the human variety. The interconnectedness of humanity, the mind, the body, time, and the universe as a whole is a sort of language which is difficult to describe to those who don't 'see' it. Like the Tibetan dakini's twilight language, it is extremely difficult to convey because it is so alien to 'humanities' current paradigms. Please explain your point more in depth and I will be able to relate to it better, I am always ready to learn more - if it came across in my post that I was fixed to a certain stance, that was not my intention. The 'Path' which I refer to is not a certain mind-state but rather a sort of free-flowing awareness which adapts to anything that arises, which means that it is constantly shedding it's 'skin', so to speak.

      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      I'm not limited to language, I can think and feel what is not words, and can read your mind a little. [I'm not claiming a special power here, everyone does this.] There is a great deal about who you are that I can't recognize because I share too little of your outlook. I think that you do not see most of who I am, or you would not have responded in the manner you did. I think that isn't your fault, but I don't know how I can clear up the obstacles if words like 'vibration', 'energy', 'movement', 'consciousness', 'DNA', and 'life', all mean exactly the same thing to you. What I experience is prior to language, but I can't reflect it into words unless I can make such distinctions.
      Everything is alien to me. I do not assume that anybody is experiencing exactly what I'm experiencing so I am always ready to 're-define' my life's outlook in order to better relate to who I speak with, for their benefit and mine. But I don't rely on those subtle psychic impressions because they could very well be mistaken. So share with me your outlook and I will try as best I can to share mine.

      If you believe you have the whole answer, then you can't see that there's more, you can't see me, and you're not really responding to me when you respond. If you don't believe that you have the whole answer, then its not coming across to me in your communication. Whenever I make this kind of "maybe its this, or maybe its that" statement, I'm not trying to insinuate anything, I'm just stating the alternatives that I see.
      No. I didn't say that. However, I have gone through some things which have permanently transformed my physiology and the way which I percieve. I am still in the process of living, and I do not even bother holding beliefs anymore since they just get in the way... However, there is something that is consistent and present in all spiritual teachings, all religions of the world, and even in the primitive stone ages of humanity, and within the body's being right now it's truth is self-evident but hidden. It is the reason for the majority of the problems facing humanity (on all fronts) right now and also the solution, and I could expound on what i'm trying to convey to you in many, many different ways. Don't think that what I said in that post is my 'belief-system'. I am only interested in the truth, and I am willing and able to change everything that I said into something more relatable, or on your terms, provided you tell me where you lost me and fill me in on your perspective without being obtuse.

      This 'mystery' changes everything. There is this whole hidden dimension to being and i've only caught a glimpse of it, but that seed within me is telling me I must tell people about it, somehow, because it is so radical that it completely changes conventional living, mundane life and the course of humanity itself. It's not the whole answer, or even an attempt at an answer, there are just these super-fine signposts pointing to a way to transcend the lies we face on a day-to-day, night-to-night basis, and i've spent my whole life trying to read them.

      My posts are just a rough translation of many lifetimes of research and self-experiment. There will always be things 'lost-in-translation', but I believe what I'm trying to convey to you and what you are experiencing are the same thing. Different facets, yes.

      In fact, what I'm trying to point out to you is that there is more. It goes even farther than our brains being connected to an ocean of 'selves', it goes farther than spirit, with 'higher' beings and 'lower' beings. It goes farther than the extreme polarities of negative and positive which are all present within each of us. There is more to the nature of dreams, and it's relation to self-evolution, to nature itself, than can possibly be transmitted across the internet. It is some crazy shit that I can't even begin to scratch the surface of without going on a huge tangent, and even then there will be something missing, because it is fucking ridiculous. What the ancients were pointing to incorporates all facets of existence in a way that is unbelievable, but once you see it you can't unsee it.

      I think the murder example is meaningful for the point I intended, not a matter of fantastic hyperbole. Very many people, maybe most people, are excited about this sort of thing, which is why they spend vast amounts of money every year watching such things in movies. I feel what other people feel, to a significant extent I share the same psychic substrate. But a difference between me and a lot of other people, apparently, is that I'm not afraid of death, and I'm not afraid of calling a spade a spade. For me if something is worth watching in a movie, then its worth doing, notwithstanding that the movie is considerably less destructive for most people. I don't usually watch movies, but I do kill. I'm mostly vegetarian, but occasionally I eat meat when circumstances seem to require it, and I don't draw an imaginary line that says its OK because animals are less aware than people are. I'm also aware that my very existence indirectly does very real harm to other people. To a large extent I can't avoid it, because I share an ecosystem, an economy, and a genome with other people. Also like everyone else I'm joined at the hip with fates that kill people through miscarriages, accidents, diseases, and other misfortunes. But unlike most people, apparently, I'm conscious enough of this to see that is not very far removed from things that other people regard as offensive or ridiculous. Yes I know that what I'm saying here is in a way irrelevant to the point you were making. But it is not at all irrelevant to the point I was making.
      Yes, and that you are aware of these ironies, these paradoxes, the hypocritical stance of 'self-awareness', that is what changes everything. It's not an irrelevant point to what I was saying, actually. Perhaps what I was conveying did not come through in the way that I intended, in which case I ask that you further expound on your point.

