Do All Good People Go to Heaven?

**YULAW** · 02-14-2004 10:43 PM

Okay everyone Im back and ready to discuss why I made this statement to paperdoll. Now a lot of you took it as being evil or mean but in actuality its not that. Its just truth. And its mean and evil because of fear.

Lets start off with your statement Lucius.

Originally posted by Lucius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lucius)</div>

Ah cmmon..dont tell that girl shes not going to heaven. Thats just mean >_<. Im not going to give my opinion about wether heaven exists or not..but dont tell a person he/shes not going to heaven and is going to burn in hell, all good hearted, nice, honorable persons go to heaven, or get what they deserve, something good. Wether thats trough heaven or karma..or trough the laws of the cosmos..you get what you deserve, and to tell her she going to hell, thats mean.
Shes not.Im leaving my own religious believe sout fo this right now.
but you go to heaven/receive good thing whatever by being a good hearted person, helping out others, being nice for others, raditating positive energy, respecting others, respecting the planet..etc..not being living strictly by the laws of..god? And certainly by telling others their going to burn in hell.. , dont be a meanie [/b]

I never said she was going to hell where did you get that from? I don’t believe in a Firey tormented hell per-say. The concept of Hell that you are referring to is Non existent to me. This place of torture is never mentioned anywhere in The Bible orginal languages of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic Scriptural writings.

As Paperdoll mentioned she believes in what is stated in the bible right?

Acts 2:34: “David [Whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to God’s heart ‘] Did not ascend to the heavens.”

Matt. 11:11 “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (So it states clearly here that John did not ascend to the heavens when he died.)

Ps. 37:9, 11, 29: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in the Lord are the ones that will possess the earth… The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (This clearly states that all will not ascend to the heavens.)

Originally posted by Paperdoll@
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Notice that I highlighted everlasting Life.

First lets take this word and play around with it for a brief moment.

Life; Definition: An active condition that distinguishes plants, animals, humans, and spirit beings from inanimate objects. Physical living things generally have the capabilities of growth, metabolism, response to external stimuli, and reproduction. Vegetation has active life but not life as a sense-processing soul. In earthly souls, animal and human, there are both active life-force to animate them and breath to sustain that life-force.

Life is the fullest sense, as applied to intelligent persons, is perfect existence with the right to it. The human soul is not immortal. But faithful servants of God have the prospect of everlasting life in a perfection-on earth for many, in heaven for a “little flock” as heirs of the Kingdom of God.

Is Heavenly Life set out in the “New Testament” as the hope for all Christians?
John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be. “ (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)

John 1:12, 13: “As many did receive him [Jesus], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Notice that the context, in verse 11, refers to Jesus’ “own people,” the Jews. As many of them as did receive him when he came to them in the first century became God’s children, with heavenly life in view. The verbs in the text are in the past tense, so this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since then.)

Rom. 8:14, 16, 17: “All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (At the time this was written it was true that all who were led by God’s spirit were God’s sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this had not always been true. Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, but Matthew 11:11 makes clear that he will not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. So, too, after the gather of the heirs of the Heavenly Kingdom, there would be other who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in Heavenly glory.)

Now if there is something you are confused about then I would more than happy to shed more light on the scriptures.

<!--QuoteBegin-Dougdrums
Not to be argumentitive or such, I'm just curious about why you say this. ExYOu're right I just don't want her to get dissapointed when her times up. Oh actually she wouldn't be I mean you can't have feelings if you're not conscious. You know what when I come back im going to cross reference some things in your bible Paperdoll just to explain to you why you're not going to Heaven. See ya explanation?

This statement refers to death.

What is the condition of the Dead?
Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

Ps.146:4: “His spirit goes, out he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts” All his thinking”] do perish.”

John 11:11-14 “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep… Jesus said to them outspokenly: Lazarus has died.” (Also Psalm 13:3)

Is there some part of man that lives on when the body dies?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning- itself will die.”

Isa. 53:12: “He poured out his soul to the very death.”

Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

Medical Explanations of Life after Death experiences.

The medical editor of The Arizona Republic wrote: “When physical prowess is at its lowest ebb, as under anesthia, or the result of disease or injury, automatic control of bodily functions diminishes accordingly. Thus, the neurohormones and catecholamines of the nervous system are released and pour out in uncontrolled quantity. The result, among other manifestations, is the hallucination, rationalized after returning to consciousness, of having died and returned to life.” – May 28, 1977,Pg C-1 Also The German Medical Journal Fortschritte der Medizin, No. 41 1979; Psychology Today, January 1981.

