Thread: A thought experiment

You talking about what the subconsciously want or what they consciously want? If you are talking about consciously, then you can most definitely make do stuff you don't want to do. There are all sort of quick reactions a person can do without thinking. Subconsciously is more of a gray area but I think the same applies.

The best example would probably be when people panic. People do not want to panic, it is unsafe to panic. When you panic you do all sort of stuff you don't want to do.

Then there is also manipulation. People trick and fool people all the time, and some people are just so charismatic they can get people to do stuff they don't want to do. People can be talked into doing stuff, they most definitely don't want. They didn't want it to start with, they don't want it after the fact, but some how for a brief moment they got sucked into the talk and did something they didn't want to do.

Pressure can get to a lot of people.

Originally Posted by Alric

You talking about what the subconsciously want or what they consciously want? If you are talking about consciously, then you can most definitely make do stuff you don't want to do. There are all sort of quick reactions a person can do without thinking. Subconsciously is more of a gray area but I think the same applies.

The best example would probably be when people panic. People do not want to panic, it is unsafe to panic. When you panic you do all sort of stuff you don't want to do.

Then there is also manipulation. People trick and fool people all the time, and some people are just so charismatic they can get people to do stuff they don't want to do. People can be talked into doing stuff, they most definitely don't want. They didn't want it to start with, they don't want it after the fact, but some how for a brief moment they got sucked into the talk and did something they didn't want to do.

Pressure can get to a lot of people.

Perhaps people don't choose to go into a panic state, but that's not really something you are consciously doing, any more than digesting food.
Those actions that are done during a panic state are things that one does wish to do at that moment, even if it is not very well thought out. They choose to do those things.

Manipulation is just a means to make someone want to do what you want them to do. One may influence me to give my money to a cult. If that person has successfully manipulated me into giving my money to a cult then I will make the decision to do so. It would be something that I wanted to do at that time, no matter where the initial idea came from. The fact that it was another man's intention that I do this is irrelavent. It was still something that I wanted to do at the time.

Originally Posted by sloth

I am presenting the argument assertion that one is UNABLE to do ANYthing that he does not want to do.

fixed

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

fixed

lol thanks.

Panic isn't an automatic thing, like digesting food though. Panic happens when you get really confused or scared, and you are not sure what to do. It is entirely possible for someone want to do something, and have every intention of doing it, then doing something completely different because they panicked. Of course a person doesn't chose to panic, but that is the point right? You are doing things you did not chose to do. Your are reacting without really thinking. So you are doing stuff you do not want to do, because you are confused.

Also with manipulation, you don't always chose to do something. If you get pressured enough, you can do something that you really did not want to do. I am not talking about general manipulation, where you change the persons mind, but high pressured sales type stuff, where you apply pressure and make them do something they don't want. Even while they are doing it they are thinking they don't want to do it.

In an extreme example, if you get hit in the head and are suffering an concussion and you don't know what you are doing, and you wander out into the middle the street, is that a case of you wanting to wander into the street? No, it isn't. I think you have to accept that people can be confused or panicked and in cases like that they can do things they don't want.

When one is panicked, and they do something, there must be a moment of time in which they have decided that this irrational thing is what they want to do. Otherwise, they would not think to do it. Panic is a time of extremes, and during that time one may make an extreme decision that he previously did not consider doing, and afterward regretted. However, at that moment it seems like a good thing to do.

If you get pressured enough, you can do something that you really DID not want to do. But at this moment someone has convinced you that this is what you should do, and you make that decision based upon that. Again, one may regret it later, and have no plans for doing it beforehand, but at that moment this is what they wish to do.
Can one say anything different about their worst relationship? They didn't plan to have a horrible relationship. They may regret the relationship later. But at the time it seemed like the right thing to do.

If I get hit in the head and am suffering a concussion and I don't know what I am doing, I may not choose to wander out into the middle of the street. I may choose to wander "That way" and that is what I do. Whether there happens to be blacktop below me doesn't change the fact that I decided to wander in the direction that I did. If I choose to buy a watch, and it turns out to be broken, that doesn't mean that I chose to buy a broken watch. I chose to buy a watch, and I did. It just happened to be broken.

