Split from: DV Christians Unite! (Christian Only Thread)

[TheSilverWolf]

I think what you said Darkk, is something very important that non-believers often miss. People view the Bible as one giant book, which it is, but they fail to account the two very different era's; pre-Jesus and post-Jesus. Prior to Jesus, one had to perform animal sacrifices to be forgiven by God (if my understanding of that is true anyway; I don't believe prayer was enough in those days, and animal sacrifice was once a very common practice among Christians. That's what it seems to be, anyway). This ended after the New Testament, what one could call the second part of the Bible. Jesus made it to where we could be forgiven our sins simply by asking, and by being truly repentant of them. In a sense, God changed, becoming a much more forgiving God. Even Jesus acknowledged the change from the old "An Eye For An Eye" mentality to one of forgiveness. ~SilverWolf~

[Descensus]

In a sense, God changed, becoming a much more forgiving God. I won't see you running around here claiming God is perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent then?

[TimeDragon97]

I think what you said Darkk, is something very important that non-believers often miss. People view the Bible as one giant book, which it is, but they fail to account the two very different era's; pre-Jesus and post-Jesus. Prior to Jesus, one had to perform animal sacrifices to be forgiven by God (if my understanding of that is true anyway; I don't believe prayer was enough in those days, and animal sacrifice was once a very common practice among Christians. That's what it seems to be, anyway). This ended after the New Testament, what one could call the second part of the Bible. Jesus made it to where we could be forgiven our sins simply by asking, and by being truly repentant of them. In a sense, God changed, becoming a much more forgiving God. Even Jesus acknowledged the change from the old "An Eye For An Eye" mentality to one of forgiveness. ~SilverWolf~ Here's what I really don't get about Christianity: why doesn't God just forgive? Why does he need death to forgive? You seriously believe that God requirement for forgiveness was killing livestock? "Hey, you did a bad thing, but if you kill a goat, I'll forgive you."

[Descensus]

Thats why Jesus came, to end all of the sacrifices. Its sad seeing people with certain mindsets comlpetly doubting something just because they dont understand it. A finite mind can only barely understand the infinite. In the Old testament if God just forgave with no punishment, literally no one would learn, likewise for todays society pertaining to jail. Then in the new testament Jesus came to end all the killing of animals and punishments. Jesus wasnt sacrificed? In the Bible Jesus states that he knows why he has come to earth and his whole purpose. Why do you think he preached and did everything that he did? God sending Jesus to end animals sacrifices doesn't answer why God needed the sacrifices to dole out forgiveness in the first place. Indeed the appearance of Jesus only moves the goal posts; Jesus himself ended up being sacrifice. Why was it necessary? He seemed to be operating under a very sick system of vicarious redemption. Moving away from that system was a step in the right direction, though it shows us that the Christian conception of God isn't one where he is perfect, unchanging, omniscient, omnipotent, or omnibenevolent.

[OneUp]

God sending Jesus to end animals sacrifices doesn't answer why God needed the sacrifices to dole out forgiveness in the first place. Indeed the appearance of Jesus only moves the goal posts; Jesus himself ended up being sacrifice. Why was it necessary? He seemed to be operating under a very sick system of vicarious redemption. Moving away from that system was a step in the right direction, though it shows us that the Christian conception of God isn't one where he is perfect, unchanging, omniscient, omnipotent, or omnibenevolent. Good lord, I just said it was for punishment so people would change and stop sinning. The people will keep on doing their bad acts if there is no punishment or consequences against them doing it. The sacrifices showed that the people were willing to change, and give up something of theirs to show their obedience. In this way, everytime they did something wrong they would have to give up an animal and they would ultimately lose profit from losing it, so they would learn that way. Jesus came to be the "sacrifice of all sacrifices" he ended all the other sacrifices and opened a door for everyone to be able to be saved in a sense, a less gory way. It never changed God's characteristics, He cared for all humans then, now, and will in the future. But humans deeds will still be accounted for. How good is a person if they let evil persist and say "go ahead theres nothing stopping you" and they let no punishment take place. Would you like a murder to keep on murdering? because he will if he has no punishment. People like murderers, theifs, rapists, etc. will keep on doing their acts if they know there are no consequences. However, in todays society, people still rape, steal, and kill even though they know there is punishment. Those people are sick.

[Descensus]

Good lord, I just said it was for punishment so people would change and stop sinning. The people will keep on doing their bad acts if there is no punishment or consequences against them doing it. The sacrifices showed that the people were willing to change, and give up something of theirs to show their obedience. In this way, everytime they did something wrong they would have to give up an animal and they would ultimately lose profit from losing it, so they would learn that way. Jesus came to be the "sacrifice of all sacrifices" he ended all the other sacrifices and opened a door for everyone to be able to be saved in a sense, a less gory way. It never changed God's characteristics, He cared for all humans then, now, and will in the future. But humans deeds will still be accounted for. How good is a person if they let evil persist and say "go ahead theres nothing stopping you" and they let no punishment take place. Would you like a murder to keep on murdering? because he will if he has no punishment. People like murderers, theifs, rapists, etc. will keep on doing their acts if they know there are no consequences. However, in todays society, people still rape, steal, and kill even though they know there is punishment. Those people are sick. I understand the argument that he required people to do SOMETHING to attain his forgiveness. I'm asking why he specifically requested animal sacrifices. I'm also asking why he later decided to end the practice of animal sacrifices in favor of a single crucifixion. The move from animal sacrifices to a single crucifixion does indeed change God's characteristics. It shows that he favored one system, then favored another. Such a change is not compatible with the concept of a perfect being.

