Thread: Sould corporal punishment be outlawed?

Originally Posted by mini0991

They are the same because children are no less of a person! They don't warrant having physical pain inflicted upon them any more than one's wife does, because they are both people with rights! Of prime importance, the inalienable right from cruel and unusual punishment, of which infliction of physical pain falls under.

First of all, we are not talking about beating your children or abusing them for unwarranted reasons. We are talking about discipline by the parent to the child, not by the husband to the wife, or the state to the criminal.

Second, the "inalienable right from cruel and unusual punishment", or the Eighth Amendment applies to criminals in a court of law, not to domestic discipline (or even abuse, for that matter):

The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights which prohibits the federal government from imposing excessive bail, excessive fines or cruel and unusual punishments.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

First of all, we are not talking about beating your children or abusing them for unwarranted reasons. We are talking about discipline by the parent to the child, not by the husband to the wife, or the state to the criminal.

Second, the "inalienable right from cruel and unusual punishment", or the Eighth Amendment applies to criminals in a court of law, not to domestic discipline (or even abuse, for that matter):

this^ qft.



Once in a while I think a spanking will teach a kid a lesson, far more effectively than a "stern talking to" You are acting as though there is some thin line between a spanking, and a full out beating. A quick smack on the butt isn't even in the same realm, and more often than not the parent does not want to do it, but feels as though its best.

Spanking is wholly unnecessary, and is a symptom of bad parenting. A good parent (like mine) should never have to lay a hand on their child. There are far better ways to solve such problems.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Spanking is wholly unnecessary, and is a symptom of bad parenting. A good parent (like mine) should never have to lay a hand on their child. There are far better ways to solve such problems.

Sometimes it depends on the child. You cannot speak in absolutes because Child A may respond well to non-physical tactics, while Child B ignores it and continues doing his/her wrong acts.

I repeat, what will you do with Child B: send him to the corner? Or better yet, kneel down "to their level" and plead with them, or as CrackTheSkye said: "Give them a stern talking-to"?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Explain how they are the same.

Fuck you and you're annoying fucking bullshit. In every topic of every post you write shit that does nothing to contribute to the thread. You mosy around your non-existent explanations to act like there is some thought behind your words. You say some shit like:

"A husband hitting a wife and a parent spanking a child are two different things. Two VERY different things." Without providing an explanation as to why you think this is. Naturally I ask you, and first you want me to explain a point I never made in the first place. You should be used to "explain" by now, having been asked to explain your ludicrous and delusional ideals that you smear all over this forum. It's no wonder you ask for your threads to be locked, and say shit like "I refuse to participate."

You are a hopeless schmuck.

Originally Posted by mini0991

They are the same because children are no less of a person! They don't warrant having physical pain inflicted upon them any more than one's wife does, because they are both people with rights!

Yes they are, of course, still human. Enough of that silly nonsense. However, they are not yet fully developed, which puts them lower in status. Extra measures must be taken in order to see that they grow up into a good human being.

I'm not talking about slapping kids silly, or kicking them around, I'm talking about a well emaning and respectful spanking. Not done out of hate, spite, or anger, but out of devotion and care.

Of course, once they are old enough to be reasoned with, then of course, drop spanking! But until then, you cannot reason with them like you can reason with a full grown adult. Do you realize how silly what you are saying is? Try walking past the toy section in Walmart, and then reasoning with your four year old about how logical it is to wait for Christmas. It does not work the same way.

Punishment should of course be done respectfully. Don't discredit the child, or anything.

Wife, and child are two VERY different scenarios.

Originally Posted by Mario92

A good parent (like mine) should never have to lay a hand on their child.

My parents spanked me, and I love them to death! I'm GLAD they spanked me. I can tell you what, I would have gotten into some pretty bad scrapes by now if it weren't for their help.

I learned many valuable lessons that probably save my life. Like the lesson about playing with matches, running into the road (I got within a foot of an accident, no kidding) pulling down my pants in public, and the list would go on.

