Thread: Consciousness shift - 2012 or not

Originally Posted by thegnome54

But it's not about fun, interesting, reassuring, or good conversational material. It's about being realistic. There is no evidence for the existence of anything non-physical. There is no NEED for anything non-physical - the physical world is complete in itself. You can make all sorts of conjecture about spirits, demons, non-physical 'minds', and all of that, but at the end of the day, it's only our knowledge of the physical world which is useful.

Have I mentioned spirits and demons?

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Now, you might argue that people use non-physical theories to achieve some useful things - like meditation. I would counter, however, that things such as meditation are merely misunderstandings - meditation might be good for you because it rearranges your neural networks, and not because it 'cleanses your soul'. With knowledge of the physical world in hand, we can achieve even greater success by honing the technique and rearranging neurons more effectively and efficiently. You really can't improve on something if you don't understand it beyond 'it cleanses your soul'.

And that's what I was just talking about. Integration.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

We came from nothing, we will go back to nothing. That is how the world goes, fun or not.

If we came from nothing, then why is a physical world at the center of your argument?

I know I'm repeating myself, but I can't type (or speak) words and convey real understanding.


We are all enlightened
whether we are aware of it or not.
We are the same consciousness
divided up into separate entities
by concepts and delusion.
But these are only mental constructions;
A product of our minds
minds more powerful than we're led to believe.
As these illusions fall away,
we are left with oneness.

When we look away,
or judge and label,
we leave a part of ourselves in the dark.
We lock ourselves into a "self."
Without this identity,
which learns to fear and grasp,
we are everything.
We are timeless.
As we find our way, more candles are lit.
The darkness clears,
all that's left is oneness.

Originally Posted by cygnus

You are right at some level. As meditators learn to see through delusion and replace destructive habits with compassion, there is a physical change in the brain. It's brain plasticity - neural connections tied to negative emotions are weakened and connections tied to positive emotions are strengthened.

--->Your brain is the seat of consciousness, and this doesn't mean consciousness IS the physical support for awareness.<--- That's really the most clear-cut I can get. The mind can affect the body just as the reverse is possible. This all ties into materialism and falsely attributing inherent existence; since this appears to be the type of reasoning you use (don't take this personally), I suggest you learn more about this for your own benefit. This is really at the heart of the topic of a shift in consciousness.

To relate this to the main topic, a shift in consciousness would be something more along the lines of the integration of our material development (something that can make our lives more comfortable, but can be used negatively), and spiritual development (something lacking in our society which supports wisdom and compassion). This is the only way we can survive and actually live and be truly happy, rather than just exist in this illusory physical world, and reacting to it as something "real" and causing a lot of suffering, exploiting our environment...

Wer's first question was why would you want our physical reality to be all there is? That's not even a shift! That's what we've focused on almost exclusively for too long. To continue on a path toward an even more mechanistic society...I can't even imagine that. You can allow the authorities to marginalize our true, non-physical nature all you want, but we have feelings and our rejection of this cannot be extinguished; it's who we are.

Exactly.

Carl Jung was able to help and even heal many mentally insane people. For more info Google "Carl Jung and mental illness".

Originally Posted by wer

Exactly.

Carl Jung was able to help and even heal many mentally insane people. For more info Google "Carl Jung and mental illness".

Yes, but if we knew the SCIENCE behind this, we could do even more.

It's like primitive tribes eating plants to cure headaches, and attributing the effects to their ancestors. Sure, it works fine. But if you cut out the nonsense about ancestors and pinpoint the specific chemical that's active, you can make a medicine hundreds of times more effective!

"And that's what I was just talking about. Integration."

No. You don't 'integrate' the story about ancestors with the knowledge of the active chemical. That story is irrelevant and useless. Likewise, if we figure out why meditation is useful, we can ignore the whole 'soul cleansing' thing, because that adds nothing to the usefulness of the technique.

"Have I mentioned spirits and demons?"

You speak of a non-physical part of the world, which is where all of this stuff fits into.

"If we came from nothing, then why is a physical world at the center of your argument?"

By "nothing", I meant "lack of awareness". My point is, you don't remember existing before you were born, so why assume that we will continue to after we die?

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=42576

I think you all might be interested in the link this thread has, especially the one about "The men behind the curtains."

