Thread: Any other Newbies have doubts about Lucid dreaming?

(I hate the term 'Newbies' - I think its belittling, but its obviously what I' m categorised with for the time being so I'll ride it out)

I'm just wondering if anyone else who has just discovering/experimenting with lucid dreaming have doubts as to if it is really possible to be 'luicd' and seemingly conscious in a dream. Being asleep by definition, is being unconcious, no? I've heard people talk of OBE's and NDE's and I don't rule anything out, but rather than anything beyond what we presently know scientificaly, I find a more simple explaination for these experiences in a biological/pyschological framework. I wonder if lucid dreaming is the same.

Do we want to believe we can be aware in a dream and hey presto! - we dream we have been aware and able to control it in the same way we incorporate things that have happened to us recently in 'real life' into dreams? Is lucid dreaming simply retrospectively reinterpreting our dreams once we wake up as having been aware when they were nothing more than the brain doing its normal nightly 'data dump'?

Phil
p.s. I like being an advocate of the devil I have this real cynical/idealistic duality going on.

fluid phil,
I do not know if this is my place to respond since I am not a newbie.
But here me out..please.
Your argument sounds almost like a carbon copy of my friend when I brought up lucid dreaming to him.
He had doubts. But he new I was not someone to fabricate a story or make something up. But he himself still did not believe. Much in the way you described. He thought that maybe I was retrospectively reinterpreting my dreams once I woke up.
I told him with doubts he will never have one. Because it is something your mind has to belelve to be real in order for that state of consciousness to arise.
Time went by and one day my friend came to work as he had had a lucid dream. He was in disbeleif. He was amazed. He said now I realize so many of the things you were saying BUT because he always kept that doorway of opprotuntity open he became conscious in his dream.
We could then connect on so many lucid dreaming topics that could not be discussed before that. Once you have one everything is differant.

Conscious or unconscious, Which is it? It does sound confusing. But take into account that because your mind is at rest does not mean that your conscious cannot be aroused. We have been conditioned to believe that when you are awake you are then conscious. If you are asleep you are not.
This is simply not the case.
In my opinion when you are asleep, we should consider it subconscious.
Here is a little more on consciousness and similar states

Also the newbie thing. It is certainly not by any means meant to be belittling. And we have several newbies that have great lucid dreaming abilties. It is used more as a referance point for the members of the forum. And with it, the newbie forums have been created to help aid a lot of the newcomers. It is not meant for status purposes.

i came about 2 weeks ago and i wasnt realy sure if "lucid dreaming" was possable but i liked the idea. so i read the manul and after like 2 nights i was rembering up to two dreams a night useing the teqniekes and since then i have had 2 LDs

I didn't have any doubts as I had lucid dreams before I ever reached this site.
Dreams are things the mind does, the brain yeh, but we also have a soul which works closely with the brain.

A soul? How can you be sure of that then?

Because my father already had a soulrize when he had a near-dead experience.
He saw himself lying and 2 ambulances arrived, while normally you'd expect only one to arrive.
He knew this before anyone else told him, but in the hospital they didn't believe him...

Which is ignoring facts because we cannot explain them.

Enjoy what cannot be explained, you can enjoy a game without knowing what it's made of.

Time went by and one day my friend came to work as he had had a lucid dream. He was in disbeleif. He was amazed. He said now I realize so many of the things you were saying BUT because he always kept that doorway of opprotuntity open he became conscious in his dream. *
We could then connect on so many lucid dreaming topics that could not be discussed before that. Once you have one everything is differant. [/b]

So your friend reached the same subjective conclusions as you, Howetzer. So what? This whole site is filled with probaly thousands of subjective evidence of the lucid dreaming state. There is probaly not one scrap of evidence that anyone genuinely became concious and were able to control their dreams. Dreams are not able to be projected onto a screen by men in white coats and thick glasses who nod earnestly and take down notes on thier pads.

I believe 'lucid dreaming' in the sense that we all talk about here is happening. I had one, and my only one, not to long ago. But this doesn't prove we are genuinely concious and in control in a dream. The mind is notouriously deceptive when it comes to internal states and so called 'reality'.

Because my father already had a soulrize when he had a near-dead experience. He saw himself lying and 2 ambulances arrived, while normally you'd expect only one to arrive.He knew this before anyone else told him, but in the hospital they didn't believe him... [/b]

Thomas, why couldn't he have been partially concious to some degree (although it might not have seemed like it) and taken some of the details of the scene in, which he was later able to describe.

