Thread: Is there really something as selflessness?

Originally Posted by Orr

sorry to hear that
im sure youre telling the truth which is appreciated
but why project your motives onto others around you bro
it leads to pretty sick despairing in the long run when you realize how diluted your experience of others is

Orr I projected nothing I made A statement that was my opinion.

Also I don't believe in Fate, I used to argue with my friend all the time when we'd get baked and ponder life. One of my main arguments was just the fact that I could kill someone, I have the ability to end someones life for no reason. People die from others on accident, I don't think Fate is responsible for Poverty, Pollution, Corruption, Disease, War, I think its choice and we can change the way the world is right now. I don't think we are on a set path.

These are my opinions, I'm not Projecting on anyone.

And If Instead you meant this about the selfless part then still It Is My opinion, and maybe a projection, but I don't really think so because I referred to my own experience, but it is based off of why most people are selfless, The Reason why I'm trying to always be selfless. Because A Person trying to be selfless will usually be doing it for the same reasons over all, from what I've seen at least.

In Fact I really don't know/not sure what you were talking about at all when saying this to me and I don't see my current life styles leading to despair, and to say that I'm leading myself to despair sounds more like projecting to me than anything I said.

This conversation came up once between me and a couple friends. I argued that selflessness was possible with one of my friends, and the third believed that selflessness was still self-motivated. If you consider sacrificing the self for the benefit of an in-group as "selfless," then yes, selflessness occurs all the time. But charitable acts, my friend argued, were motivated by the need to feel better about the self (boost the ego).

I say, if an action is performed because you "know" it's the right thing to do, then it can be considered selfless. I like Stoned Ape's description, too.

Of course it is possible. The other day there was a girl who couldn't afford the groceries she needed for her family, I didn't hesitate at all (not even thinking of it being something self-gratifying) and gave her the few extra it took. When they thanked me, I just bowed my head and walked on my way. I didn't do it for myself, I did it so that a family that definitely needed help could put food on their table and not have to be embarrassed and take things they couldn't afford back. Selfless acts happen every day out of the goodness of people and for no other reason than to help.

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

This conversation came up once between me and a couple friends. I argued that selflessness was possible with one of my friends, and the third believed that selflessness was still self-motivated. If you consider sacrificing the self for the benefit of an in-group as "selfless," then yes, selflessness occurs all the time. But charitable acts, my friend argued, were motivated by the need to feel better about the self (boost the ego).

I say, if an action is performed because you "know" it's the right thing to do, then it can be considered selfless. I like Stoned Ape's description, too.

As far as in-group altruism, I read an interesting take on this not long ago. A common explanation for the reason why humans cooperate with non-kin is that it is enabled by reputation. If reciprocal altruism is a barter economy, where favors are traded, than reputation becomes a form of currency that can be stored up. If you are known for being cooperative, people will more readily be willing to cooperate with you.

Of course this is limited to in-group situations, and does not explain situations where there is no prior knowledge of one's reputation.

Originally Posted by Warheit

Of course it is possible. The other day there was a girl who couldn't afford the groceries she needed for her family, I didn't hesitate at all (not even thinking of it being something self-gratifying) and gave her the few extra it took. When they thanked me, I just bowed my head and walked on my way. I didn't do it for myself, I did it so that a family that definitely needed help could put food on their table and not have to be embarrassed and take things they couldn't afford back. Selfless acts happen every day out of the goodness of people and for no other reason than to help.

Awesome story!

Originally Posted by Dianeva

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is what I said not true?

Originally Posted by Dianeva

Everyone thinks that they completely understand their opponent's viewpoint and see beyond it. But at least one of every two people who oppose one another are wrong about this.

man you dont even know me ya know?
seeing as the claim says 'everyone' and that it truly doesnt apply to me at all
yeah im going to have to say its not true
not to mention im always the triumphant opposition ha

unless of course xei says he is not hit on frequently
end my reign xei! tell me im wrong

Originally Posted by ZeraCook

Orr I projected nothing I made A statement that was my opinion.