Now that pretty much sums a lot up if anyone has any questions in regards to what is written then I would be more than happy to accommodate the answers to such questions.

You have Wisdom Beyond your years. Tom Cruise- I forgot what movie.. I think Top Gun/ or maybe The Firm/then again I think a Few Good Men..

**nerve** · 02-15-2004 01:57 AM

I'm not even going to argue with you.

**Berserk Exodus** · 02-15-2004 03:48 AM

It's funny how most people when conducting religious arguments use the bible as a defense or offense when the very purpose of a reliogious debate is to converse through non-religious means.

(I have no idea what this topic was about.)

**YULAW** · 02-15-2004 06:39 AM

Originally posted by Berserk Exodus
It's funny how most people when conducting religious arguments use the bible as a defense or offense when the very purpose of a reliogious debate is to converse through non-religious means.

(I have no idea what this topic was about.)

That's where you're wrong my friend the true purpose of a religous debate is to find consistancy within the original Hebrew Scriptures which most current Bible books are lacking? Anyway why not utilize the Bible considering all words are inspired by the creator.

Let me ask you this Why is it that you do not believe in GOD?

**Lucius** · 02-15-2004 11:30 AM

X_X, oh man, thats a whole lotta stuff..

First of all, maybe I was wrong saying you said she is going to hell, because you said she is not going to heaven, so I draw the conclusion, she is going to another place, in the christian ideas of after life. So I figured thats probally hell, lake of fire or not.

And second, shadow, can you please just speak from your heart, from your soul and not from the bible and say, as a person, that it would be just, that it would be right if a good hearted person, that lived his entire life deticated to others, helping them out, respecting others, preaching peace and harmony, but did not believe in the exact Christian ideas should not go to heaven?

Also, I am not a christian of course, and have other believes, so I cant exactly say that heaven exist as I see things way diffirent. But you can replace heaven with other words from other religions..and I do think that every person, that is like I said it there, deserves and receives that good thing in the end.

If you would ask *me* why I dont believe in "God" I could say I do, but I see it a little diffirently. [/i]

**kittie11** · 02-16-2004 04:02 AM

Not all ppl go to heaven.

**dougdrums** · 02-16-2004 05:46 AM

OK, I'm going to try to get through this without swearing once...

Acts 2:32-36: "32: Then Jesus God raised up, and of that we [His disciples] are witnesses. 33: Being therefore lifted high by and to the right hand of God, and having recived from the Father the promised [blessing which is the] Holy Spirit. He has made this outpouring which you yourselves both see and hear. 34: For David did not ascend into the heavens; yet he himself says, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand and share my throne 35: Till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Read the whole thing, you doof.

About Matt. 11: How is that clear, and how do you know he is talking about heaven? The whole chapter is about teaching through parables.

About Psalm 37: Psalm 37 was a personal song by David. Therefore being a song, it must be read as if it was poetry. Anyone who knows anything about poetry knows that most poetry is not literal in meaning.

Psalm 37:28-29: "28: For the Lord delights in justice and forsakes not His saints; they are preserved forever, but the offspring of the wicked [in time] shall be cut off. 29: [Then] the [consistently] righteous shall inherit the land forever and dwell upon it forever."

You must remember that the hebrew word for "land" is also used for "earth". This psalm just says that the wicked may seem to get everything they want by being wicked, but sooner or later the consistently righteous will overtake there belongings and wealth.

Where did you pull that the human soul is not immortal from? Your... uh... butt?

Now, I honestly don't belive everyone goes to heaven. There is a Hell, and people DO go there, but...

In John 14, he is talking to his disciples, not the 12 apostles, which means everyone who spreads his doctrine.

About John 1: Any knowlogable Christian knows that God reaches out to everyone, you become christian by accepting Him. In verse eleven, he is talking about [the triune] God. By "His own", it then means everyone.

I already disproved your theory on your quote from Romans.

There are three seperate "parts", if you will, to the human being. Body, mind, and soul.

In Psalm 146:4, the hebrew word used for this type of thought refers only to previous thoughts, not all thoughts.

Both John 11:11-14 and Psalm 13:3: Sleep is refered to as the resting state of the body.