Its like the Matrix. Things seem powerfully real to us because we are viewing things from inside the Matrix. How would they look if we were able to step outside the Matrix.

Phil

Originally posted by fluid phil
This whole site is filled with probaly thousands of subjective evidence of the lucid dreaming state. There is probaly not one scrap of evidence that anyone genuinely became concious and were able to control their dreams.

Welcome Phil

I know where you're coming from, and it's an interesting topic I have seem before. On this forum too
As for evidence, you may want to research the work done by Dr Stephen Laberge, of lucidity.com. He was the most influential modern pioneer on the subject.

As part of his research, he constructed experiments to prove that lucid dreaming happens as it seems (decisions and consciousness occurring during the dream)
Hint: he used the fact that your eyes are free from sleep paralysis in REM

I guess it's kinda hard to prove something to someone else when it all takes place in your own mind, but once you've had a lucid dream, there will be no doubt in your mind.

if you're lying with the back of your head on the ground, staring towards the sky, you can't see those 2 ambulances arriving. The arrived at the same moment and that's a second detail which is kind of confirming things.
He wasn't on the road, he landed besides it in the grass you know where cows usually are grazing, but lost the appropriate word.

The soulrise was there, there's many of these experiences which confirm it, and maybe the 2 ambulances arriving at the same time while he was in a coma isn't the best example, but i'm sure you'll find better examples of 'impossibilities'.

No one 's saying you have to believe in it, but I don't understand people who aren't interested in it. If it works it will make you lots more powerful and you will have actual 'playing time' in your life. Playing time which is like a computer game where you can test things without needing to achieve something. Experiments that need preparation won't need it in a dream, all that kinda stuff.

Experience it the way you want. You are your own god. All I can say.

I can only say what I know and I'm not a very scientific person. I can say there are things in this world that are are not completely explainable. No matter how many studies are done. This is one of them. You can explain it until your face turns red and a non-believer will still have a comeback. All we can really do is say "Hey don't knock it until you've tryed it." The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice. Proverbs 12:15[/quote]

my only question is why does it matter if your really concious or not? if your mind interprets it as has happend and you feel that you have experienced it then it really doesnt matter what state of conciousness your in, Iv had many different types of lucid dreams, some I would say that they were just dreams of me becoming lucid and I actually only looked back at them as misinterpreted dreams. But I have also had a few that were deffinataly not just misinterpretations because when I woke up I felt as though I had just been walking and all, it wasnt fuzzy or anything of that nature, I wouldnt doubt that the lucid dream you had was probobly just a fuzzy misinterpreted dream as I have had many, but when you experience WILD induced LDs im sure you wont have anymore doubts

Hi fluid phil!

You raise some interesting points. Maybe Lucid Dreaming is not dreaming at all, perhaps it is a totally different sense of perception that combines aspects of dreaming and aspects of your waking reality?

It does seem that there is a shift of some kind that occurs when you realize you are in a dream, perhaps you are awakening to a reality that is totally different from that of sleeping or waking.

The only think I can offer is that it is real, your body is asleep, but your concious mind is awake. Kind of strange huh?

Anyway, I'm going to keep on practicing and will continue to enjoy my adentures no matter what this new reality state is called or really is.

I invite you to cultivate your abilities as well

Originally posted by fluid phil
So your friend reached the same subjective conclusions as you, Howetzer. So what? This whole site is filled with probaly thousands of subjective evidence of the lucid dreaming state. There is probaly not one scrap of evidence that anyone genuinely became concious and were able to control their dreams. Dreams are not able to be projected onto a screen by men in white coats and thick glasses who nod earnestly and take down notes on thier pads.

Good point.
If you consider consciousness as subjective then yes. When you are aware and in control of your action on a conscsious level, same as if you were awake, then you are considered conscious. Wether it be in a dream or in waking life there is the same result.
Do you consider your waking life subjective? I do.
Everything is an interpretation and an altered one at that.