What if someone is forcing you to do something against your will? Doesn't the phrase against your will imply that you don't want to do it?

I believe that every act by man in all of history was done to either avoid pain or gain pleasure. 1 or 0.

So if someone is forced to do something against their will, they are just trying to avoid pain.

I think "against your will" is a nice phrase, but once you apply it to real world terms, I don't think that it really works.

What can anyone force me to do against my will?

Plato actually divided human action into two categories, one for each element of the two element metaphysics.

Desire, emotion, want, for material difference, and reason for human will.

This is something I agree with, as the Two Element Metaphysics determine first principles. So one can do what they want, but not what they will, or one can do what they will but not what they want, or one can do what they want and will.

I believe the main works are Gorgias and Phaedrus.

The main point being is that to make something one needs to confine emotion to a specific form of human behavior. I.e. emotion within reason--the same as any other craft.

But then again:

Originally Posted by Robert A. Monroe

Free Will Is Fantasy
Within time-space, the very constraints thereof preclude any such theory.
At physical birth, we are bound not only by our previous experience,
whatever it may be, but by the genetic structure of the physical body we
inhabit. From that point on, we have no choice but to be bonded into the
flesh for that lifetime, long or short. We are bound to maintain and operate
our physical bodies within the limitations they impose. The set and
setting of our physical existence is controlled, initially at least, by others.
What remains, colored and modified as it is, might be considered free will.
Exercising this upon another only increases the load. Off-loading is accomplished
by maximizing this remainder in nonphysical areas and accepting
without emotion the limitations so imposed.

I think it's a lesser of two evils type of thing.

Just thinking of 127 hours, book or movie, I'm sure Aaron didn't want to cut his arm off, but Im sure as hell he didnt want to die of dehydration.

Goes for anything. Wife wants me to take the trash out, I dont want to take the trash out, were in the middle of the football game. But I know how she will act later, and I dont want that more than the inconvenience of getting up and taking the trash out.

I dont want to do this report for work, but I know what my boss will do if I dont, so I do the report.

We are constantly weighing options of decisions, and that is why I believe even if it is something we didnt want to do, or to happen to us, it is and always has been of our own doing. The place we are right now is exactally where we have chose to be.

Originally Posted by theMagician

I think it's a lesser of two evils type of thing.

Just thinking of 127 hours, book or movie, I'm sure Aaron didn't want to cut his arm off, but Im sure as hell he didnt want to die of dehydration.

Goes for anything. Wife wants me to take the trash out, I dont want to take the trash out, were in the middle of the football game. But I know how she will act later, and I dont want that more than the inconvenience of getting up and taking the trash out.

I dont want to do this report for work, but I know what my boss will do if I dont, so I do the report.

We are constantly weighing options of decisions, and that is why I believe even if it is something we didnt want to do, or to happen to us, it is and always has been of our own doing. The place we are right now is exactally where we have chose to be.

This is a point that I was leading up to. You beat me to it.

boring objective binaries
trying to stick people in boxes and boxes inside people
it's not comfortable
not everything can be put into groups A or B or C

That's right. Sometimes you have to cook up a group D too.


EDIT:

There are two types of people in the world. Those that are making physical contact with an elephant right now and those that aren't.

Originally Posted by theMagician

....We are constantly weighing options of decisions, and that is why I believe even if it is something we didnt want to do, or to happen to us, it is and always has been of our own doing. The place we are right now is exactally where we have chose to be.

This may be true from a very strict scientific perspective, but would you say that the Jews chose or wanted the Holocaust to happen? The agressive acts of the Nazi's caused the Jews to act out of fear in a way they clearly wouldn't have otherwise. These are not acts of will.

Yeah it's not really true. The "anything you do, you choose to do" thing is correct. Undoubtedly. Otherwise you wouldn't do it.
But the "where you are right now is exactly where you have chosen to be" thing is not necessarily correct.
Someone doing something to you is not a choice. Doing something yourself is.