And thegnome, you are misconstruing a lot of what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by cygnus

And thegnome, you are misconstruing a lot of what I'm saying.

That's better than not saying anything. You seem to be doing that yourself.

I don't really know what you mean by that, so let's just be friends

Originally Posted by cygnus

I don't really know what you mean by that, so let's just be friends

Sorry about that, I am a bit confrontational-sounding sometimes

Friends for good, despite any future keyboarded rebukes from either of us!

I meant to point out that although I may be misconstruing what you're saying, I can't really fix that unless you actually tell me what part I'm mixing up and what you really meant.

I'm not misconstruing anything on purpose, so at worst I'm just confused and maybe if you restate we'll get somewhere.

No problem.

I've said all I really can say. Only by thinking for ourselves can we be liberated. We can only give others a nudge in the right direction.

Originally Posted by cygnus

I've said all I really can say. Only by thinking for ourselves can we be liberated. We can only give others a nudge in the right direction.

I could see that working from your point of view, but from the view of a frustrated skeptic I can't help but see that as an excuse to stay vague about the subject - maybe because it really doesn't make sense and you're aware that it won't stand up to too much examination.

You seem like a rational, intelligent person. Yet you believe things which seem irrational and somewhat foolish. Logically, one must not be as it seems. I can only assume that there is some logic behind your ideas which I have yet to grasp, and it's very frustrating when people like you 'give up' and only give vague explanations for your beliefs.

All I'd really like to know from you people is what logic, what experiences, lead you to believe what you do. For example, after hearing the account of the demons and the nightmares, I can conclude that he is simply more inclined to believe in such things than I am. Not that he's gullible, but I wouldn't accept such evidence - problem solved. What I really want to hear is the evidence that would cause me to question - like the moving keys or the killing ants.

So please, if there is any reasoning which you think is sound enough to convince someone, don't hold it back for fear of this discussion going ad hominem. I'd just really like to know what makes you guys tick, so I can see whether I think our difference in opinion is something wrong with me, or something wrong with you

It's irrational and foolish because it questions the manipulative elements of religion and politics, thus it is in the best interest of the elite few to marginalize it. If I were to mention meditation to someone living on a diet of Fox news, MTV and pop music, I would probably be ridiculed in some form. I bring this up because there are influences aimed to divide people from each other and nature, and it is difficult for a teacher or friend to overcome these obstacles and ingrained thought patterns, especially if they are less experienced or tactful.

Yet I know that this is not human nature. It is conditioning and negative karma. There are also people, like yourself, who seem to have a voice inside of them and who I think aren't far off from realizing their potential. But it takes a lot of patience to connect to them. I admit that I feel a bit impatient when I think I'm not coming up with the right words.

One of the most important things I have learned is this:

To obtain true understanding one must remember a basic method. You can start with an intellectualization about a teaching, but you must progress from this to drawing a conclusion using reasoning, and finally applying it in experience. Without direct experience, there is no realization.

If I benefit from something, some way of orienting my relationship to the world, I will practice it. If I don't personally benefit, I discard it; I don't accept it at face value. Only by experiencing something for myself do I accept it.

If I don't have a lot of evidence it's because I don't have enough experience in conveying it, not because it's validity is in doubt.

For example, the experiences that really cleared up any doubt I had about something and gave me confidence in non-duality are extremely hard for me to explain. I can spend an hour trying to conceptualize something that defies conceptualization to a close friend, but because we aren't sharing the same experience we can't share the same ground. And sometimes we will try to share the same experience and there's a sense that we can completely relate to each other.

These moments of truth are so hard to connect on because they require a certain set of conditions, thoughts and prior experience. Synchronicity is the best word to use; a startling understanding of interconnectedness is one of the most personal things that can happen. You'll probably have something like this happen at some point, and then you'll know what I mean. The last time this happened to me I was laughing and crying (no substances involved), and I let go of my name and the memories that create my sense of self and became everything.

What events led up to the present moment in my life can't be shared entirely by you. You could read "1984" or watch Zeitgeist and be strongly affected by it, or not. You could read about Buddhism, or not. You could live in a hermitage, or not. It's up to you.

If you want more of my thoughts now, you can read this.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=41540

Alright, well I just have one last burning question -

Do you believe that it's possible that the mind is nothing but the physical brain? What I really want to know is what's keeping you from thinking this. "Being everything" can be a feeling conveyed by your physical brain, and the chemicals within, can it not? That may seem less impressive somehow, more pedestrian, but it really isn't - the physical brain is a beautiful thing, and we have yet to understand the complex processes within it.