To elaborate on Placabo's point on La'Berges study.
In a controled environment. He was hooked up to Positron emmision tomogrophy (PET) or brain imaging scans. As well as an FMRI. A functional magnectic resonance image. In short, to show what part of the brain was active during his REM period. To prove to the researchers that he indeed was not manifesting this Lucidity and was in fact in control of his actions he predetermined his actions prior to sleep. He set out, opon going to sleep that when he becomes Lucid that he will show his control by moving his eyes back and forth in succession in seperate intervals. Since the eyes are the only physical function that is not subject to sleep paralysis. As the machines had shown just has in any other subject that he was in REM sleep. He performed what he said he was going to do.
Also If you truely had a Lucid dream I feel you would understand conscousness from unconsciousness. I am as subjective as they come and awareness is awareness and control is control. To add to that there are thousands of people who opon having a lucid dream are in concert with one another about its subjectivness.

Originally posted by Placebo

Welcome Phil

I know where you're coming from, and it's an interesting topic I have seem before. On this forum too
As for evidence, you may want to research the work done by Dr Stephen Laberge, of lucidity.com. He was the most influential modern pioneer on the subject.

As part of his research, he constructed experiments to prove that lucid dreaming happens as it seems (decisions and consciousness occurring during the dream) Hint: he used the fact that your eyes are free from sleep paralysis in REM

Excellent. Thanks Placebo & How on Laberge tip. I'll check his site out. Its great that people are applying some scientific method on the ass of ld's. I like trying to get to the heart of matters and I'd love to know what is really happening here. Its a frisky kettle of fish, tis this dish of wishes.

I can say there are things in this world that are are not completely explainable. [/b]

I agree with you here ravenqueen to the extent that as a species we need to be humble and realise we've evolved in a certain direction for only a certain amount of time and can only 'percieve reality' to that level. An ant couldn't even begin to think about what we know (or think we know) about the universe. So what might we know in a million, billion or trillion years hence of evolution (if we last that long). We might look on our knowledge now as we look on the knowledge of an ant.

I wouldnt doubt that the lucid dream you had was probobly just a fuzzy misinterpreted dream as I have had many, but when you experience WILD induced LDs im sure you wont have anymore doubts[/b]

You may be right SD. But insane people will tell you how real thier halucinations are. Does that mean they have any validity instead of just being a brain-fault fantasy trip? I don't doubt ld's are incredibly powerful and maybe more real than 'real life' (and maybe what I had wasn't proper ld). Thats why I'm here and interested in them. But thats not my point. Can we put any sort of objectivity on them is what I curious about.

I'm trying to get my head around what you wrote Howetzer and I'll check out Laberge site in some detail. Its good stuff.

Maybe Lucid Dreaming is not dreaming at all, perhaps it is a totally different sense of perception that combines aspects of dreaming and aspects of your waking reality? [/b]

Thats a good thought actually Seeker. Maybe we are stuck trying to apply dreaming/waking continium when both these states don't accurately describe ld's. Maybe we need a new paradigm to capture the paradox of ld's.

Thanks for input dream-cats.

Phil

At first i doubted it but then i tryed to WILD and it worked!

ive had 2 lucid dreams so far one 10 seconds long and the other 5!

beleive me jus keep goin and u got to beleive in it to do it i think

i have been thinking about something recently...what if lucid dreams are not lucid at all? what if they are simply us having a dream about being lucid. it is entirely how you percieve it i guess. this is some deep philosiphcal stuff here. i have thought about this because my one lucid dream i remember, but it now seems like any other dream. very hazy and kind of strange. but i remember remembering (as is often the case with dreams) that it felt like reality. and i remember IN THE DREAM saying "wait a second this is a dream..."

wierd

Originally posted by fluid phil
(I hate the term 'Newbies' - I think its belittling, but its obviously what I' m categorised with for the time being so I'll ride it out)

Chrissake. You weren't to know, but before you were here (a long time ago now) you all used to be called \"n00bs\", but since that was also categorised as being too belitting, it was changes to \"Newbies\". Shall we just go with \"fluffybunnies\" or something?

i have been thinking about something recently...what if lucid dreams are not lucid at all? what if they are simply us having a dream about being lucid.[/b]

I've thought about that before. There's probably some ECG (brainwave) stuff that could show that it's not just any old dream, however.

Originally posted by Kaniaz
I've thought about that before. There's probably some ECG (brainwave) stuff that could show that it's not just any old dream, however.

To again reiterate!

