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    Thread: Expanding universe.

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      Expanding universe.

      Hello. Im just wondering, if i told you that the Quran(muslim holy book) says that the universe is expanding. Would you accept it to be the word of god. Im just wondering. Please be open minded also

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      Quote Originally Posted by rchaouk2019 View Post
      Hello. Im just wondering, if i told you that the Quran(muslim holy book) says that the universe is expanding. Would you accept it to be the word of god. Im just wondering. Please be open minded also
      Personally no because I'm not religious, but it would be interesting if something humans have proved was written down many centuries earlier, it would definitely raise a lot of questions.

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      **Duplicate threads merged and placed in Religion/Spirituality**

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      Quote Originally Posted by rchaouk2019 View Post
      Hello. Im just wondering, if i told you that the Quran(muslim holy book) says that the universe is expanding. Would you accept it to be the word of god. Im just wondering. Please be open minded also
      Most holy scriptures have passages which can be interpreted in a way, so that they seem consistent with discoveries made in nature science. You have to consider whether you would have drawn the same knowledge from the scripture, if you had no knowledge of the actual scientific consensus. Our brain is absolutely brilliant at filling in the blanks in what we hear and read, especially when we want it to.

      Previously, it has been said that the Quaran predicted the existence of atoms and subatomic particles. Supposedly, what the given scripture really described, was that all matter in the universe could be broken down to its essential building blocks. At a glance, this might seem like an impressive prediction, but when put under scrutiny, it's quite clear that it is not. It doesn't explain anything at all about the atomic model, different molecular compositions, forces or anything else for that matter. It's simply a guess that any thinker in that day and age could have arrived had, if they really sat down and thought about things.


      So to answer your question, no. I don't believe the books are the word of God, and the fact that simple and meaningless predictions about our world, happen to be in those books, does not in any way validate their credibility. For every passage that seems to describe a truth about our world, you will find countless fantastical stories and accounts, which we know today could never be used to explain our world.
      Last edited by Marvo; 07-04-2013 at 10:25 PM.

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      Srry posted it twice

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      Provide some context. Who is "We" and what is heaven?

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      In the quran. The word heaven is used as the universe. The word in arabic samma means universe. The word jannah means heaven. (Look it up) in english we translate samma and jannah both as heaven

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      You have to consider the context of the world at that time as well. On planet Earth, we were still constantly discovering new land, different climates and animal and plant species. The people of the Middle East, ie. where the Bible and Quaran originated from, would constantly meet new people as well, who looked wildly different from themselves.
      Read the very same passage again, while keeping what I've written above in mind.

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      God rarely uses I in the quran. We is more formal. Sort of like when a king sends a letter and it says we here by declare or something like that. Look up "why does god use we in the quran"

      But why would god refer to earth as the heavens. That wouldent make sence
      Last edited by gab; 07-05-2013 at 01:54 AM. Reason: posts merged

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      I just wanted to know whether "We" refered to God or the scribes, where the scribes represent humans.

      Why wouldn't it make sense? Back in those days, we really didn't know a lot about our world. When we looked to the stars, all we really saw was a dome with tiny white specks of light on it. We had no way of determining the size of our world, and for all we knew then, the world stretched on forever and ever in every direction. The very ground people stood on then, could very well be what they considered the entire universe.
      Last edited by Marvo; 07-04-2013 at 10:17 PM.

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      But this is not the only thing. There is a verse in the quran that says as follows

      "Or [the state of a disbeliever] is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with a great wave topped by a great wave, topped by dark clouds, darkness, one above another, if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light."
      [Quran 24:40]

      How would somebody know that 1400 years ago

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      I don't see how that little tale has any connection to expansion of the universe. It seemingly explains that non-believers are shrouded in darkness, and they will only see the light when Allah decides.

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      There is another verse in the quran that says that

      On the day of resurrection, God will torture the disbelievers and burn their skins then he will create for them new skins to continue the punishment. God be he exalted says:
      (Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayt (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allh is Ever Most) Powerful, All-Wise)
      [Srat An-Nis, verse: 56]

      Everybody knows that after your skin burns for a certain amount of time you cannot feel the pain (look it up)

      But notice how allah says UNDER A VAST DEEP OCEAN
      Last edited by gab; 07-05-2013 at 01:55 AM. Reason: posts merged

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      ...so the fact that the Quran has an offhand mention of something which everybody knows to be true is evidence that the entire thing is the word of God?

