Thread: If You Were Infinitely Powerful, Would You Have Yourself Tortured?

Originally Posted by juroara

whats all this nonsense. . God didnt create hell. . hell is entirely unecessary to 'punish' someone for their crime. As once someone is punished they are forgiven in the same fashion a parent would forgive you after grounding you for a day. A just parent does not ground their child for all eternity - period.

Jeremysr, youve ignored my post directed at you. Please tell me where does it say in this verse "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" burning in hell for all eternity? Where does this even say, heaven?[/b]

Heaven is being with God for eternity. Hell is not being with God for eternity. That's all I mean when I say heaven and hell.

First of all, if Adam and Eve were perfect, they wouldn't have needed to make mistakes in order to know not to make the mistakes, b/c they would have been incapable of making mistakes.[/b]

I mean sinless when I say perfect.

Okay, so I deserve to burned for eternity in your mythical lake of fire for sinning.... I have to tell you, the worst sin I have ever committed is lying to someone, do I really deserve to burn forever for that? Really, people get better prison sentences here on earth for raping, torturing, and murdering someone. Though, what really bothers me, is that the same person who did rape, torture, and murder someone could ask god for forgiveness and still get into heaven, while I would burn in hell for eternity for lying. Where is the justice in all of this?[/b]

Well it's all the same to God. God is eternal and when you sin against him you are sinning against an eternal God. Your punishment is eternal.

Stop comparing your sin to other bad humans to make your sin look better. Compare your sin to Jesus. Then you will hopefully see how bad you and all of us are.

You shouldn't really focus on sin anymore. It's too late, Adam sinned, so everyone's sinful now. We need to accept Jesus to take away all that sin, no matter "how much" there is.

Why? So I can be in heaven w/ the rapist/torturer/murderer? Pass. Seriously though, I used to be Christian (would you believe it?) but then after many years of unanswered prayers and many biblical contradictions, I had to switch sides. Living in a Christian family, I was pretty much bullied since childhood into being a Christian. Either by church members or by my own parents. They all used scare tactics to force me to go along w/ their beliefs. I bought into all of it for a while, but then finally saw the light. I realized that Christianity makes no more sense then any other religion (including Scientology) and that I would never know if I had the right religion. I spent years trying to figure out which one was the right one, but none of them seemed believable. Atheism is just the most logical choice of all of them. It is more logical to believe that the universe pretty much created itself through a lot of coincidences beginning w/ the Big Bang, then that some all knowing super-being is in control of all of our lives and everything we do. It makes more sense, b/c if there was a God (a loving God, not the sadist I kept referring to) he wouldn't want human beings to suffer, he wouldn't want them to go to hell, and he wouldn't force us to worship him.[/b]

If God hates us, what was the purpose of Jesus and why did he send Jesus?

I think Jesus demonstrated his (God's) love more than anything else.

Also, if you REALLY were a Christian, you still should be. Once God gives you the gift of eternal life, he doesn't take it away.

Instead of looking for a religion, look for GOD himself. If you look really hard for God and want to find him, he will find you!

You guys can make all the arguments you want that God doesn't want people to suffer, but if you take a look at any point in history, all you see is suffering and death. Look at the Holocaust. Millions of Jews were tortured to death at the hands of Hitler. If there was a loving God, wouldn't he have prevented this terrible tragedy? He knew what Hitler would do before creating him, so why create him? Its the same argument I've made w/ Satan, Job, and Abraham.[/b]

Suffering and death is a result of sin. After sin happened, there was already a murder between two of Adam & Eve's children. God can stop these things from happening and I'm sure he stops many things from happening that we just don't know about. But he can hardly just make everything perfect in a sinful world. There's way too much evil. BUT, soon he will make it new again. Soon he will destroy evil and finally death. And everything will be perfect again.