To elaborate on Placabo's point on La'Berges study.
In a controled environment. He was hooked up to Positron emmision tomogrophy (PET) or brain imaging scans. As well as an FMRI. A functional magnectic resonance image. In short, to show what part of the brain was active during his REM period. To prove to the researchers that he indeed was not manifesting this Lucidity and was in fact in control of his actions he predetermined his actions prior to sleep. He set out, opon going to sleep that when he becomes Lucid that he will show his control by moving his eyes back and forth in succession in seperate intervals. Since the eyes are the only physical function that is not subject to sleep paralysis. As the machines had shown just has in any other subject that he was in REM sleep. He performed what he said he was going to do.
Also If you truely had a Lucid dream I feel you would understand conscousness from unconsciousness. I am as subjective as they come and awareness is awareness and control is control. To add to that there are thousands of people who opon having a lucid dream are in concert with one another about its subjectivness.

To still subjectivley see lucid dreaming as an interpretation is intirely valid. For it seems that is what it is. But take into consideration that so to is your waking life.

Originally posted by Sith
i have been thinking about something recently...what if lucid dreams are not lucid at all? *[...] *this is some deep philosiphcal stuff here

Yep, it can get very philosophical.
You do realise that this is exactly what we have been discussing in this thread already, right? Ie. it's the same question you just asked

I suggest you read everything again if you missed their points. It's all food for thought

Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div>

To again reiterate!

To elaborate on Placabo's point on La'Berges study.
In a controled environment. He was hooked up to Positron emmision tomogrophy (PET) or brain imaging scans. As well as an FMRI. A functional magnectic resonance image. In short, to show what part of the brain was active during his REM period. [/b]

My local library, to my surprise, had 'The dream machine' by Keith hearne where he mentions being the first person to do these tests. I've just started reading it.

Originally posted by Howetzer@

To prove to the researchers that he indeed was not manifesting this Lucidity and was in fact in control of his actions he predetermined his actions prior to sleep. He set out, opon going to sleep that when he becomes Lucid that he will show his control by moving his eyes back and forth in succession in seperate intervals. Since the eyes are the only physical function that is not subject to sleep paralysis. As the machines had shown just has in any other subject that he was in REM sleep. He performed what he said he was going to do.

The machines readings correlated with predetermined REM dream-state levels when he signalled. Does not PROVE he was lucid dreaming. You cannot rule out that although he met the machines criteria of being in a dream state, he still had a degree of awakeness to send the signal. Some meditators are able to change their brain wave patterns into a deep delta, dream like state, and yet are not in a paralysed state. This brain imaging and eeg stuff is not a nailed down science as far as i know. Depends a lot on callibration and they vary a lot depending on how they are used and how their data interpreted.

<!--QuoteBegin-Howetzer

Also If you truely had a Lucid dream I feel you would understand conscousness from unconsciousness. I am as subjective as they come and awareness is awareness and control is control.

I've heard people say the same thing about 'seeing or feeling God truly for the first time'. They say \"you can't know until you experience it. Then you will never doubt again\". They may be right, but it is not objective proof of anything, which is my point.

Originally posted by Howetzer

To add to that there are thousands of people who opon having a lucid dream are in concert with one another about its subjectivness.

There are thousands of people who are in 'concert' that they have been snatched one night by aliens and anally probed, tested and returned to earth. People say the same thing about NDE's & OBE's. \"Peoples accounts of these are so similar, even when they are on other sides of the world, that it must be true\" But pyschological, emotional, biological and subliminal factors common to the human race may come into play in these accounts.

Originally posted by Howetzer
To still subjectivley see lucid dreaming as an interpretation is intirely valid. For it seems that is what it is. But take into consideration that so to is your waking life.

We could argue all day about the nature of reality and is their such a thing as 'objective' proof but I take as the yard stick scientific method in determining objective proof. I like putting ld up to this criteria to get another view on the whole thing. Peoples testimonials about ld's are certainly fascinating but they are not in themselves proof. Even if I had the most transcendent amazing ld (and I think the one I had was pretty low on the ld scale - perhaps not even a true ld) I would still maintain an open mind about it perhaps being a quirk of my brain.

Originally posted by fluid phil+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fluid phil)</div>

We could argue all day about the nature of reality and is their such a thing as 'objective' proof but I take as the yard stick scientific method in determining objective proof. I like putting ld up to this criteria to get another view on the whole thing. Peoples testimonials about ld's are certainly fascinating but they are not in themselves proof. Even if I had the most transcendent amazing ld (and I think the one I had was pretty low on the ld scale - perhaps not even a true ld) I would still maintain an open mind about it perhaps being a quirk of my brain.[/b]

Differant neurons signal when you are in a REM stage of sleep than that of being awake. For them to have monitored that and for him to do something consciously, I don't undersatand your argument. Unless you just dicount the machines merit.