      The Harry Potter books mention that Kings Cross is in London. Guess that means Harry Potter is also the word of Allah?
      Darkmatters and Photolysis like this.

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      Quote Originally Posted by rchaouk2019 View Post
      There is another verse in the quran that says that

      On the day of resurrection, God will torture the disbelievers and burn their skins then he will create for them new skins to continue the punishment. God be he exalted says:
      (Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayt (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allh is Ever Most) Powerful, All-Wise)
      [Srat An-Nis’, verse: 56]

      Everybody knows that after your skin burns for a certain amount of time you cannot feel the pain (look it up)
      This doesn't really prove anything. Skin in this context obviously refers to the mortal's flesh. Once it is reduced to ashes, it is given new flesh, so that it may suffer again.

      Quote Originally Posted by rchaouk2019 View Post
      But notice how allah says UNDER A VAST DEEP OCEAN
      Yeah, so what? The vast deep ocean just represents the thick shroud of darkness and lack of clarity.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      ...so the fact that the Quran has an offhand mention of something which everybody knows to be true is evidence that the entire thing is the word of God?

      The Harry Potter books mention that Kings Cross is in London. Guess that means Harry Potter is also the word of Allah?
      I was wondering when you'd show up Xei. Let's have som fun.

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      So youre saying that everybody in the middle east 1400 years ago knew that the bottom of the ocean is pure darkness.

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      Quote Originally Posted by rchaouk2019 View Post
      So youre saying that everybody in the middle east 1400 years ago knew that the bottom of the ocean is pure darkness.
      Have you looked at the ocean once in a while? It would seem obvious to anyone that it is rather dark down there.


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      The quran also says

      "I swear by what hides moving and sweeping" ( reffering to black holes)

    19. #19
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marvo View Post
      I was wondering when you'd show up Xei. Let's have some fun.
      I dipped my toes in the water but I'm ready to bail. This guy seems totally credulous and utterly lacking the self criticality to ever realise it. The thread's probably just going to be depressing.

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      Yeah no. Everytime you bring up a new tale, I point out how it could mean pretty much anything, and your kneejerk reaction is just pull out some new verse or some such, which supposedly could be construed to mean something, in the context of modern science.

      On top of all this, your little scriptures are taken completely out of context, void of apparently any other text. It's as if your god has filled up your holy book with scientific knowledge in the form of 8 word long sentences, handed it over to you, and then been on his way.

      If you believe in Islam, good for you, it's a nice religion I guess, but stop trying to do what you are doing right now. The Quran had a lot of scientific validity at its time, but in modern times, it has nothing to offer, and there's nothing interesting to be said about it, in a scientific context.

      note: apparently I've been misspelling the book's name.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      I dipped my toes in the water but I'm ready to bail. This guy seems totally credulous and utterly lacking the self criticality to ever realise it. The thread's probably just going to be depressing.
      Yes, I have reached the same conclusion. I was hoping he would at least try to defend his verses' validity, rather than just moving on to the next one.

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      Why?

      Because I accidentally post a new verse when put a new post. I will responded to anything u want me too
      Last edited by gab; 07-05-2013 at 01:55 AM. Reason: posts merged

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      Quote Originally Posted by rchaouk2019 View Post
      The quran also says

      "I swear by what hides moving and sweeping" ( reffering to black holes)
      Amazing!! How could it predict street sweepers so long ago? And the fact that they're so large cars and pedestrians can be hidden behind them!

      Then again, why would anyone swear by a black hole? Is it a Holy black hole?
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 07-04-2013 at 11:01 PM.
      Xei and Marvo like this.

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      If you want Rchaouk, I'd like to see you respond to one of my initial points/arguments in this thread.

      For every passage that seems to describe a truth about our world, you will find countless fantastical stories and accounts, which we know today could never be used to explain our world.
      Ever heard the expression of 'throwing ideas at a wall, until something sticks'? That's pretty much what holy books tend to do.

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      BY WHAT HIDES. first of all street sweepers don't hide and why would a person just randomly write about something that sweeps and hides?

      For every passage that seems to describe a truth about our world, you will find countless fantastical stories and accounts, which we know today could never be used to explain our world.


      I know what you mean. But this was reavealed 1400 years ago when people had no knowledge about science
      Last edited by gab; 07-05-2013 at 01:56 AM. Reason: posts merged
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      I could understand if god is telling this in a story but he's not.

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