Some kids need it less than others. I know myself well, and I know it was the only method that would work for me.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

You are a hopeless schmuck

WHOA!!! Somebody is angry! You didn't even answer the question. My point was, unless you can explain how they are different, I needn't explain how they are. (Which I have in this post)

Way to debate.

Originally Posted by Noogah

WHOA!!! Somebody is angry! You didn't even answer the question. My point was, unless you can explain how they are different, I needn't explain how they are. (Which I have in this post)

Way to debate.

Thanks for proving my point.

You are asking me to explain a point I never made. All I asked you to do was explain your reasoning. And you still never specifically explained why "Wife, and child are two VERY different scenarios."

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Sometimes it depends on the child. You cannot speak in absolutes because Child A may respond well to non-physical tactics, while Child B ignores it and continues doing his/her wrong acts.

I repeat, what will you do with Child B: send him to the corner? Or better yet, kneel down "to their level" and plead with them, or as CrackTheSkye said: "Give them a stern talking-to"?

No, you get real scary, real quick. None of that sissy-ass, whining-pleading bullshit. I'm talking tall, scary, booming voice. You'll never do it again.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I'm not talking about slapping kids silly, or kicking them around, I'm talking about a well emaning and respectful spanking. Not done out of hate, spite, or anger, but out of devotion and care.

Spanking is never "respectful". It shows disrespect.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Of course, once they are old enough to be reasoned with, then of course, drop spanking! But until then, you cannot reason with them like you can reason with a full grown adult. Do you realize how silly what you are saying is? Try walking past the toy section in Walmart, and then reasoning with your four year old about how logical it is to wait for Christmas. It does not work the same way.

You can reason with a 3 year old, and if you're a good parent your kids will respect you enough that a talking too suffices. Besides, mostly it's about making your kids understand why what they did was wrong. That's the good way to learn.

Originally Posted by Noogah

My parents spanked me, and I love them to death! I'm GLAD they spanked me. I can tell you what, I would have gotten into some pretty bad scrapes by now if it weren't for their help.

My parents never lay a hand on me, and yet I've not been in any "pretty bad scrapes". Why'd you need spanking, you say?

Originally Posted by Noogah

I learned many valuable lessons that probably save my life. Like the lesson about playing with matches, running into the road (I got within a foot of an accident, no kidding) pulling down my pants in public, and the list would go on.

My parents simply explained to me that running in the road and playing with matches were dangerous, and that I should always be careful. Worked like a charm.

Originally Posted by Noogah

WHOA!!! Somebody is angry! You didn't even answer the question. My point was, unless you can explain how they are different, I needn't explain how they are. (Which I have in this post)

He didn't answer the question, because he posted a question first and you responded with the oh-so serious "no, you explain it".

Originally Posted by Mario92

No, you get real scary, real quick. None of that sissy-ass, whining-pleading bullshit. I'm talking tall, scary, booming voice. You'll never do it again.

What really works is if the child just doesn't want to disappoint you by stealing or such.

I think government officials who get caught stealing taxpayer's money should be declared traitors and hung.

Originally Posted by Odd_Nonposter

Physical punishment can be effective when administered properly.

My mother never spanked me--she licked my ears. Literally. With her tongue. Caused no lasting harm, but it always thoroughly skeeved me out.

This. But I will say that "administering it properly" is highly subjective and leaves lots of room open for abuse.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Yes they are, of course, still human. Enough of that silly nonsense. However, they are not yet fully developed, which puts them lower in status. Extra measures must be taken in order to see that they grow up into a good human being.

I'm not talking about slapping kids silly, or kicking them around, I'm talking about a well emaning and respectful spanking. Not done out of hate, spite, or anger, but out of devotion and care.

Of course, once they are old enough to be reasoned with, then of course, drop spanking! But until then, you cannot reason with them like you can reason with a full grown adult. Do you realize how silly what you are saying is? Try walking past the toy section in Walmart, and then reasoning with your four year old about how logical it is to wait for Christmas. It does not work the same way.

Punishment should of course be done respectfully. Don't discredit the child, or anything.

Wife, and child are two VERY different scenarios.

In that case, perhaps healthcare workers should be permitted to smack the mentally and developmentally disabled as well. Essentially, they have the minds of children. Your logic is still flawed.