And If Instead you meant this about the selfless part then still It Is My opinion, and maybe a projection, but I don't really think so because I referred to my own experience

Originally Posted by ZeraCook

Any Way I don't think there is such thing as true selflessness because Even though I try to be selfless I'm Doing it for a somewhat selfish reason.

>you try to be selfless
>you do it for somewhat selfish reasons
>there is no such thing as true selflessness

i see that you understand you are being selfless for somewhat selfish reasons
but in saying 'there is no such thing as true selflessness' youre suggesting everyone else probably feels the same way
aka projecting

as i mentioned to dianeva
my existence destroys your claim really
that is all

I don't see my current life styles leading to despair, and to say that I'm leading myself to despair sounds more like projecting to me than anything I said.

ha it was just a general comment about leading a projecting life
ive seen many fall victim though thats for sure

Originally Posted by Orr

man you dont even know me ya know?
seeing as the claim says 'everyone' and that it truly doesnt apply to me at all
yeah im going to have to say its not true
not to mention im always the triumphant opposition ha

unless of course xei says he is not hit on frequently
end my reign xei! tell me im wrong





>you try to be selfless
>you do it for somewhat selfish reasons
>there is no such thing as true selflessness

i see that you understand you are being selfless for somewhat selfish reasons
but in saying 'there is no such thing as true selflessness' youre suggesting everyone else probably feels the same way
aka projecting

as i mentioned to dianeva
my existence destroys your claim really
that is all



ha it was just a general comment about leading a projecting life
ive seen many fall victim though thats for sure

Still I say No. If it were a Projection, then I would be in Denial about the fact that I do it, thats what makes it a projection is that the person is in denial about themselves in someway so they "Project" what they are or do on others. But no I'm not Denying I do it myself. I'm actually talking to people about why they do selfless acts, some of the reasons I've heard so far are "Because If I was in that situation then I would hope someone would help me" "Because I Treat others how I want to be treated", so I'm not just projecting myself on others I am learning from the people around me and then making observations.

As for the fact that you exist, that really has nothing to do with destroying my statement about selflessness or selflessness in itself, You just sound like an egotist. Which is only boosted by your previous statement "not to mention im always the triumphant opposition ha," I really don't know how someone can always be in the triumphant position when they don't even know the real meaning and purpose of the words they use.

And About leading a projecting life, Projection is a psychological defence mechanism and it helps relieve stress and anxiety, So really its a good thing for some people who do it.

No.

The motivation is the self.

Duty, love, guilt, or 1,000 other things are the motivator to save a woman trapped in a burning building, take a bullet for someone, volunteer at a hospital, or donate your life savings to charity.

Selflessness can only be achieved if you are not part of the equation.

True selflessness would be to say "Here is a magic button that will make something happen to someone else. I will not know it's results (for knowing it would indicate a bias), and I will have no control over how it affects my life, but it will."

Originally Posted by Warheit

Of course it is possible. The other day there was a girl who couldn't afford the groceries she needed for her family, I didn't hesitate at all (not even thinking of it being something self-gratifying) and gave her the few extra it took. When they thanked me, I just bowed my head and walked on my way. I didn't do it for myself, I did it so that a family that definitely needed help could put food on their table and not have to be embarrassed and take things they couldn't afford back. Selfless acts happen every day out of the goodness of people and for no other reason than to help.

This is not selflessness, this is altruism, a self motivator, something that some would even call an instinct.

It is not selfless any more than choosing to walk a certain path is. It is the combination of many factors, the primary of which being your motivation and instinct.

It was a great thing you did, but not for selflessness.