The question, to make sure I'm clear, is "Do any of your experiences make it hard to believe that we could just be physical, or can they all be theoretically attributed to physical processes within the brain?"

Everything that is physical, a chair, a puppy, your brain, may appear real and solid and unchanging. But they are impermanent, and far different upon analysis. They are made of atoms, which are made of smaller particles, which have an energetic basis. Nothing is as predictable as was once thought, mathematical equations break down...

With this intellectual foundation, I drew the conclusion that all matter is connected by cause and effect, and because it preceded concepts, names, labels and materialism, a human explanation is limited. This brings me to non-locality and a more eloquent way to further this conclusion as quoted from Arnold Mindell, Ph.D.:

"I use the term entanglement in part because of its application in quantum physics. Entanglement in physics refers to the difficulty in differentiating quantum processes, that is, differentiating the state of one particle from the state of another particle. "Nonlocal" and "lack of independence" are other terms for entanglement. Nonlocality refers to two spatially separate processes that appear to be linked as if they were right next to one another.
In the case of human signals, entanglement results from the sentient state prevailing during the exchange of signals. Entanglement describes the difficulty in deciding who did what first. For example, did you smile as a reaction to my posture? Or was my posture a sentient reaction to something happening between us that preceded your smile? Since the origin of all signals is sentient, only their outer manifestations can be tagged first or second.
From one viewpoint, each of us is to blame for what happens between us; from another viewpoint, there is no blame, no single cause. Our relationship and its signal exhange is just a part of the Dreaming [another word for Tao]. By becoming lucid and conscious, we can best unfold that Dreaming in ways useful to all."

Just as with entangled human signals, the energetic basis or consciousness is entangled and only the outer, physical manifestations are commonly discernable.

As for my experience, that would be recognizing the illusory nature of our reality, and contemplation involving my senses and perceptions. Making this understanding continuous, of how what appears to be external is really something brought up in awareness, is something I'm still developing. Again, the direct experience which solidifies this understanding is very personal.

Thanks for pressing on - that helped clear up my logic for myself.

Firstly, I'm very reassured by the depth of your reasoning - you're someone I can learn much from

Originally Posted by cygnus

With this intellectual foundation, I drew the conclusion that all matter is connected by cause and effect, and because it preceded concepts, names, labels and materialism, a human explanation is limited.

This is cool! I went through this not too long ago, but no one I talked to really seemed to understand me - I was thinking that all human logic, all math, all science, relies on the concept of a 'thing'. For example, you can't make a syllogism without referring to a specific 'thing'. But 'things' don't really exist, there is no essential difference between the atoms which make up an apple and those which make up an orange, save our brain's categorization of each group. Our groupings are not objectively correct, and so the world of 'objects' we perceive could really just be considered a muddle of atoms - logic is not an objective truth.

That's probably obvious to you, but it seemed pretty deep at the time

Originally Posted by cygnus

Just as with entangled human signals, the energetic basis or consciousness is entangled and only the outer, physical manifestations are commonly discernable.

You lose me here. I don't really see how you can jump from saying that everything is technically energy, and things have much more complex interactions than we are inclined to believe to the assumption that there exists non-physical things. Energy is physical, isn't it? Granted, energy is just a model and energy itself probably doesn't really exist... but I would still consider the matter-energy duality to be physical. In this light, despite inexplicable entanglements and chaotic relationships and all of that - isn't that all still physical?

Originally Posted by cygnus

As for my experience, that would be recognizing the illusory nature of our reality, and contemplation involving my senses and perceptions. Making this understanding continuous, of how what appears to be external is really something brought up in awareness, is something I'm still developing. Again, the direct experience which solidifies this understanding is very personal.

Now, are you referring to your perception of reality as 'illusory', or reality itself (which I assume to exist objectively outside of my perception)? I can understand that the world we see is illusory, but that doesn't (to me, at least) imply the existence of anything non-physical. For example, we are incapable of sensing infrared light, and our main sense is based on the somewhat arbitrary characteristic of the way objects interact with photons, resulting in strange 'glitches' in our world - shadows, rainbows, the color pink, etc. But how do you go from there to assuming that not everything is physical?

