Thread: Vegetarian Discussion Split

Where's the original of this thread?

Originally Posted by Elis D.

Where's the original of this thread?

http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=81954

Originally Posted by Marvo

I'm curious about something, is "organic" food actually more healthy? Or is it simply a "make animals live a better life" thing?

It just means that it's grown without pesticides or chemical fertilizers.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

I think what Xox was getting at is more the aggressive/defensive mode a lot of people go into the moment anyone mentions vegetarianism (witness Amazeo and Lezen). You turn down a cocktail weenie and you're subjected to a ten minute rant/inquisition about how your lifestyle doesn't make any sense, topped off with the ever-ironic and hypocritical, "And why do you people have to shove it in my face?" It gets old fast.

Very insightful. Now look me in the eye and say that those so-called ten minute rants (how the hell does one measure text in time?) don't have any merit whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Lëzen

Very insightful. Now look me in the eye and say that those so-called ten minute rants (how the hell does one measure text in time?) don't have any merit whatsoever.

...I was referring to face to face encounters mainly--I've not yet had the opportunity to decline a text-based cocktail weenie. You and Amazeo's contributions to the original tips thread do illustrate my point, though.

And for your second request:

<0_0> unsolicited critiques of or debates over what I'm having for lunch have no merit whatsoever </0_0>

Yeah, I understand what you mean Tao. That's why I waited for this thread to be split before I added what I thought on vegetarianism.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Not sure where you're going?

That the common procedure for mass producing meat is both unsanitary and a
little gruesome. I think the "stories" of animal suffering were uncovered before
people started going vegetarian for that reason. I don't think they were made
up after the fact to justify a meatless lifestyle. Hardcore vegans do that,
and I've met a few, but being that vegetarians still consume animal products..
Well, you see where I'm going now.

Originally Posted by Marvo

I'm curious about something, is "organic" food actually more healthy? Or is it simply a "make animals live a better life" thing?

organic is healthier to eat because the animals aren't injected with any drugs to help them grow. they also run around outdoors and are allowed to live for a longer period of time, and they have a better diet - which improves the goodness of the meat.

Originally Posted by Demon Parasite

A lot of "organic" things can actually be worse because sometimes nutrients and other things are added to foods to make them better.

organic means the opposite? nothing is added. please explain.

Originally Posted by theyearthreethousand

organic is healthier to eat because the animals aren't injected with any drugs to help them grow. they also run around outdoors and are allowed to live for a longer period of time, and they have a better diet - which improves the goodness of the meat.

Organic and free-range are two different things. You can have free-range chickens and eggs that are loaded up with growth hormones just as you can have organic chickens that are confined to cages. Generally organic meat will also be free-range, but not always.

Originally Posted by kromoh

Amazeo, get a life.

Tip #1, never counter a debate by insulting the other person first thing. It will get you no where. In fact, I don't even care about your opinion if you can't relay it without insulting me.

You just can't counter my arguments. Get real.

Originally Posted by theyearthreethousand

organic means the opposite? nothing is added. please explain.

Organic does not mean healthy, you're just clueless. Just because the cow isn't given any chemicals doesn't mean it's better for you, and same goes for foods grown without any additives. A lot of times the additives are giving the food more nutrients to make it better for you. Organic doesn't always mean worse, but it does not always mean healthy.

^Organic does, however, always mean more fucking expensive. At the store the other day, I noticed a pack of organic blueberries was nearly $5, for one pack.

The non-organics, on the other hand, were a two-for-$5 deal.

So fuck the whole organic craze. Pesticides never tasted so good.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

You just can't counter my arguments. Get real.

No, I didn't even read your arguments. Because you insulted me. Learn to debate, and then come back.

Originally Posted by Invader

That the common procedure for mass producing meat is both unsanitary and a
little gruesome. I think the "stories" of animal suffering were uncovered before
people started going vegetarian for that reason. I don't think they were made
up after the fact to justify a meatless lifestyle. Hardcore vegans do that,
and I've met a few, but being that vegetarians still consume animal products..
Well, you see where I'm going now.

