Thread: How should I deal with my religious mom?

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

My question to statements like this is: what's the point? If there's no evidence (read: reason) to believe, then why do it?

Reason is not the only criterion to live life by. Love for example is not reasonable. Hope often is not based on reason. Optimism defys reason. A person who basis his or her decisions on reason alone is more likely to be a sociopath in my opinion. Emotions and feelings can trump reason at times, or at least counterbalance it. Also while I do not have proof that would hold up to the scrutiny of science or could or even should be used to convince anyone else, I personally have felt God's presence - sure, you could say that that could have been illusion, but I choose to believe that it was not. Faith means believing without the need for proof, and for some people that is impossible or undesirable, while for others faith provides a deeper level of meaning to our lives. I know I cannot convince you to believe and I do not want to. Unlike many believers who try to convert, I believe that when God chooses to he will prove his existence to those who do not believe in him, but tolerance is a high virtue for me and I think that some atheists will reach heaven before some Christians do because one can be a good person and not believe in God in this lifetime. However, for me believing in a loving God and using his moral guidelines as a basis for my decision making (though not without questioning what is right and wrong) has helped me live a better life and be kinder to others I believe.

Originally Posted by Abra

I'm sorry, but my mom's beliefs are indoctrination, uninformed, and unhealthy. I see that as wrong. I want my sister to think for herself. Mom may find that threatening, but I don't care. My sister knows not to talk about our conversations to mom.

Ok, who am I to judge you for that after all? I too escaped indoctrination so I understand the desire to do so. And I actually recently had a conversation with my husband which basically revolved around: I know that as parents we should not contradict eachother, but given my family background I just cannot accept something you told one of our sons, and I feel so strongly about it that I cannot let it go. And our son is 4. So yes, I do understand where you are coming from. Sometimes there is no right and wrong approach though but only shades of grey, and really I cannot judge you based on the shade of grey you choose because you are immersed in your situation and you are more qualified to know which approach is the best in your circumstances, given that there is no 100% right approach.

What I'm trying to understand here, if it wasn't clear, is how belief in the absence of evidence is at all beneficial or relevant. Hope and optimism aren't acceptable answers, since neither hope nor optimism require a positive belief that the outcome desired will actually come true. I could be hopeful that tomorrow, I will become a multi-billionaire, without actually expecting to become one.

Is it just for comfort? Does it make you feel "good" inside to believe that a loving God exists? If so, how do you reconcile this with the knowledge that there's no rationale behind the belief? If you don't know, or if there's a significant chance you're wrong, from where is the comfort derived? I don't know about you, but for me, the comfort somethings brings is immediately cheapened by the idea that the thing bringing the comfort is flawed or just plain nonsense.

No it is not just comfort. What you do not understand is that when I say "reason is overrated" I really mean it: for me relying on reason over faith and emotion is as undesirable as being unreasonable and irrational is to you. I have faith. I do not just have a comfort that makes me feel good: for me my faith is fundamental without it I would feel lost and broken and desolate. I would not be myself without my faith. I would loose the firm foundation that grounds me as a person, and reason for me would be an insufficient substitute which would not even be enough to provide comfort let alone meaning for life. But that is me, that is how I feel about faith, and that is how I feel about reason. I know that you cannot understand this any more than I can understand your position, but I believe that we do not have to reach an understanding. I am not going to try to persuade you to change your mind: both because I realize I cannot, and because I do not believe I have the right to do so - I do not have a right to make you question your beliefs if you do not wish to question them yourself.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

No it is not just comfort. What you do not understand is that when I say "reason is overrated" I really mean it: for me relying on reason over faith and emotion is as undesirable as being unreasonable and irrational is to you.

The only thing I could say to that, in this case, is that I hope nobody ever comes to you for medical advice. Your position is nonsensical.

I have faith. I do not just have a comfort that makes me feel good: for me my faith is fundamental without it I would feel lost and broken and desolate. I would not be myself without my faith. I would loose the firm foundation that grounds me as a person, and reason for me would be an insufficient substitute which would not even be enough to provide comfort let alone meaning for life.

People will say similar things all the time, then they'll end up deconverting somehow, and go on to live normal, happy lives. Besides, your foundation is hardly firm if all it's based on is wishful thinking.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

The only thing I could say to that, in this case, is that I hope nobody ever comes to you for medical advice. Your position is nonsensical.



People will say similar things all the time, then they'll end up deconverting somehow, and go on to live normal, happy lives. Besides, your foundation is hardly firm if all it's based on is wishful thinking.

I will stop discussing this with you because there is absolutely no point in continuing this conversation, and I consider your comments to be rude.

Its been a long time since I posted anything here but I wanted to say something to this post because I dealt with a similar situation and I know how heart-wrenching it can be.

My parents both came from abusive homes and joined the church because that was the only place where people had ever taken them in and been kind to them. My parents weren't awful, but they had an inability to ever see that one could be spiritual outside of the church. Any kind of comments I made questioning the church were met with negativity and/or intolerance.