Originally Posted by cygnus

Thanks for pressing on - that helped clear up my logic for myself.

Thanks for explaining more, I'm very glad to see that you're ahead of me and not behind

Ok, I'm happy we've got some common ground. The funny thing is, no matter how much you may disagree with someone on the outside, this is really just obscuring the inner feelings that matter. Like if someone feels empty or lonely and is outwardly agressive, this behavior is self-destructive but can be re-evaluated by that person. This is something I see as being important in the near future as we discover how we are misusing our communication as emotional states become more difficult to get across, but divisive language grows. Our language just doesn't have the right words for a lot of things and can be pretty ineffective.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

You lose me here. I don't really see how you can jump from saying that everything is technically energy, and things have much more complex interactions than we are inclined to believe to the assumption that there exists non-physical things. Energy is physical, isn't it? Granted, energy is just a model and energy itself probably doesn't really exist... but I would still consider the matter-energy duality to be physical. In this light, despite inexplicable entanglements and chaotic relationships and all of that - isn't that all still physical?

Again, here I think we're lacking the right word and replacing it with energy. In Tibetan, a term roughly meaning "pure and total consciousness" is used, but the way "consciousness" is applied in our language doesn't really correlate. We both agree that the world of objects we perceive to have inherent existence is far from the truth, and I think I can say "inherent existence" knowing that you understand what I'm referring to. Now let me explain the term "pure and total consciousness." This is the entirety of ALL phenomena; keep in mind that the divisions of subjects and objects are part of the physical manifestation we've been discussing. It is total because it encompasses everything from the gross to very subtle; gross being at the level of a chair, very subtle being at the atomic level and so on. It is pure because it is unborn and cannot be altered. It is unborn because it cannot be altered.

This is from my post on another thread that is relevant:

"Let's use the ocean as a metaphor for the universe. At the surface, things are turbulent and chaotic -- impermanence is a natural law. There are times of confusion but there are also times of calm. No matter how unpredictable things near the surface are, at depth there is always stability. Nothing can be done to alter this quality. What we seem to forget is that this ocean is made of the same foundation: water.

At the surface there is fear, and there is grasping for something that can keep us afloat. In this "chaos" we accept comforting from the political and religious institutions, but this often serves to deepen our conditioning and we continue to fear and to desire what we're told will keep us safe.


Because our true nature is so close, so tied into our experience, it is easy to overlook it."

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Now, are you referring to your perception of reality as 'illusory', or reality itself (which I assume to exist objectively outside of my perception)? I can understand that the world we see is illusory, but that doesn't (to me, at least) imply the existence of anything non-physical. For example, we are incapable of sensing infrared light, and our main sense is based on the somewhat arbitrary characteristic of the way objects interact with photons, resulting in strange 'glitches' in our world - shadows, rainbows, the color pink, etc. But how do you go from there to assuming that not everything is physical?

I'm referring to our perceptions, our true nature being what is not illusory. This ties into your first question. Not everything is physical because what we attribute as "physical" isn't all there is, as we have found. It is dependent upon the categorizations that we agreed are limited. As far as perceptions go, what I've learned is the importance of mindfulness (being present and aware, not lost in thoughts and judgements), and that our senses are a source of wisdom if they aren't related to judging and dualities, because they point out our innate, non-dual awareness. This is why the sky is such a significant metaphor in Dzogchen, because it represents emptiness (of inherent existence) and luminosity (innate awareness).

When I say "awareness" in this context, you'll probably bring up your claim that "you don't remember anything before you were born." Well, you could say the same thing about a lot of dreams. My mom remembers part of a past life, as well as a lot of advanced spiritual practicioners; this really can't be denied. It's just that obscurations of this consciousness separate us from it's nature.

A consciousness shift in 2012 is inevitable, like a self fulfilling prophecy.
There are 2 possible outcomes here.

A. There really is going to be some sort of mass consciousness shift.

B. 2012 rolls around and nothing happens. All hippies realize what a load of crap all that nonsense was, and give up on it. Thus, a shift in consciousness.



So either way, it's going to happen.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

A consciousness shift in 2012 is inevitable, like a self fulfilling prophecy.
There are 2 possible outcomes here.

A. There really is going to be some sort of mass consciousness shift.

B. 2012 rolls around and nothing happens. All hippies realize what a load of crap all that nonsense was, and give up on it. Thus, a shift in consciousness.