Aslong as the meat doesn't become dangerous for humans, I do not see the problem.

I'm gonna be bold and say, that I'd rather have the animals live a somewhat worse life, so I can safe money, so that I have the economy to help human related foundations instead. That said, I haven't really donated any money to charities in my whole life, but that probably has something to do with me being a bit more focused on getting an education, rather than helping starving children in Africa.

When we reach a point where all humans on this planet actually live a better life, than some of the animals on this planet, then I can agree to helping out the animals aswell.

Originally Posted by Invader

The way in which a person chooses to use their power is a good indicator of their character.

Way to be captain obvious. That should be you're new name. Using your power of being at the top of the food chain, to eat meat while hungry, isn't bad character.

I wan't to eat every kind of tasy animal before I die. Can't wait to go to africa and try out all the endangered animals. lion, and giraffe look tasty.

Last week I slaughtered a 9 foot alligator talk about the BEST friggin meat ever.

Oh yeah, dog is waaay over-rated. those crazy ass asians know what their doing!

keep your eyes on your kids. I might kill them and eat them.

I'm jumping into this hornet's nest of an argument.

Humans have canine teeth. Most animals that are exclusively herbivorous do not have them. We evolved to have meat as an accessory to our diet. And what an accessory it is.

Originally Posted by Invader

Are you familiar with industrial agriculture at all?

Extremely. Moreso than almost every member that has responded to this thread. My family raises over 100 head of sheep, and farms >1000 acres of soy, corn, alfalfa, and clover.

PETA, HSUS (which is not the local humane society), and all of those other militant vegetarian groups cherry pick all of their propaganda videos, etc. Their propaganda shows only a very very tiny minority of the livestock producers.

No matter what pen size you have, the animals will lay on top of each other. Cages are, believe it or not, better for laying hens than an open floor or free range setup. When scared, say, by a thunderstorm, they will run into a corner and pile on top of each other, suffocating or crushing those below them. You will kill ten times the amount of chickens if they are in a non-cage setup. Sows are kept in gestation and farrowing crates to prevent them from rolling on top of the piglets. Hog farmers only move them into crates when it is fairly obvious that the sow is in labor. Besides, at that stage, she doesn't want to move anyway.

Now veal, that is a different story.

We do not load them with hormones, and we do not pump antibiotics into them unless there is a very serious problem and the animal would die from it.

We give our sheep a total of 2 preventative drugs:

*A CD/T vaccine. One prevents enterotoxemia ("overeating disease,") a fatal disease which strikes young lambs if they accidentally gorge on feed, and the other prevents tetanus, which causes an animal's muscles to spasm and lock up. Slow respiratory failure is usually how an animal dies from either. Obviously, both of these are very gruesome deaths for an animal. Vaccinating is much more humane.
*The pasture animals get a deworming medication that prevents tapeworms, hookworms, and other internal parasites that causes an animal to waste away and become anemic. Anyone who has ever had a tapeworm knows that it is not fun.

The others are administrated only if there is a severe, life threatening problem:

*Antibiotics are only administered in case of pneumonia or an obvious infection.
*Coccidiostats are mixed into feed to control a parasite that causes a dark, watery diarrhea. Animals cannot gain weight if they catch this parasite, and may die of dehydration.

If there is another sort of problem, we contact a veterinarian.


It is in a farmer's best interest to ensure an animal's comfort and well being. An animal will not grow if it is mistreated. Animals are not raised in the way that animal activists want you to think that they are.


And, as far as grain farming goes, we are doing the best we can to use less energy, fewer pesticides, less fertilizer (we've cut it in half since the 1970's) and erode away less soil and still have a harvest. The most damaging pesticides/herbicides have largely been banned or are very difficult to procure anyway. It is in our best interest not to destroy the environment.