Originally Posted by khh

What really works is if the child just doesn't want to disappoint you by stealing or such.

This, too. My parents could play the guilt card like no one's business.

Just did some research. Croatia (my country) has outlawed it last year.

"Corporal punishment of children is prohibited in all settings (home, schools, penal systems, alternative care) in 19 out of the Council of Europe’s 47 member states: Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Latvia, Moldova Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden, Ukraine."

http://www.coe.int/t/transversalproj...rogress_en.asp

Originally Posted by Luanne

Just did some research. Croatia (my country) has outlawed it last year.

"Corporal punishment of children is prohibited in all settings (home, schools, penal systems, alternative care) in 19 out of the Council of Europe’s 47 member states: Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Latvia, Moldova Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden, Ukraine."

http://www.coe.int/t/transversalproj...rogress_en.asp

Kudos to Europe.

*facepalms at America's barbarianism*

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

And you still never specifically explained why "Wife, and child are two VERY different scenarios."

Originally Posted by Noogah

Of course, once they are old enough to be reasoned with, then of course, drop spanking! But until then, you cannot reason with them like you can reason with a full grown adult. Do you realize how silly what you are saying is? Try walking past the toy section in Walmart, and then reasoning with your four year old about how logical it is to wait for Christmas. It does not work the same way.

Originally Posted by khh

Spanking is never "respectful". It shows disrespect.

I very much disagree. It can be done in a way in which it is disrespectful, or respectfully. Doing it in a mature, controlled, and regrettable manner(by this, I mean you let the child know you get no enjoyment from it) it can indeed be disrespectful.

Disrespectful: "GIT OVA HERE BOY AN PULL DOWN YO BRICHES AND IM GONNA BEAT THAT THERE HIDE A YOURS 'TIL YOU KNOWS HOW TA RESPECT ME PROPER LAK!" (Believe me, I know the type. )

Respectful: "This is the second time you [put crime here] You know what has to be done, so let's get it over with now."

I don't quite see how the second one is so terribly dreadful.

You can reason with a 3 year old

Obviously you have absolutely no experience.

Originally Posted by khh

your kids will respect you enough that a talking too suffices

In some matters, yes. In others, no.

Originally Posted by khh

Besides, mostly it's about making your kids understand why what they did was wrong.

Doesn't work sometimes.
"Honey bumpkins? Don't you realize that it's simply illogical to expect things right away? Shhh. Please hush now. Your embarassing mommy. Please! Please!? Maybe we can get some candy when we get home! Okay, the how about that little toy? Please quite down! Alright I'll get the toy!!"

Originally Posted by khh

My parents never lay a hand on me, and yet I've not been in any "pretty bad scrapes".

Originally Posted by khh

Worked like a charm.

Lay, as in, present tense? Just how old are you? or did you mean "LAID a hand on me"? Anyway, addressing the topic...

Originally Posted by Noogah

Some kids need it less than others. I know myself well, and I know it was the only method that would work for me.

Originally Posted by mini0991

In that case, perhaps healthcare workers should be permitted to smack the mentally and developmentally disabled as well

Ridiculous. Kids are not "disabled" They are mentally skilled enough to equate the disappointment of their parents, and even pain with wrong doing. The mentally disabled are disabled, and are no longer developing.


I'm not bitter at my parents for spanking me. I know how they did it, I know why they did it, and I know that it worked. I know it worked well, and it didn't "traumatize" me.

When you make kids think that getting disciplined is traumatizing, they'll be traumatized by it. Fortunately, my parents spared me the delusion.

I think its wrong, and its not very effective and there are many better ways. However, I don't think we need laws for it. Because the government has no right to tell parents how to raise their children.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Respectful: "This is the second time you [put crime here] You know what has to be done, so let's get it over with now."

Well, that's certainly less disrespectful, but striking someone is not showing people respect.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I don't quite see how the second one is so terribly dreadful.

The spanking/hitting part.

Originally Posted by Noogah

In some matters, yes. In others, no.