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      Hi, thanks for your response. I will be unavailable for discussion August 1 through 7, and I doubt we'll get this all worked out before then, but I can pick it up again afterwards.

      You should feel like you can share stuff with me directly. I won't get all of it, or even most of it, but I'll get at least as much as I'll get while reading and typing.

      I don't think I have adequate time to explain much more of my thought right now.

      I can presume to speak for an angel of mercy and sincerity which is capable of speaking as an angel of pain and death. I don't know if I can explain that easily. This is the deepest part of my identity that I'm aware of currently.

      If I share a common history with humanity I've lost awareness of it or hidden it from myself somehow. I'm aware of a oneness with humanity, but it seems far removed somehow, as if I was something else instead and now I'm out of sync. In a sense I don't have a high regard for the wisdom of humanity's "ancients". It seems to me to be a distorted fragment of what the wisdom of the ancients would be if history were not shattered. In another sense I do have a high regard for it, because wisdom is wisdom, and I do understand that there's a depth there which is not captured by the historical human fragments of those ancients. And I realize even those 'fragmentary' individuals grasped an awful lot that I don't. I don't think any of them saw quite what I see and feel though. I'm trying to bring in something that's from outside that tradition, that is needed by it. My offering is not better or higher than that tradition, but its from outside of it, from somewhere else, so to speak. I want to add it, as a gift, to make the tradition richer by some modest amount. In order to add it, I need people to recognize that the traditional wisdom is incomplete, inadequate, so that they will look for another piece. Hence my unjustified contempt for the wisdom of your ancients. I realize this is a megalomaniacal way of describing this, and I'm very much against Messiah complexes, I'm just a person like every other person, and everyone has a gift. But I don't really have a better way of saying it at present.

      I'm late for bed, and have to work tomorrow, but I'll take a quick stab at a couple of things. People often think of the world as being in need of redemption, or of return to a more innocent state, or as being something to be transcended. They have doctrines about this, which they regard as being the keys to overcoming humanity's corruption. One aspect of my message is that those doctrines are a part of the general corruption, they are not separate from it. If followed, they lead back to the same condition. Its not a matter of misunderstanding them, the teachings themselves are twisted, the gods and prophets are all twisted. (Myself included of course, but this is a limitation I have to work with.) The main aspect of my message is 'I' want to be heard. The 'I' here is a part of everyone, is like feeling, and knows some things about honesty, courage, sobriety, and the long suffering of nature and its fates. I realize that everyone has a unique 'I' and they're all as valuable as this one, but I want people to find this one in themselves because they need it and it needs them. Unfortunately I don't have time tonight to try to describe more of what this 'I' is.

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      I think I finally understand why evil is necessary. It's so obvious it's a cliche. Evil is unnecessary and unhelpful, that's what makes it evil. But you have to be aware of it to avoid it, and in order to be aware of it you need to be it. Without that the goodness is unstable, and drifts into evil. Together the goodness has strength. But the goodness and evil together are goodness, not evil. So somewhere there is evil, in disregard of goodness, which is what makes it evil.

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      Quote Originally Posted by shadowofwind View Post
      I think I finally understand why evil is necessary. It's so obvious it's a cliche. Evil is unnecessary and unhelpful, that's what makes it evil. But you have to be aware of it to avoid it, and in order to be aware of it you need to be it. Without that the goodness is unstable, and drifts into evil. Together the goodness has strength. But the goodness and evil together are goodness, not evil. So somewhere there is evil, in disregard of goodness, which is what makes it evil.
      Yes. That is what I was trying to convey, but it is difficult because it's so obvious that it seems false.

      This 'simple' truth actually goes deep into alchemical processes in the body, mind and 'spirit' as positive and negative 'charges' which, when combined, generate various states of consciousness such as 'anatta' or what the buddhists call no-self, 'christ'-consciousness, et cetera. These can be evolved into permanent states of awareness which allow one to use dreaming, waking, and deep sleep in increasingly more profound ways, develop independent remote 'holographic' or illusory bodies which can be used during waking consciousness to explore the universe, increase the magnetism of the positive and negative poles in the body to such an extent as to become literally connected to the earth and space, and even more. This is all possible, for everyone!

      It has been in-built into our bodies because of the previous efforts of the 'Sages', who permanently altered the subtle structure of humanity as a whole just by virtue of their achievement, which was not intellectual but biological in nature... Because of their extremely powerful evolutionary influence, all of our minds have the necessary 'seeds' which could bloom into liberation if guided correctly, and all of our bodies have the neccesary potentials and subtle canals and channels. This is why I'm saying that earth is a great place - the society that we've created on it is of course foolishly misguided, and people are confused. It's not a great society. People are doing terrible things in ignorance and that's not acceptable, and needs to change. Even the adults are still children because they are unable to deal with the realities of birth/age/death and thus form and carry emotional traumas or 'karmas' which affect the whole in disastrous ways. I'm not saying that any of this is a 'good' thing, or that it's 'ok' to just sweep it under the rug. No, this can and must be fixed. But within all of those scared and confused people is the potential to shake all of this off, forgive one another and go past that pettiness into something wonderful and downright otherworldly. Who else is going to do so other than us?

