ZILD: Zeo powered lucid dreaming app: First LD in a year.

[Ampage]

I mentioned this in another thread, but had a good experience with it last night and thought it deserved its own thread: ZILD uses data from the Zeo headband and the Zeo Mobile android app and triggers light cues and sound cues from the device. Rather than just using the display screen, ZILD flashes the camera flash LED for light cues. It seems to work fine just putting it on my night stand and pointing the flash at where my head normally is when I sleep. You can set the flash length and interval to what works with you. The paid version also enables sound cues, but those seem to just wake me up (or I haven't found a sound cue that works for me). When I used it last night, I thought that it had woken me up, but it was just a false awakening. I realized it later, had a fun LD moment or two, and then I woke up into ANOTHER false awaking (which I was not lucid at all...) I don't know if the app is what caused it, or it was placebo, but either way, its the first LD i've had in almost a year. One review on the apps Google play page said they were false awoken also. I was thinking of covering the flash LED with cellophane to dim it / change the color of the flash to something a little more subtle. I wonder if anyone else has any other ideas or have had any experience with the app they can share. Thanks!

[binnen]

Does this require the zeo headband (or what it's called) or is it enough with just the app?

[Ampage]

It does require the headband (specifically the mobile. version, not the one with the clock)

[Goldenspark]

Hey Ampage, I just downloaded your App last night. Looks good! I did try it, but for some reason it didn't notify - maybe something to do with my setting up incorrectly? The Zeo App said I had a number of REM episodes, but ZILD didn't report a notify this morning. One quick suggestion about the notify - it would be good to add a vibrate notify as an option, with similar setup as for the light flashing. Has anyone else on this forum tried using it yet?

[Ampage]

Was the app running in the foreground or background? There are some issues with the alerts not going off if ZILD isn't active in the foreground (but the screen can be turned off). A fix is in the works and is being tested. I think a vibrate feature would be a great addition in the next update!

[Goldenspark]

Was the app running in the foreground or background? There are some issues with the alerts not going off if ZILD isn't active in the foreground (but the screen can be turned off). A fix is in the works and is being tested. I think a vibrate feature would be a great addition in the next update! I tried again last night with slightly different setup. Still no notify, even though the Zeo graph showed 7 REM episodes. The ZILD app is running in the foreground. This time I set with no delay and to notify at the start of a REM episode. I'm not doing a notify with flashing light, only sound (when testing the notify, the correct sound is played). Is there any issue with firmware updates on the Zeo? I have updated with the latest firmware update. I have the Zeo headband with the dock for charging (The Zeo Mobile+ I think it is now called). I appear to have the latest version of the Mobile Sleep Manager app. since on the Play store there is no update (I have 1.1.10). One thing I did notice last night was that my phone was asking me to set the time? The clock was correct, but Zeo did record the headband data with the wrong timestamp. I've noticed it do this a few times before (not while tring to run ZILD of course). The night before last the time stamp was correct and still no notify. HTC Wildfire with Android 2.2.

[Ampage]

I tried again last night with slightly different setup. Still no notify, even though the Zeo graph showed 7 REM episodes. The ZILD app is running in the foreground. This time I set with no delay and to notify at the start of a REM episode. I'm not doing a notify with flashing light, only sound (when testing the notify, the correct sound is played). Is there any issue with firmware updates on the Zeo? I have updated with the latest firmware update. I have the Zeo headband with the dock for charging (The Zeo Mobile+ I think it is now called). I appear to have the latest version of the Mobile Sleep Manager app. since on the Play store there is no update (I have 1.1.10). One thing I did notice last night was that my phone was asking me to set the time? The clock was correct, but Zeo did record the headband data with the wrong timestamp. I've noticed it do this a few times before (not while tring to run ZILD of course). The night before last the time stamp was correct and still no notify. HTC Wildfire with Android 2.2. That is weird, I haven't heard about that issue before. Its not simply failing to send the alert, but nothing is even being detected and shown in the alert log correct? When ZILD checks for REM, it trys to access the most up-to-date record from Zeo. If Zeo is recording the wrong time, its possible that ZILD is getting bad data. I will investigate more and report back if I find anything (trying with updated firmware). If you happen to find a repeat/delay setting that happens to work, please let me know.

[Goldenspark]

That is weird, I haven't heard about that issue before. Its not simply failing to send the alert, but nothing is even being detected and shown in the alert log correct? When ZILD checks for REM, it trys to access the most up-to-date record from Zeo. If Zeo is recording the wrong time, its possible that ZILD is getting bad data. I will investigate more and report back if I find anything (trying with updated firmware). If you happen to find a repeat/delay setting that happens to work, please let me know. That's right, nothing showing in the alert log. I'll keep trying.

[Goldenspark]

Hi Ampage, if you'd like to continue this discussion off-line from this forum can you give a contact address? Maybe through the ZILDapp.com site? No joy again last night. I have noticed that if I look at "Running Services", the Zeo headband services are running but the ZILD app is not listed as having anything running. Of course, to look at the running services means running settings in the foreground, so ZILD is in the background, but shouldn't something show in running services? On the main screen for ZILD, when it says "you can turn off your screen" what does that mean exactly? If I do nothing the screen dims, but stays on. To turn off the screen I normally push the top power button once. Maybe this sends ZILD to the background? I also wonder if my anti virus App is causing this? I'll try disabling it.