Ezek 18:3 is a parable:

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>As I live, says the Lord God, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die. But if a man is [uncompromisingly] righteous (upright and in right standing with God) and does what is lawful and right, And has not eaten [at the idol shrines] upon the mountains nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, has not defiled his neighbor\'s wife nor come near to a woman in her time of impurity, And has not wronged anyone but has restored to the debtor his pledge, has taken nothing by robbery but has given his bread to the hungry and has covered the naked with a garment,...[/b][/quote]

Ok, it's getting late and the words on my Bible are starting to walk off the page, so I'll make the rest quick:

Isa. 53:12: First off, stop quoting just one part of the verse to make your argument stronger. "Soul" is a mistranslation. The word "life" is a better translation.

Eccl. 9:6: Another verse you only partially quoted. The author is using figurative language to emphisize the human body state.

I really don't care about the rest of the stuff, it is irrelevent.

I would like to know what translation you quoted from, would you please tell me?

BTW: All of my quotes are from the Amplified translation, the one that most fully explains the meaning of the words of the original language.

**Berserk Exodus** · 02-16-2004 05:47 AM

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing

That's where you're wrong my friend the true purpose of a religous debate is to find consistancy within the original Hebrew Scriptures which most current Bible books are lacking? Anyway why not utilize the Bible considering all words are inspired by the creator.

Let me ask you this Why is it that you do not believe in GOD?

No, it's not that I don't believe in god, I doubt His existence. I find more evidence towards Santa Clause not existing, so I don't recognize him.

I consider religion to be a crutch for people lacking in personal will. I'm somewhere between Agnosticism and Nihilism. Anyways, I have been taking up reading the bible as of late. How can I criticize something I've never read? Anyways, it's a strange novel from what I've read so far.

**dougdrums** · 02-16-2004 05:59 AM

Just to make sure everyone knows:

I am absolutly not trying to presure anyone into any religion. The only reason I am debating is because shadow is attacking instead of teaching, which is not cool. I'm sorry if I offened anyone, please don't take this personal.

I make a motion that from now on religion should only be discussed as a chance for learning and not for debating. Anyone second that?

**CocoDan** · 02-16-2004 06:32 AM

I second that.

**nerve** · 02-16-2004 06:49 AM

Originally posted by Berserk Exodus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Berserk Exodus)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-ShadowNightWing

That's where you're wrong my friend the true purpose of a religous debate is to find consistancy within the original Hebrew Scriptures which most current Bible books are lacking? Anyway why not utilize the Bible considering all words are inspired by the creator.

Let me ask you this Why is it that you do not believe in GOD?

No, it's not that I don't believe in god, I doubt His existence. I find more evidence towards Santa Clause not existing, so I don't recognize him.

I consider religion to be a crutch for people lacking in personal will. I'm somewhere between Agnosticism and Nihilism. Anyways, I have been taking up reading the bible as of late. How can I criticize something I've never read? Anyways, it's a strange novel from what I've read so far.[/b]

'tis a strange novel...isn't it?

**kittie11** · 02-16-2004 08:51 AM

Originally posted by Berserk Exodus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Berserk Exodus)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-ShadowNightWing

That's where you're wrong my friend the true purpose of a religous debate is to find consistancy within the original Hebrew Scriptures which most current Bible books are lacking? Anyway why not utilize the Bible considering all words are inspired by the creator.

Let me ask you this Why is it that you do not believe in GOD?

No, it's not that I don't believe in god, I doubt His existence. I find more evidence towards Santa Clause not existing, so I don't recognize him.

I consider religion to be a crutch for people lacking in personal will. I'm somewhere between Agnosticism and Nihilism. Anyways, I have been taking up reading the bible as of late. How can I criticize something I've never read? Anyways, it's a strange novel from what I've read so far.[/b]

I am not even going to argue with you.

**Berserk Exodus** · 02-16-2004 03:23 PM

Good, because theology arguments are a waste of time and of effort.

**YULAW** · 02-16-2004 04:24 PM

Originally posted by dougdrums
OK, I'm going to try to get through this without swearing once...

Acts 2:32-36: \"32: Then Jesus God raised up, and of that we [His disciples] are witnesses. 33: Being therefore lifted high by and to the right hand of God, and having recived from the Father the promised [blessing which is the] Holy Spirit. He has made this outpouring which you yourselves both see and hear. 34: For David did not ascend into the heavens; yet he himself says, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand and share my throne 35: Till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.\"

Read the whole thing, you doof.