So either way, it's going to happen.

Yes, but one 'shift' involves all of mankind, whilst the other only affects a modest smattering of delusional 'hippies'.

I would hardly call the latter a 'shift in consciousness', just a 'disillusionment'.

Originally Posted by awakened_mind

We are keeping this "realistic". The tibet monks would astral project into the future, each getting the same result.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

You really should get your facts strait before you come on to a forum based on a prophecy of life as we know it coming to an end and declaring something "non realistic".

I never declared that non-realistic. Aliens visiting us I find among the realistic possible events taking place.

The main reason I'm interesting in 2012 is because this prediction goes way back, and now monks from Tibet support it as well (something I did not know). Predictions like Y2K, or 06/06/06, were all stupid and made up within our own lifetime, and honestly had no spiritual basis behind them. But the 2012 prediction is not like that... this goes WAY back.

Originally Posted by blade5x

Predictions like Y2K, or 06/06/06, were all stupid and made up within our own lifetime, and honestly had no spiritual basis behind them.

Your 'logic' scares me. A lot.

Alright, just to let everyone know I've officially started practicing psychokinesis again. Its been two days so far and I've found that my skill at spinning the psi wheel is actually pretty good (I'm not surprised, as I've gone on and off practicing it for around 3 years), so I've decided that starting tomarrow I'm going to begin practicing rolling pens. Once I've had some success with this (I would guess around 1-2 weeks), I'll gladly put up a couple of videos. I don't see any point in posting a psi wheel video because it can be so easily faked, and even though moving pens can be easily faked as well, I'll do my best to show on the video that nothing was set up.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

Your 'logic' scares me. A lot.

The part where I said June 6th, 2006 had no spiritual basis behind it? If so you might as well believe that everywhere you see number 666 is the sign of the devil.

I don't know about you, but when I was younger, I didn't hear about Y2K until the late 90s. I even remember testing that theory out on an old computer in my house when I was like 10. I set the clock the December 31, 11:59PM 99 and than I ran out of the room because I was afraid of the possibility of the computer blowing up. After a few minutes I went back in, saw the year had reset to 00, so that settled my mind. I actually proved that a computer would not go berserk and die before Y2K came around, and I'm sure many others did as well. And 06/06/06, I don't think I heard about, or let me say correctly - read about until sometime in 2005. No one I knew in real life had told me about this, because no one probably knew. It was something I read off an online forum... maybe this one, that theory I just didn't even bother to care about - for the reason above this paragraph.

I shouldn't have called them stupid, what I really meant to say is that Y2K and 06/06/06 were just very lacking when compared to 2012 IMO.

Originally Posted by wer

Alright, just to let everyone know I've officially started practicing psychokinesis again. Its been two days so far and I've found that my skill at spinning the psi wheel is actually pretty good (I'm not surprised, as I've gone on and off practicing it for around 3 years), so I've decided that starting tomarrow I'm going to begin practicing rolling pens. Once I've had some success with this (I would guess around 1-2 weeks), I'll gladly put up a couple of videos. I don't see any point in posting a psi wheel video because it can be so easily faked, and even though moving pens can be easily faked as well, I'll do my best to show on the video that nothing was set up.

Alright exciting! I'm waiting!

Originally Posted by blade5x

I shouldn't have called them stupid, what I really meant to say is that Y2K and 06/06/06 were just very lacking when compared to 2012 IMO.

I wasn't talking about calling them stupid, I was just thinking that it's frightening to base the validity of these predictions by *how long ago* they were made and *how "spiritual"* the dates are. How can a date be 'spiritual'?! 2012 is the end of the Mayan calendar, right? That's not spiritual, it's a coincidence of mathematics.

Good luck, wer! I was wondering, have you tried doing the psi-wheel under a Tupperware? If I were you, I would watch it for about two minutes while it's under there, to be sure that it won't move by itself, and then try to move it. I mean, you can do what you want, but I think that should help you isolate your abilities, assuming that they do exist.

I would watch it for about two minutes while it's under there, to be sure that it won't move by itself.

The act of observing could have a telekinetic impact. I'd suggest filming a minute or so and while the camera is on, leave the room. This has worked better for me.

You should make a psychokinesis tutorial, wer. I would read it