      And it is all based on that 'uniting together for the sake of change', but with further 'positives and negatives' like birth & death or male & female. As above, so below. Black holes and big bangs...

      It is possible for everyone to become enlightened, because there is a biological spectrum to it. The biological side of it extends into the mental and spiritual. Because our american science is not complete, this is glossed over. Because the spiritual sciences were not complete without material sciences, this is glossed over. Neither is 'right' without the other. I agree. The biological aspect was very poorly transmitted by the ancestors because they didn't have our technology or understanding. So it was 'mystified'.

      The past teachings were incomplete, indeed. I agree with you on that. When I say 'the path' I am referring to the commonality which links all of those incomplete teachings into a cohesive whole, or the glue that could put that shattered history back together.

      I don't come from any particular tradition. I never had a 'guru', nor was I indoctrinated in any religion. You could even call me heretical. I agree with you that the teachings were twisted and the prophets only had a piece of the puzzle. This is what I want to accomplish - I would like to re-translate the truth that the universe is trying to show us in a way so that everyone can understand, because everyone can do it, everyone can see the Dao, it's not something for the privileged few. 'Karma' can kiss it. Cause-and-effect can kiss it. The past and the future can kiss it. I'm sure you could help with that and I appreciate your viewpoint, because we are on the same team and share the same goal.

      I can empathize with that feeling of humanities collective confusion and suffering. I feel it too. People are extremely disconnected with death, they're not really living right now but have immersed themselves in illusion in an attempt to disenfranchise the earth and by extension themselves. They've denied the universe as their mother. They've handed over their freedom to foolish children who are just as confused as they are, so that they can feel like they aren't responsible for their increasingly bleak situation. This sense of not taking responsibility for the sake of others must be eradicated, because we don't have anybody else. At the same time though, I will still disagree with you that our 'ocean of conscious thought' is impure or polluted, it's more like the majority's on the shallow end of it and refuse to acknowledge or attempt to understand the deep end. Unwilling to throw themselves head first into life and all that entails, holding on to conventions even if it kills them.

      I mean, the whole point of life is to change. Our society is stagnating because of this, and if it continues we will not survive.

      I saw that you said 'your everything works together for good ideology' in one of your previous posts.. I didn't say that. Everything works together for the sake of harmony between microcosm & macrocosm, not neccesarily human 'good'. Humans need to evolve out of their animal selfishness centered around fear of death and take care of one another, and humanity as a whole has to take responsibility for the world as a whole, otherwise if we continue to pervert the ecosystem and unbalance the world the evolutionary force is going to destroy us like it did with the dinosaurs in order to return to order. So it's not for the sake of 'good', but for the sake of life itself and the continuation of our evolution. We cannot go on like this. Change is imminent.

      I think the point we were trying to make was much more similar than it was different.

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      Quote Originally Posted by telethiese View Post
      I will still disagree with you that our 'ocean of conscious thought' is impure or polluted, it's more like the majority's on the shallow end of it and refuse to acknowledge or attempt to understand the deep end.
      I think this mostly amounts to a semantic difference with what we mean by 'us' and 'ocean'. My thought world is toxic and impoverished in some ways. Even if this appearance is entirely a consequence of my own manner of thinking, and the symptoms are exactly what I need to teach me how to change, that change is still what I'm talking about. My original question was what way of thinking works better than humanity's collective way of thinking? If we understand that, or at least get a sense of what kind of development is 'towards' it and not 'away' from it, then we can change our reality also.

      I'll have more thoughts later, I'm out of time again.

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      Here's a dream from this weekend that sort of fits what I had in mind when starting this thread. It's sort of abstract. There are two intersecting streams of motive/consciousness/destiny, one of which includes a fragmenting kind of contentiousness, and one which is based more on communication and understanding. In this interaction, the more destructive of the two patterns tends to defeat the other one, foiling it's strengths and forcing it to become more like itself or disappear. In the end of the test, the 'good' strategy wins, but only because the test had been biased by some additional, higher or more subtle influence favoring that side of the experiment.

      The point of this doesn't seem to be that heaven favors good. The point seems to be that where heaven does favor good, this can be misleading, because it doesn't accurately teach the true nature of good and evil.

      I call this a shared dream because there seems to be another kind involved besides mine and besides a god or higher self. Some other person, by being who they are and being present, helps provide the spirit for the experience, even if they don't consciously understand or experience it the way I do.

      My plane is boarding. More later maybe.

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      dreams are a powerful mean to receive message from spirits

      they (dreams) represent a major part of my spiritual and magical practice

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