If you want to scare yourself $hitless on the topic of meat-eating, read Robin Cook's novel _Toxin_, which is all about E Coli in hamburger and a very nasty meat-packing plant. Cook is a retired M.D. who took to writing medical thrillers some years ago. He's quite good at keeping me turning pages and biting fingernails.

I'm a semi-vegetarian, who still eats some meat, but not much compared to what I used to eat. It took a few years after reading that novel to actually enjoy hamburger again though. When I do get it, it's 96% lean! Mostly, I use Light Life Ground Round instead.

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

If you want to scare yourself $hitless on the topic of meat-eating, read Robin Cook's novel _Toxin_, which is all about E Coli in hamburger and a very nasty meat-packing plant. Cook is a retired M.D. who took to writing medical thrillers some years ago. He's quite good at keeping me turning pages and biting fingernails.

I'm a semi-vegetarian, who still eats some meat, but not much compared to what I used to eat. It took a few years after reading that novel to actually enjoy hamburger again though. When I do get it, it's 96% lean! Mostly, I use Light Life Ground Round instead.

Entamoeba coli is a natural organism which is present at all times in our intestines. Our relation with it is that of mutualism. It's Entamoeba hystolitica which causes problems.

Originally Posted by AmazeO XD

No, I didn't even read your arguments. Because you insulted me. Learn to debate, and then come back.

You ain't convincing anyone. You did read my arguments but was way too angry to write a response. You're the one who should learn to debate: your first post was not very nice either.

--------------------------------------------

Also, organic stuff costs more because pesticides, hormones and transgenetics heighten production - produce more, sell for less.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

You ain't convincing anyone. You did read my arguments but was way too angry to write a response. You're the one who should learn to debate: your first post was not very nice either.

Seriously. I don't have to convince anyone. I didn't read your arguments because you insulted me. I don't need to debate with anyone who acts like a child.

There's this thing, called "crying out loud", and...

...ah, forget it. Not worth my time.

Kromoh, your argument is pretty lame anyway, atleast in my opinion. I don't care how the animals I'm eating felt, before they were killed. Sure, if people were intentionally hurting them, then I see the problem, but that's not the case here.

Also, the killing more thing is an argument

Not valid, since non-veggies don't care.

Also, raising the animals is more costly

Good point, could probably use some of that money for better things.

uses land inapropriately

Odd-Nonposter pointed out earlier, that animals are usually placed on ground that is not appropriate for crop.

wastes biological energy and takes an incredible amount of water.

Not quite sure what you mean by biological energy. The water used is, as far as I know, returned to the nature relatively quickly.

And I won't even start on the whole healthiness shit. Also, meat is more prone to being a disease vector than vegs.

If everybody starts eating plants accordingly, evolution should take its course, and there will start being more diseases in plants, that are dangerous for humans or simply makes growing the plants difficult.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Not valid, since non-veggies don't care.

Religious zealots don't care about gay marriage, but it doesn't mean it isn't a point for argument. Killing-more really *is* an argument, whether you care or not.

Odd-Nonposter pointed out earlier, that animals are usually placed on ground that is not appropriate for crop.

I live in an agroexporting country, I know what I'm talking about. The Amazon undergoes deforestation because of animal raising. Believe me when I say it does use land inappropriately.

Not quite sure what you mean by biological energy. The water used is, as far as I know, returned to the nature relatively quickly.

Biological energy is the amount of usable energy you get from eating a being. The beings that have most stored energy are vegetables, since they produce their own food; then the amount of energy decreases on each trophic level, because the animals use part of that energy for their metabolic activities. That is why final hunters have to eat many animals in order to get enough substrate to live.

Clean water is really hard to get, and perhaps you don't know it, but there is a great number of animals that get more water than the human beings raising them. Finally, water you get from food becomes your waste; it isn't recycled back into nature.

If everybody starts eating plants accordingly, evolution should take its course, and there will start being more diseases in plants, that are dangerous for humans or simply makes growing the plants difficult.

Why on earth would there be more diseases in plants? None at all. Actually, plants were naturally selected to gain from animals eating them (though it didn't start that way; primordially, animals were parasites).