Originally Posted by ZeraCook

Still I say No. If it were a Projection, then I would be in Denial about the fact that I do it, thats what makes it a projection

I really don't know how someone can always be in the triumphant position when they don't even know the real meaning and purpose of the words they use.

ok i gotchu i was really just using the word as my peers do
my point is not about your understanding of how you do not think selflessness is possible
my point is that for some reason you are under the impression selflessness doesnt exist in others because you cant be selfless
dont do that

As for the fact that you exist, that really has nothing to do with destroying my statement about selflessness or selflessness in itself, You just sound like an egotist.

i referenced myself because as my first post in this thread shittily reveals
it is possible to be selfless it happens all the time really
youve been so before as i have and so has everyone else
i cant elaborate on the topic right now maybe i'll do so very soon
the reality of it is dripping with irony so like you probably wont find it that appealing
its pretty horrific really but maybe i'll lay it out anyway

I'm actually talking to people about why they do selfless acts, some of the reasons I've heard so far are "Because If I was in that situation then I would hope someone would help me" "Because I Treat others how I want to be treated", so I'm not just projecting myself on others I am learning from the people around me and then making observations.

thats not surprising
its pretty unpleasant to repeat this actually
but again i reference myself to prove how that train of thought isnt universal
all i can say is keep talking to different people

Ok I think I get you but I still don't see selflessness because If you treat someone selflessly its because You would want them to treat you the same way, Can you really say differently? I just don't believe in Selflessness, its not that I don't believe in doing good, because that is all I try to do, I just don't think people do good pointlessly, I really don't think people do anything pointlessly, and that is what would need to be done to be selfless, But like we had different definitions on projecting then we may have different definitions of selflessness, causing my view to be distorted from yours.

Earlier DarkMatter I believe Stated that it came down to the definition and my definition was one he said that was without benefit to yourself, and I feel when I help any one for any reason it benefits me no matter what. This all really stems from I think, that non of us are special, I don't believe in Races or Countries, there all just dividers we need to get past and realise we are all on the same rock anyway. So I feel helping anything on this earth is to help yourself. So you can fight that I'm projecting again, and that not everyone feels this way, but it kind of would be contradicting I would think, because whats the point of selflessness if your only selfless to a certain race or region of people, and letting yourself influence your "Selflessness", And how can Helping something not help you in someway, I just haven't experienced it and I have done what others would call selfless, Like I saw a post earlier that said they finished paying for someones groceries, Yeah I've done that to, but even though I didn't know the people and never saw them again, didn't even chat with them I still wouldn't consider it selfless.

Well obviously, if the question refers to absolute selflessness, and in order to achieve it you'd need to completley remove your 'self' from the equation, then the term 'selfless' is an oxymoron. How can 'you' do ANYTHING that doesn't involve yourself? It's a loaded question really, and comes down to a matter of what he word means. In other words it's a pointless question if it's meant in absolute terms.

Usually when people ask this question they're either wondering how strong altruism can really be, or there's a sneering undercurrent of accusation - "All those helpful people aren't really selfless, because it's technically impossible to be selfless! - HAH!!"

But I mean, that's kind of pointless, isn't it? But fortunately, we did evolve to be altruistic (some of us anyway), and tha'ts what's really meant when people talk about selflessness. If you put yourself in great danger, work hard, or give lots of hard-earned money to help someone else with no benefit to yourself aside from that little good feeling it gives you, that's pretty damn unselfish!

I read a very good essay written by a student of Ayn Rand some time back when I was in college titled, "The Virtue of Selfishness." It's good enough I think everyone could benefit from reading some or all of the work.

The Virtue of Selfishness

Originally Posted by Phion

I read a very good essay written by a student of Ayn Rand some time back when I was in college titled, "The Virtue of Selfishness." It's good enough I think everyone could benefit from reading some or all of the work.

The Virtue of Selfishness

1. Ayn Rand: am skeptical.
2. by Ayn Rand, or a student of Ayn Rand? You say one thing, the link says another.
3. 138 page essay: tl;dnr. can I get an excerpt?

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

1. Ayn Rand: am skeptical.

As you should be, she was a skeptic.

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

2. by Ayn Rand, or a student of Ayn Rand? You say one thing, the link says another.

I was basically wrong, the version I read had an introduction from Branden so that's probably why I was confused.