I felt like I didn't have to read the entire verses I mean this is self explanatory, How can you not see literal meaning of these statement. Oh Unless. You believe in the Trinity don't you? Well that would explain your confusion on this matter The Highlighted words here are what you are missguided on. These two Lords are of course Seperate entities thus the ALMIGHTY GOD talking to his son Jesus Christ. Enemies as a footstool for your feet is not directed toward David but Directed toward Jesus. What are you missing here really? Think about it.

Now on to other issues... Man this is sooo Much fun Im excited..
Okay here we go.

Originally posted by Dougdrums

Where did you pull that the human soul is not immortal from? Your... uh... butt?

Okay lets dabble with the word soul for a brief moment.

Soul: Definition: In the Bible, "soul" is translated from the Hebrew ne'pesh and the Greek psy-khe'. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that person or an animal enjoys. To many persons soul means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the Principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible Teachings.

Gen: 2:7 "God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man cae to be a living soul."(Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person.) (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered "soul" is ne'phesh.) Not to hard to figure out eh?

1 Cor. 15:45: "It is even so written: "The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."(So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.)(The Greek word here translated "soul" is the accusative case of psy-khe')

1 Pet. 3:20: "In Noah's day... a few people, that is eight souls, were carried safely through the water."(The Greek word here translated "souls" is psy-khai', the plural form of psy-khe'.)

Josh. 11:11 "They went striking evry soul[Hebrew ne'pesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword."(The soul here is shown as something that could be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)

Gen.9:5: "Besides that your blood of your souls [or, "lives";Hebrew, from ne'pesh] shall I ask back." (Here the soul is said to have blood)

I told you this was fun. Moving on.

Anyway Im not attacking I can't help your level of sensitivity, thats something you're going to have to work out yourself.

There is no dichotomy[division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepes [ne'phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person... The term [psy-khe'] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepes. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being."__New Catholic Encylopedia(19670, vol.XIII, pp.449,450

"The Hebrew term for 'soul' (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses...., signifying an 'animated being' and applicable equally to nonhuman beings....New Testament usage of psyche (soul) was comparable to nefesh."____ The New Encyclopedia Britannica(1976), Macropedia, vol.15, p.152

"The belief that the soul continues its exstence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in the Holy Scripture."____The Jewish Encyclopedia(1910), Vol.VI p.564

Your Beliefs are True Christendom's Belief Dougdrums

"The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen[died 430 c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine[died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature... His [Augustine's] doctrine...owed much (including shortcomings) to Neoplatonism."

"The Concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought.... Following Alexander's conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.'___Dictionnaire Encyclopedique de la Bible(Valence, France; 19350, edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p.557

"Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato." ___Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, P.35

I think you get the point because I can go on busting you up all day just on this soul issue. Give me something to work with you're killing me here. NEXT!!!!! Once again you have wisdom beyound your years.

**YULAW** · 02-16-2004 04:40 PM

Hey Listen up William Icedawg Lucius and everybody else you guys gotta take all that outside Im trying to teach here..BAWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

As from the Infamous word of...

ALRIGHT STOP! HAMMER TIME.
Everytime you see me the Hammers on a role
Even with my head sticking out the Zipper hole.

Wait a sec. how did that happen up there I posted twice? on the same thing Impossible.

**icedawg** · 02-16-2004 04:48 PM

you're right; this is getting off-topic. i'm going to move the off-topic posts into "The Lounge."

alright, my personal views on Heaven/hell. To me, Heaven could not be Heaven if everyone I loved in life was not there. It's fair to say that almost everyone in life is loved by someone, regardless of how they conduct themselves. Do you see where I'm going with this? I couldn't eternally rest if someone I cared greatly about was residing for eternity in hell. I could understand those who led immoral lives having to endure a sort of limbo for a transient period of time--so as to finally learn what they were supposed to learn in life--but i cannot imagine indefinite banishment.

**YULAW** · 02-16-2004 04:59 PM

Yeah I can understand that. The thing that keeps me sane on the whole concept is that (just my beliefs I don't believe that My Family will utimately go to Heaven but I believe that they will be resurrected Thats kinda my keepsake I guess. I would love for them to be in Heaven myself. And who knows I could be totally wrong about everything I've written Im just giving my opinion anyway based off of what I've learned and come to understand.