Originally Posted by tommo

Yeah it's not really true. The "anything you do, you choose to do" thing is correct. Undoubtedly. Otherwise you wouldn't do it.
But the "where you are right now is exactly where you have chosen to be" thing is not necessarily correct.
Someone doing something to you is not a choice. Doing something yourself is.

Yeah but to take it the rest of the way, if you get mugged , you may think, huh, wrong place wrong time right? I had no control of that.... What about what you did leading up to that moment.

In the live versions, Dave Matthews says in his intro to Dancing Nancies, "If I had taken that left turn instead of making that right, I could be somebody different tonight."

As far as the holocaust goes, that was an otiosity, I do see your point that not everything that is forced upon you is a matter of choice, at the same time, there was no way for the Jews to know what was going to happen. Some actually fled Nazi occupied territory just prior to.

Originally Posted by theMagician

Yeah but to take it the rest of the way, if you get mugged , you may think, huh, wrong place wrong time right? I had no control of that.... What about what you did leading up to that moment.

In the live versions, Dave Matthews says in his intro to Dancing Nancies, "If I had taken that left turn instead of making that right, I could be somebody different tonight."

As far as the holocaust goes, that was an otiosity, I do see your point that not everything that is forced upon you is a matter of choice, at the same time, there was no way for the Jews to know what was going to happen. Some actually fled Nazi occupied territory just prior to.

That's the point. You don't know what's going to happen. So you can't say you have chosen where you are right now.

I mean, sure you have chosen to walk left, go over there, pick up that thing, kiss that girl, walk right for a while, smile at that person or whatever lol But you didn't choose to be mugged for example. So in a way you are correct, but if you think about it in another way, you're wrong. It just depends how one interprets "you chose to be where you are".

Originally Posted by tommo

That's the point. You don't know what's going to happen. So you can't say you have chosen where you are right now.

I mean, sure you have chosen to walk left, go over there, pick up that thing, kiss that girl, walk right for a while, smile at that person or whatever lol But you didn't choose to be mugged for example. So in a way you are correct, but if you think about it in another way, you're wrong. It just depends how one interprets "you chose to be where you are".

This theory is based on the idea that all of your thoughts and actions hav led you to where you are at now, not a conscious choice to get mugged or murdered. Humans can control their throughts and make decisions, but fail to forsee how those choices will manifest themselves, we can't see the future.

But if we fail to put both hands on the steering wheel, we find ourselves on a river, with no oar, about to go over the falls.

Call it fate, I guess.

Was watching 127 hours, and when Aron (James Franco) said (I'm paraphrasing here) this rock has been sitting here for millions of years, waiting for me. I have been moving towards it my whole life. It has been waiting for me it's entire life. I choose this.
This was after he had some 112 hours to be alone with his situation, thinking.

Originally Posted by tommo

Yeah it's not really true. The "anything you do, you choose to do" thing is correct.

I don't even think that this is true. Do you chose to wake up in middle of the night to pee? Maybe if you drank water to WBTB, but it's not always the case that it happend because of you will. When you stub your toe do you chose to swear or is it an automaitc response?

Does a pesron who does something by accident want to do it?

The initial assertion can only be true if you take an extremely flexible meaning of want, if you use it in a way that would say that an apple in the air wants to hit the ground.

I agree with your assumsion.
One cannot do anything one does not want, if one does something that seems stupid to do, it is probably to prove a point. If a psychotic person does something, he does want to do it.
Finding an example of an action that a person does not want to do, but does, seems impossible to me.

It is impossible if you just automatically negate what a person says, and say "Well he must of really wanted it". You can pretty much say the person wants anything, if you say well deep down some where they wanted to do it, because there is no way to prove or disprove it. It is just a baseless claim.

What you can prove however, is that there are situation where people do stuff and they say they didn't want to do it, but they did it any way. Because they were pressured, or forced into doing it, or confused and tricked into doing it.

Originally Posted by Klikko

Finding an example of an action that a person does not want to do, but does, seems impossible to me.

What about the things I listed in the post above, such as an accident?