You can play the devils advocate with anything that does not have solid clarification for proof. And nothing does. aspecially our consciousness and subconscious.
This is why books and articles about lucid drreaming are found in the libraries & book stores in the same section as Witchcraft, UFOs and the like. Because there is no proof. And what people have no proof of and even more so, are afraid of it, is put into a classification of the mystics.
The people who see UFOs or Big Foot truely believe them to exist. When they do see them it is an illusion. Brain trickery. You do not see someone who does not believe in UFOs spotting them. Ironically the ones who do have seen many?!

And when obduction is related to dreaming, I find it amusing to discuss with them about their experiance. Because down to almost every detail their description of their account is rendered just like a Lucid dream. But they have no idea what a LD is. But it is no wonder they feel it is real, for they were conscious.

<!--QuoteBegin-fluid phil
I've heard people say the same thing about 'seeing or feeling God truly for the first time'. They say \"you can't know until you experience it. Then you will never doubt again\". They may be right, but it is not objective proof of anything, which is my point.

As have I. However they are in a realm of belief. Where as lucid dreaming can be practiced time and time agian.
And what is belief? It is a lable. It can be here today and gone tommorrow. It is not the person who has the belief but belief who has them...at the time. Just like confidence, arrogance, happiness. These are all feelings that can diminish as fast as they come.

When you make a conscious decision to lift up your arms today. You think nothing of it.
While in a dreamtonight, you realize you are dreaming. You then carry out the same task..at your will. Both are conscious decisions. To consider one subjective you would have to also consider what in your waking life in a constant as well, time, illusion, perception, touch, taste, sound & sight. Is your mind manifesting all this?
I have tried to look at lucid dreaming as subjective as I can. From as many angles too. From all the experiances I have had, I find that the brain is just an organ like our liver or heart.All are capable of functions. of coarse the brain being the most complex but to me it seems that lucid dreaming is a part of the scientific functioning of the brain.

Personally I've never had doughts about lucid dreaming, for as long as I can remember I've had "semi"-lucid dreams... never quite reaching to that special place that I crave. Some call my desire "Romantasism" others I know beleive that I reasearch lucidity from a scientific stand point but the simple truth is... I only wish to know myself. The mind is a complex object, I don't mean to brag and I'm sure that many (or even most) here know more than I do, but I know much of the human mind and much of the subconciouse. The quest for consciousness is an ongoing war, but why must it only be a consciouse war? Why not take the desire to know oneself and ones being, ones very exsistant, to the one place that can give us the answers? That place is the subconciouse mind. Dreams are a powerfull tool, the subconciouse is a powerfull tool. But should it rightfully be called "Tool"? Your subconciouse, and their fore your dreams are you. Don't waste them... Don't waste them.
-Leif902

Current Dream: Lucidity.
Once have I loved. And once have I failed. Once have I had a truly lucid dream.

P.S. please excuse my spelling failures. I have always been one for words and for dreams, but never one for the security of static plauges.

Phil how are you even sure you are awake right now, because you can see, feel, look at brainwave tests that say you are awake, or becasue you dont remember being anymore awake than this before?
If brainwave tests dont prove it too you, then you cant even really be sure that you have ever been awake, maybe your still waiting to be born? Or maybe you are dead and are sortof reliving your life over and over again. Or maybe your just a dream some guy is having and is goign to wake up in 5 minutes and say "wow that was neat, oh crap Im late for work"

oh well.... i need too get some sleep.

Simply those that doubt Lucid Dreams to me have never experienced one to its full extent. When your in a lucid dream you can literally being your self to a stand still at will, and move in any direction you wish to.

Originally posted by Griffon
Simply those that doubt Lucid Dreams to me have never experienced one to its full extent. When your in a lucid dream you can literally being your self to a stand still at will, and move in any direction you wish to.

Very well put!

I'd just like to add last night's experience to the mix. It's got me thinking:

I dreamt (ie already dreaming) that I went to sleep, and then DREAMT that I had a lucid dream. You'd think that's the same thing as HAVING a lucid dream... but no. This morning I realise it wasn't lucid at all. It was simply a dream ABOUT being lucid.

How can I tell? It just feels completely different. It's subjective at the end of the day...