In which matters doesn't it work? Cause most of the people I know are perfectly decent citizens, without ever having been spanked by their parents.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Doesn't work sometimes.
"Honey bumpkins? Don't you realize that it's simply illogical to expect things right away? Shhh. Please hush now. Your embarassing mommy. Please! Please!? Maybe we can get some candy when we get home! Okay, the how about that little toy? Please quite down! Alright I'll get the toy!!"

Now that's another prime example of bad parenting. Putting the child in charge. But that's not talking to them, that's pleading with them.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Lay, as in, present tense? Just how old are you? or did you mean "LAID a hand on me"? Anyway, addressing the topic...

Laid, yeah.

Originally Posted by Noogah

When you make kids think that getting disciplined is traumatizing, they'll be traumatized by it. Fortunately, my parents spared me the delusion.

It's not necessarily the discipline in itself that's bad, it's the way chosen to enforce it.

Originally Posted by khh

but striking someone is not showing people respect.

Can you give me a form of punishment that IS respectful?

Stop using the word strike. To strike is to lash out. That is also wrong.

Originally Posted by khh

The spanking/hitting part.

What form of discipline is not unpleasent? Obviously the part where the punishment is actually administered is going to be painful, physically, or mentally. But the attitude in which it is delivered ultimately determines wether or not itw as done respectfully.

Originally Posted by khh

Cause most of the people I know are perfectly decent citizens, without ever having been spanked by their parents.

You actually asked them? That seems an odd topic of conversation. Are you quite certain that the topic was ever even adressed?

Originally Posted by khh

But that's not talking to them, that's pleading with them.

Oh, I know the results of this as well.

"No. Put the toy down. You can't always expect everything right away. You can get it for Christmas. No! Junior, no means no! I already told you, you can have it for Christmas. Stop crying please, your making everybody stare. Junior, I'm SERIOUS! Stop embarassing yourself! STOP CRYING NOW! Fine, you'll get No toys for Christmas!! Cut it out! I'm talking to your father when we get home!! CUT IT OUT NOW!!!"

Excessively yelling isn't a very decent approach either. And then agin, it depends on the kid. Some kids will comply. Others, and I am thinking one right now, would do just what the above dialouge shows.

Originally Posted by khh

it's the way chosen to enforce it.

I have to wonder. Which way is worst anyways? Ten minute time outs, yelling, speaking in a firm voice, snapping fingers, being loud, taking away money/priveleges, grounding for a week, or a quick five second spanking?

It seems that the first methods are actually the ones that cause the child and parent to grow farther apart, more angry and bitter. Also, why put them through such long torture? Get it over with fast, quickly with a spanking, and it's over just like that.

Which IS worse? Mental/emotional pain, or physical pain?

I completely believe in spankings when done the right way. i was spanked as a child when I did something wrong and I turned out alright. I don't really remember the times when i was sent to my room or placed in time out but i do remember the spankings. I have found that even a light tap on the behind (and i mean the lightest) will get a strong point across then 10 minutes of time out.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying bruise the kid but a good open hand to the bottom three or four times will get the job done.
Maybe if more parents properly spanked their kids, there would be less thugs running around today

For those who disagree with spanking children, do you have children? what are your forms of punishment?

I don't have kids... but the thing is that you don't need to punish if you teach the child respect.

I don't have kids... but the thing is that you don't need to punish if you teach the child respect.

No disrespect towards you dude but by that statement, I can tell you really don't have kids LOL... Kids will try to push your buttons, will try to see how much they can get away with etc.... it is all disrespectful. If you have kids and they have never been disrespectful to you, I would LOVE to know your secrets LOL

Now don't get me wrong, we teach our child respect and she is pretty respectful but as with all kids, she has her moments. The naughty rug or time out chair or taking toys away doesn't work. it may for some kids, but not all kids.

There are other ways to discourage a certain behavior in children and people aside from physical pain, and I believe they should become more common. As a victim of child abuse, I hold to the perception that the concept of "crossing the line" in corporal punishment can be incredibly subjective. You can make anybody respect you without violence. If you don't have the effort to find out how to make your children respect you without hitting them, maybe you shouldn't have children.