Once I got out of the house, I was able to dump their BS and set up good boundaries with them. As my parents have gotten older they actually admitted that the reason I am not religious is because they pushed it on me too hard. So there is hope. Unfortunately that is hard to find while you still live with them.

My first advice would be to make sure you have plans to go to college or a some other training that gets you out of the house as soon as possible. I left home early and I know a lot of folks don't understand what it means to navigate your late-teens/early twenties without any parental support. However it can be done and it was worth it for me although I certainly made a few mistakes along the way.

Second, I would advise trying to see the best in the christian teachings. My strategy, while I was living with them, was to be a better christian than they were. I read the bible, tried to understand it, and talked with them about how Jesus was a model of compassion and individuality (I know someone here might try to flame me for that). The point is that when they would try to say they were worried I was going to hell, I could honestly tell them I loved Jesus as much as they did. That made them leave me alone (of course I didn't mention that I loved Buddha just as much.) The point is that sometimes the only way out is through, as some occultists say. I felt that it was my karma to rise above these people I had been born to and so I took it as a challenge to show them I could see the essence of what christianity was as well as they could. I don't know if this resonates with you or not, but I decided that perhaps it was my karma to experience some of the dogma and face it with a smile.

Don't waste time asking rhetorical questions, your mom won't take them rhetorically. Just state what you understand the essence of Christianity to be and say that is what you believe. (It can be love, acceptance, non-judgementalness, etc). Your mom will still think you are naive and wrong-headed, but maybe she won't be threatened by it.

I would say that there is some level of neurosis in your mother's behavior, but you also have to realize, you are not qualified to cure her; she has to want to cure herself.

One of the best practices you can have when dealing with a neurotic person is to laugh first before you respond to anything they say. Sense of humor is paramount. If you can't pause to smile, don't waste time responding - it will only drain you. And I don't mean you laugh at them in a derogatory way, just laugh to yourself at the situation. If they won't let you do that, then it is an abusive situation and you need outside help. If you can, try to be curious about what makes her say things. Anytime you get angry, you are slipping back into your "fight or flight" mind, which is not the most intelligent part of yourself. When she says something designed to push your buttons, try to experience a sense of curiosity for what it tells you about what influences her or what limits her. Curiosity and humor are your best weapons here.

Don't know if any of that helps, but good luck and know that you will be a stronger person for being true to your own path.

Olyseus, I couldn't agree more: about Jesus's individuality and tolerance (he associated with tax collectors, prostitutes, mentally ill, Samaritans, women - which during his time would have been radical - and he did not belittle them, he respected them and they learned from oneanother - yes, Jesus learned from sinners even, a Samaritan once "made" him change his mind about helping for example); about moving out of home (smart move); and about finding humor in the situation (always a good idea). Good advice all of it in my opinion. Joanna

lel, I am already out of home. I'm just back temporarily, for my longest stay for years, to get my wisdom teeth pulled on their dental while I still can. Graduating with a double major in May, have a temp job, now I just have to find a job that uses my degree (not too hard). I tried reading the Bible, and took notes, but couldn't even get through the first five books. I have academic interests that are more important to me than confusing fiction right now.

Leaving today. Don't know whether to focus my efforts on my mom or my sister. I think I've talked to mom enough, and she'll bring it up again only next time we visit. I will refuse to discuss it on the phone (that never ends well, she starts it and hangs up quickly). Maybe my sister needs more guidance... She just got "caught" for having "cam sex" in the middle of the night with "older men." Mom literally dragged her out of her bed (ouch), wrenched her phone from her hand, and started screeching, "MY DAUGHTER IS A WHORE! I DON'T BELIEVE YOU! I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!" It was 2 AM.

Turns out, the kid was offering her lunch money, since mom forgot to give her her lunch. But mom thought that was code for "sex money." They are in love, but my sister has been trying to make it clear that her parents are weird, so she does not want to date until after she leaves them, in college. Pity, because she says she 'loves' him, but doesn't want to kiss if they haven't dated (he wants a kiss).

Decisions, decisions. I have only a few hours left until I go back, and Dad and I have already had great discussions (he's republican conservative, we were able to civilly discuss energy, wikileaks, and gay marriage).

Ah, the old Testament is maybe not the best place to start reading the Bible. Yes, it is horribly weird. I once started reading the Bible from the beginning and I am not sure I was able to get through the first five books either. This does not negate all of the Bible though necessarily. If you want to give it a try again, start with the new testament: Mark's gospel is the shortest, and thus probably a good place to start.

Btw, The Bible is an agglomeration of many writings by many people written over a long time, and each of the writers had his own biases, interpretations and agendas, and the quality of the various writings varies a lot.