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

3. 138 page essay: tl;dnr. can I get an excerpt?

You could, but that would involve me doing the foot work, which I'm not presently inclined to do.

I wouldn't consider saving someone selflessness so much as a widening of the self beyond one's personal identity. I believe empathy is not based purely one being aware of "others" so much as being aware that others are much like you. After all empathy is essentially when one experiences a reflective form of what others are experiencing. In this way, to some extent, when one feels empathy for another's plight, part of them feels as though they are also in this plight. By alleviating the other of their problem, they mildly alleviate themselves of the problem.

And I do not see why it is necessary to regard selflessness as anything more special than highly evolved selfishness. This does not strike me as wrong in any way. Of course we serve ourselves, but we are also evolving in the direction of serving a larger self than our bodies and identities. By joining together and helping each other, we are increasing our chances of survival, which is why we feel good about helping each other. Millions of years of genetic practice has ensured we will feel good about doing things which increase our chances of survival.

To summarize the essay, looking out for one's best self-interest does not necessarily mean one is being selfish. Adoption, for example, is a situation where a person's self interest is also in alignment with the child's best self-interest and the people who adopt the child, a win-win-win, if you will.

All selfless acts are inherently symbiotic. Even when you die to save someone, you are following methods put in place by self-interest. Of course we are speaking about statistical advantage, as that's all we can really depend on when it comes to using rules and methods to deal with nature's unpredictability.

Strictly, it's easy to assert that a man running into a burning house to save a woman, whilst killing himself, is selfless. It's easy because we're observers, and so our 'self' is not directly involved in the situation. We then look superficially at the physical actions of the agents involved--as if they're wooden toys--and not the invisible mental states that motivate them.

We then reason: Selfish man values his life. Selfless man sacrifices his life. Man runs into burning house. He sacrifices life. Therefore he is selfless. Purely action-based. The question is: why would he run into the house? His motivation comes from within, from his self, and so any action is necessarily selfishly motivated..... if we're going to be black/white about it.

It's not so black/white, however, for his actions have consequences potentially beneficial to himself (he didn't intend to die) and consequences beneficial to others (saving a life). And so as others have said it's a matter of degree, not absolution - We should focus on the intended consequences of behaviour (the ratio of benefit to self; benefit to others), and not what motivates it (given motivation is necessarily selfish).

Aren't the intended consequences the same as the motivation?

Yeah thats what I thought./

The consequences contain the selfish motivation, but also the benefit to others. Regardless if this benefit to others is somewhat rooted in selfish motivation, if the consequences are largely beneficial to others, more than self, it should be seen as tending toward selflessness.

If, however, we approach this in a black and white sense, then it's impossible to say that one action is more selfish than another action. And I'm sure we agree that some actions are more selfish than others, right? So, some actions are less selfish than others too...

Given that, then this is possible:

Action (A) Selfish-----[]-------------------Selflessness

Action (B) Selfish-------------[]-----------Selflessness

Probably oversimplifying it here.

I think that the way you are putting it, the part where you say it is largely beneficial to others more than self, Well that wouldn't make it selfless at all because you your self are still getting benefits. so while it would lean more towards selfless than something that is more beneficial to self than others, it would not be selfless.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, yes you are right it would be less selfish than other actions.

Yeah, I don't believe absolute selflessness is possible. But this doesn't necessarily make an action absolutely selfish.

And nor does this realisation make any such action less virtuous. This is modulated by: to what degree are you willing to sacrifice selfish gains of X, for others to gain from you? That apparent degree is what you will be judged on by others (how selfless/selfish), and so you will gain something from sacrifice: positive approval. The question is, why would you sacrifice your gains of X for approval of behaviour? I reckon group membership - this means survival and easier life. Looked at in this sense, selflessness is a clever, perhaps unwitting, way of being selfish (from the perspective of the doer), but it is still largely selfless from the perspective of the receiver.

I just don't know where I'm going with this now.