[Taffy]

EILD. No need to slap an acronym on an already established technique. :V

[Goldenspark]

EILD. No need to slap an acronym on an already established technique. :V ZILD is the name of the app on android, and coupled with the Zeo headband, they work together as an EILD device.

[Ampage]

EILD. No need to slap an acronym on an already established technique. :V Its a specific application name inspired by the Zeo headband. I don't claim it to be a new technique, just a way to differentiate it from other EILD apps/methods. And, I kind of like how it sounds.

[Taffy]

Ah, I see. My bad. That's what I get for skimming.

[Ampage]

One quick suggestion about the notify - it would be good to add a vibrate notify as an option, with similar setup as for the light flashing. Vibration is now supported in both FREE and paid versions

[jon1888]

Vibration is now supported in both FREE and paid versions anybody figure this out yet I have the same problem i'm running the free version and is in the foreground but even though zeo shows multiple rem cycles there is nothing in my zild log

[Ampage]

anybody figure this out yet I have the same problem i'm running the free version and is in the foreground but even though zeo shows multiple rem cycles there is nothing in my zild log Do you have any battery saver/ watchdog/ antivirus apps running? I know one user was having a similar problem until they uninstalled one such app. Other than that, what device/ android version are you running?

[Ampage]

anybody figure this out yet I have the same problem i'm running the free version and is in the foreground but even though zeo shows multiple rem cycles there is nothing in my zild log HUGE bug found and patched. FREE (1.46) and full versions should run correctly.

[CorvusCorax]

Heyo Ampage. I wanted to bump this topic to get an update on how the project is going. I'm considering getting a Zeo band.

[Ampage]

Project is unfortunately on indefinite hold due to Zeo going out of business and no more new bands being produced. We will open the resources for the project back up once a viable hardware option becomes available.

[CorvusCorax]

Wow. Glad I asked. Understandable situation tho. So I have a pretty basic design for a home-built unit that costs very little and is very simple to produce. I'm ordering parts for 3 and the total is $85 It's based on the "Eyeboard" by Luis Cruz. Intelsath The design is based on Left-Right-VirtualGround (forehead) electrode data which I believe is the same system used with Zeo. In any case, Luis Cruz opened his hardware and software. The original design uses USB to work with a PC as the eyeboard was designed for physically impaired people to control computer cursors with glances of their eyes. Since we are so interested in using smartphones for EILD, I've begun adapting the design to work with a phone through the external microphone pin on the headphone-port. By using a Voltage-Controlled-Oscillator, the mod should be able to transform eye movement voltage into a change in tone/pitch. So basically something like ZILD or LuciddreamingApp would listen to the microphone channel for rapid changes in tone and when a threshold in amplitude and time is met, it registers as beginning of REM. Likewise, a cessation in that threshold being met for long enough registers as end of REM. It can be made even SIMPLER if an MCU like an Atmega328p is used. Since all we care about is REM or no REM: The REM detection algorithm could be integrated into the EOG machine via firmware. You could write firmware that listens to the change in voltage in the same way as described above and when the threshold is met/lost, the appropriate signal is sent to the phone. That way all you have to code for on the phoneside is a simple on-off/yes-no signal. In this way, future developments in the hardware/firmware side could go on without any issue on the phone/software side - you would have a community standardized way of communicating with EILD software. Whether the hardware uses WiFi, Bluetooth, USB, the Headphone jack, etc...it's all just a simple yes-no. I've been thinking is that it would be really great to have a simple kit to build the Cruz Eyeboard with step-by-step instructions. All you need is a few IC's, resistors, capacitors, etc. and a breadboard. There's a pretty short shopping list that you can spell out for people. It really isn't that difficult, especially if you give proper instructions to people who haven't worked with electronics that much. No soldering or anything like that. Thoughts?

[CorvusCorax]

Here's the basic circuit and parts list: Eyeboard Schematic | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[Goldenspark]

Hey Corvus, have you seen the Zeo technical expalantion? The most difficult part was the logic in the algorithm that decyphers the various stages of sleep, apparently. The hardware to detect the EEG signals was relatively easy I suspect, although they do of course have to be designed together. Zeo claim about 70% accuracy on the detection of which sleep phase compared to a sleep lab, which is pretty good. I don't know how good just looking for the REM eye signals would be. That's not what Zeo does - it looks for the actual brain signals that occur during REM. The problem for a smartphone developper is that you really need mainstream hardware to make doing the app development worthwhile.

[CorvusCorax]

The problem for a smartphone developper is that you really need mainstream hardware to make doing the app development worthwhile. Heyo! So the logic I'm working by is that the most mainstream hardware is the TRRS headphone/microphone port on the smartphone. The EEG/EOG tech can be completely community developed on the hardware side and all it needs to do is use a voltage controlled oscillator to output the detected eye movement as line signals for the microphone jack on the phone to pick up. DIfferent people can develop different systems, but you always interface with the software via the headphone port. That way there would be a greater number of people using the app. You can make an eog at home so easily and so cheaply, it seems like a good place to start. Considering that the app is already developed, it seems like a good opportunity to adapt it to these new opensource EOG designs that are popping up. Just standardize the interface.