[DarkKiky0]

God is a lot nicer now because he FINALLY went to rehab and got help with his meth addiction. That guy lost his mind for a while there. I suspected that something wasn't right when he drowned the world, but I didn't really start coming out of denial until he sacrificed himself to himself. That was a red flag. That is an insult, borderline blasphemy, but not quite. Who came up with the idea of sacrificing animals? A. The infinitely intelligent creator of the universe B. Some dumb ass primitive humans Hmmm, that's a hard one. That is a different opinion, I don't find that insulting just because it's different from mine, I'm not a child. Here's what I really don't get about Christianity: why doesn't God just forgive? Why does he need death to forgive? You seriously believe that God requirement for forgiveness was killing livestock? "Hey, you did a bad thing, but if you kill a goat, I'll forgive you." That is a question, I don't find that insulting. The bible says that God can forgive insults to him, so there is hope for those who choose to insult him, but it makes me uncomfortable to read insults about him, not different opinions. If you had read my previous posts you would know that. I just feel I have been here long enough. The bible also says that you should inform people, but if they don't want to listen and go about their ways then you can't force them. Most Christians now a days forget this part and back lash people with heated insults and claim them as ignorant when that's not what God wants. I have said my piece here, I feel like I have gone far enough, so therefore I am stopping. If that means I'm not Christianly then that's your opinion, and it honestly doesn't change who I am. By the way, I never said I was a Christian, I was raised that way, but later found the religion that best describes my beliefs. It's close to Christianity though, I believe in one God and Jesus and all his teachings, I just worship differently. I felt I needed to say that before going so people wouldn't have false assumptions on me. Have a nice day all .

[OneUp]

I understand the argument that he required people to do SOMETHING to attain his forgiveness. I'm asking why he specifically requested animal sacrifices. I'm also asking why he later decided to end the practice of animal sacrifices in favor of a single crucifixion. The move from animal sacrifices to a single crucifixion does indeed change God's characteristics. It shows that he favored one system, then favored another. Such a change is not compatible with the concept of a perfect being. Who are you to question what he wanted as a sacrifice? Would you rather it be humans sacrificed? God wouldnt sacrifice humans though anyways. Honestly I think He chose animals then because it was a main source of profit for the average person back that long ago. I could be wrong though. He ended the sacrifice of animals later rather than earlier because He wanted Jesus to come on His timing, also fufilling the prophecies in the old testament. It doesnt change God's characteristics at all as much as you want it to. Your missing the whole point-He still loves everyone. He did then, now and always will. People just dont want to see it that way because they are fine with their own comfortable lives with no relationship with their creator. Such a change is not compatible with the concept of a perfect being? So his descision to help humanity out further and give them more grace and easier forgiveness represents nothing to you? I told you, He always does things on His timing, not yours, not mine, not anyones. What you call a "change" is merely the end of a specific time where God wanted to get certain things done and set in man a certain mind-set. I can still be nice and then be even more nice than before and be considered nice, but in your mind you consider this "such a change" rendering me angry and hateful even though I made myself better and in turn also helped out others. But the whole nice thing is just an example.

[Descensus]

Who are you to question what he wanted as a sacrifice? An inquisitive human trying to deconstruct the characteristics of one of mankind's many deities. Would you rather it be humans sacrificed? God wouldnt sacrifice humans though anyways. Jesus was a human. Honestly I think He chose animals then because it was a main source of profit for the average person back that long ago. I could be wrong though. He ended the sacrifice of animals later rather than earlier because He wanted Jesus to come on His timing, also fufilling the prophecies in the old testament. It doesnt change God's characteristics at all as much as you want it to. Your missing the whole point-He still loves everyone. He did then, now and always will. People just dont want to see it that way because they are fine with their own comfortable lives with no relationship with their creator. Such a change is not compatible with the concept of a perfect being? So his descision to help humanity out further and give them more grace and easier forgiveness represents nothing to you? I told you, He always does things on His timing, not yours, not mine, not anyones. What you call a "change" is merely the end of a specific time where God wanted to get certain things done and set in man a certain mind-set. I can still be nice and then be even more nice than before and be considered nice, but in your mind you consider this "such a change" rendering me angry and hateful even though I made myself better and in turn also helped out others. But the whole nice thing is just an example. Perfect beings should have no need for changing their wants. That's what you're not understanding. It doesn't matter how small the change is, or if he was "nice" before, but now he's even more "nice." That's still a change. If he's truly perfect, he should not change at all. If he does, he's not perfect. The logic is very clear.

[Universal Mind]

Who are you to question what he wanted as a sacrifice? Would you rather it be humans sacrificed? God wouldnt sacrifice humans though anyways. Honestly I think He chose animals then because it was a main source of profit for the average person back that long ago. I could be wrong though. He ended the sacrifice of animals later rather than earlier because He wanted Jesus to come on His timing, also fufilling the prophecies in the old testament. It doesnt change God's characteristics at all as much as you want it to. Your missing the whole point-He still loves everyone. He did then, now and always will. People just dont want to see it that way because they are fine with their own comfortable lives with no relationship with their creator. Such a change is not compatible with the concept of a perfect being? So his descision to help humanity out further and give them more grace and easier forgiveness represents nothing to you? I told you, He always does things on His timing, not yours, not mine, not anyones. What you call a "change" is merely the end of a specific time where God wanted to get certain things done and set in man a certain mind-set. I can still be nice and then be even more nice than before and be considered nice, but in your mind you consider this "such a change" rendering me angry and hateful even though I made myself better and in turn also helped out others. But the whole nice thing is just an example. You've really pissed me off in this thread. However, I will forgive you if you go kill some farm animals. In a few thousand years, you won't have to worry about that because I am going to kill myself for myself and come back to life.

[Universal Mind]

Who are you to question what he wanted as a sacrifice? Who are you to question what the Flying Spaghetti Monster wants?