Theres a ICE-DIGGTY DAWG I Mean... ICE DEPUTY DAWG WITHIN THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

**dougdrums** · 02-16-2004 06:12 PM

Ok, yes, this is getting retarted. It's becoming arguing for the sake of arguing. I didn't think you were attacking me personally, I was just standing up for paperdoll.

**dougdrums** · 02-16-2004 06:45 PM

Quite honeslty I really didn't see how you were "busting me up". Your refrences are loose, and it is all just personal opinion.

(I'm still interested in what translation you are reading from. Not stating one makes it apper as if you were just pulling this off of some website.)

**Blulanou42** · 02-16-2004 08:42 PM

FIrst off...Doug, change your stooopid muffin, I have to scroll across the screen to read replies and it's really annoying. For Christ's sake, find a pic of a smaller muffin!!!!

OK

**Lucius** · 02-16-2004 08:50 PM

yay, it got smaller ^_^ How did you get that huge thing on anyway, isnt there like a maximum size?

**Blulanou42** · 02-16-2004 08:53 PM

HEAVEN

Here's the deal with the Bible and seemingly contradictory statements bout heaven and hell...

Both, Heaven and Hell, exist at the same time here on earth. This is called suffering.

There is no separation. We live in a world where pain and pleasure readily define eachother on whims. The balence of growth and entropy is the origional history of the Christ incarnation. Buddhists are familiar with the stories of Boddhisitavas whom saw the pain, saw the suffering and could not comprehend why it is everpreasent...the answer to this is in the old testament and other religious origion stories of heaven and hell.
(i am not going to quote the Bible simply because it is the same as many other religions that I believe are the same. People do NOT believe in religions they believe in themselves)

God, in the war for heaven when Satan first rose to power through entropy and destruction, rejoined hisself with eternity (from a more conscious ego spirit) and upon doing so found that the side effect of creation existing in nothingness was that they must balence one another. Thus, to contiue existing, God scattered entropy evenly throughout the entire universe. That is why antimatter exists in all things, just minutely small.

Thus...I say that everything is recycled energy here, nothing leaves the planet save through true transcendence...that is one level above what Christ achieved (!) -although, I think returning to help save the planet is much more honorable then going to heaen.

BUT Jesus Christ WAS NOT the true savior, the Messiah.

If the MEssiah would have come back, we would have ALL transcended to heaven! SO, that is why we all wait for the savior, to save us ALL.

We all recycle and reincarnate into infinite forms of energy throughout the planet until then. Over and over, our bodies return to the earth to be eaten as grass, eaten by plants, eaten by cows, eaten by humans, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc et cet c

so, heaven is REAL but the catch is that it is intertwined with heaven until the TRUE Boddhisitava Christ incaranation, savior of all humanity, comes to save the earth, and Eden returns...

just some thoughts, hehe

**Lucius** · 02-16-2004 08:57 PM

Makes somes sense..but I dont think we infinitely reincarnate on the earth, or this plane. There comes a point were a soul can leave the pshysical plane behind and pass on to next plane and the next and the next and so on and so forth. Achieving enlightment for several times , so we better call it semi enlightment or something. Until one reaches the core of the cosmos, there were all energy comes from and all energy shall return(we are energy but we agree on that). Returning to the core, the nothing there, complete merging with it could be compaired with total enlightment, or heaven. Long way to go there though..

**Maystar** · 02-17-2004 02:28 PM

stuff that i've read okay :-

i think that it is stated (unsure by whom) that there are seven planes of exsistance.
this world is the first.
the body is only a vehicle for the soul and when you pass away if you have learnt what is neccessary for YOUR OWN SOUL (and not what other people/souls are being taught etc) then you move onto the next plane.
if not, reincarnation occurs back onto this plane and your soul starts again (so to speak)
this is why some people believe they have past lives. this is why perhaps some people suffer terrible things to them that they believe are not warrented.

people (souls) get what they deserve, are taught what is needed and thats they way it goes. how can you move on anywhere if you haven't learnt your lesson?

there is so much more than just what you see/hear/feel now.

people miss the big picture so often.

**Lucius** · 02-17-2004 03:19 PM

7 planes,yes, some occult ideas say the same, I think I stated it some time ago aswell..you mean this 7?:

1. Physical Plane (which includes the Etheric Plane)
2. Astral Plane
3. Mental Plane
4. Buddhic Plane
5. Atmic Plane
6. Anupadaka Plane
7. Adi Plane
8 (if you count it as plane) Core

Together, the cosmos. But they are so abstract, no need to think about most of them yet

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