EDIT: I just thought of an analogy: let's assume you had never witnessed a car accident yourself, but you had access to a compilation of a bunch of eyewitness reports of car accidents. Would you assume that car accidents cannot be real because two people who witness the same accident will never describe it the same, and some accident reports are clearly falsified because someone wanted to get insurance money for example? How would you decide which accident reports were true, or would you not believe in car accidents unless you witnessed one yourself? And if you did how would you decide that it was not a hallucination brought about by your having read all those fictitious car accident reports in the past?

Abra,

It sounds like you are a fairly level-headed person. From what you say it seems that you are trying to be as reasonable as you can with your mother.

You are working towards putting some space between yourself and your mother. I hope that after a few years, your mother will realize she was too dogmatic with you. That is what happened to me and my parents. They literally apologized for pushing me away from church after I had been out of the house for 15 years. Don't know if that would be possible in your situation, but time can change things.

I also do not mean to say that you should read the bible or try what I tried. Every situation is different. You should only do what is authentic for you. I just mean that sometimes you can sidestep dogmatic people by having some interest in what they believe but showing that you understand it in a different way. This has worked well for me all my life, whenever I run across dogmatic churchgoers, I agree with them that Jesus is a mythological archetype of love and talk about how I accept the kind of people I believe he would have accepted: prostitutes, tax collectors, gay folks, poor folks and so on. Of course when I was a teenager living at home, I had to leave out the mythological part to find common ground. Again, I don't know if that will work for you in your unique situation. It's just what I tried.

I think one of the most important things that helped me was the idea that there was some meaning or karma to me being in that situation. I'm certain I was there to learn something, and so when I got in arguments with my parents, I tried to step back and ask myself "what am I supposed to be learning from this?" Again, I think you can emerge a stronger person because of your experience.

Originally Posted by JoannaB

Ah, the old Testament is maybe not the best place to start reading the Bible. Yes, it is horribly weird. I once started reading the Bible from the beginning and I am not sure I was able to get through the first five books either. This does not negate all of the Bible though necessarily. If you want to give it a try again, start with the new testament: Mark's gospel is the shortest, and thus probably a good place to start.

Btw, The Bible is an agglomeration of many writings by many people written over a long time, and each of the writers had his own biases, interpretations and agendas, and the quality of the various writings varies a lot.

EDIT: I just thought of an analogy: let's assume you had never witnessed a car accident yourself, but you had access to a compilation of a bunch of eyewitness reports of car accidents. Would you assume that car accidents cannot be real because two people who witness the same accident will never describe it the same, and some accident reports are clearly falsified because someone wanted to get insurance money for example? How would you decide which accident reports were true, or would you not believe in car accidents unless you witnessed one yourself? And if you did how would you decide that it was not a hallucination brought about by your having read all those fictitious car accident reports in the past?

No, I still want to read the Torah first. My partner is secular-Jewish, and I'd rather put an effort into that religion first. My partner has not been celebrating the holidays, and I'm hoping my atheism isn't what's suppressing somehow meaningful tradition.

In other news, my sister did lent, and didn't know who "did lent" first and why. So I told her. She didn't know why Good Friday was a holiday. So I told her, from a Christian perspective (It's the day Jesus was crucified, for the sins of the world). Mom got pissed for Lord knows why and told me to "shut up you fucking atheist." I responded that I was only trying to be helpful, and that was a rude thing for a Christian to say. She calmed down after that.

I got to explain to dad my sister's perspective on dating in high school. Hopefully, mom will allow my sister to make contact with this boy again, but I've done all I can for now.

I learned from my sister that, just as I suspected, her conversations with me are almost always monitored when I'm at uni. We developed a code for when our parents' eyes aren't on the screen, so I can talk to her seriously about issues in her life and developing sense of spirituality. I FEEL THEM FEELS, SIS.

Originally Posted by ♥Mark

Sounds like she needs professional help. It's a tricky situation when a person's mental diseases become the basis for their life and identity. I don't know how you can help someone so cemented in their own delusion, but... good luck.

What do professionals know? I say she needs a lesson in humility.

Originally Posted by Abra

Mom got pissed for Lord knows why and told me to "shut up you fucking atheist." I responded that I was only trying to be helpful, and that was a rude thing for a Christian to say. She calmed down after that.

You don't need our help.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

What I'm trying to understand here, if it wasn't clear, is how belief in the absence of evidence is at all beneficial or relevant. Hope and optimism aren't acceptable answers, since neither hope nor optimism require a positive belief that the outcome desired will actually come true. I could be hopeful that tomorrow, I will become a multi-billionaire, without actually expecting to become one.

Is it just for comfort? Does it make you feel "good" inside to believe that a loving God exists? If so, how do you reconcile this with the knowledge that there's no rationale behind the belief? If you don't know, or if there's a significant chance you're wrong, from where is the comfort derived? I don't know about you, but for me, the comfort somethings brings is immediately cheapened by the idea that the thing bringing the comfort is flawed or just plain nonsense.

What does this have to do with OP's mom?