You could also argue that God doesn't want us to go to hell, yet 2/3 of the population is going there b/c they don't believe in God. That's a little extreme don't you think? What is the point of us even existing if we are going to hell? God created people knowing whether they would except him or not, right? We have no actual choice in the matter. If we choose to accept him, its b/c he created us w/ the intention that we would accept him, but if we choose to deny him, then its b/c he created us w/ the intention to deny him. Where is the justice in any of this anyway? He created me knowing full well that I am going to end up denying him, so why create me? Unless he wants me to go to hell?[/b]

What? 1/3 of the population is going to heaven? That's a HUGE number. I assume you're including the Catholic church. They teach that you have to do good things to cancel out the bad things you did. And a whole bunch of other stuff they made up. Most Catholics are not going to heaven. There's nothing you can do to get yourself to heaven. Jesus is the only way.

I think I said this before at least 5 times, and at least once in this topic. But I will say it yet again! You are NOT going to hell because you don't believe in God! You are going to hell because because of sin! Jesus is just a way to escape hell, that God lovingly provided!

As for forcing us to worship him, whats the point of it anyway? Why does this all powerful god need to have his subjects worship him? Its degrading and demeaning. Basically, if we don't cast aside our pride and bow down to this all powerful entity, we will burn forever. I just really don't think most people deserve that. I mean really, do you honestly think that the majority of the atheists on this site should burn forever in the lake of fire?[/b]

Worshiping God has NOTHING to do with whether you go to heaven and hell. I just said this, Jesus is the only way. There's nothing you can do.

Most atheists will go to hell but I don't WANT that. That's why I'm writing this.

I'm not going to change my beliefs just because I think it's unfair that all these people are going to hell. I'm not going to "change religion" to something just because it seems fairer.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

Well it's all the same to God. God is eternal and when you sin against him you are sinning against an eternal God. Your punishment is eternal.

Stop comparing your sin to other bad humans to make your sin look better. Compare your sin to Jesus. Then you will hopefully see how bad you and all of us are.[/b]

Yeah... But didn't Jesus sin too? Suicide is the same as murder, right? And murder is a sin. Well, if Jesus was as powerful as God is supposed to be then he could have easily prevented his own demise. He could have somehow escaped his punishment and saved everyone's souls some other way (one not involving death). Well, if you could prevent your own death but you don't, isn't that suicide in a way? Also, it also says somewhere in the bible that Jesus would go against his parents' wishes and go to temple instead of doing whatever it was that they wanted him to do. So, he broke another commandment there by dishonoring his father and mother.

Also, if you REALLY were a Christian, you still should be. Once God gives you the gift of eternal life, he doesn't take it away.[/b]

Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that if you are a christian, and you rebuke god, then you are destined for hell? Well, I have definitely rebuked god.

Instead of looking for a religion, look for GOD himself. If you look really hard for God and want to find him, he will find you! [/b]

I prayed every single night to GOD, and he never once answered! I spent years in complete misery, b/c I was depressed and had a lot of shit to go through, and I never got even a little bit of sympathy from him. I started to completely hate him after a while, (which is where a lot of my "God is a sadist" arguments come from, and trust me I have more) which is why I decided to try to find a different religion. I went through a lot of different ones trying to figure out where I belonged (I was even a Buddhist for a little while ). All the while I suspected more and more that my prayers had been futile and that no-one was listening. So, basically, its easier for me to exist knowing there is no God, then knowing there is a God who doesn't bother to listen to me.

Besides, the scientific theories make more sense to me anyway.

Originally Posted by Chaos

Yeah... But didn't Jesus sin too? Suicide is the same as murder, right? And murder is a sin. Well, if Jesus was as powerful as God is supposed to be then he could have easily prevented his own demise. He could have somehow escaped his punishment and saved everyone's souls some other way (one not involving death). Well, if you could prevent your own death but you don't, isn't that suicide in a way? Also, it also says somewhere in the bible that Jesus would go against his parents' wishes and go to temple instead of doing whatever it was that they wanted him to do. So, he broke another commandment there by dishonoring his father and mother.[/b]

No, he didn't commit suicide. Read the Bible. He was killed by us.

And yes, Jesus was as powerful as God because he WAS (and is) God. But he was humble and didn't overuse his power.

He could have prevented his own death but he HAD to die, it was the whole reason he came here. And besides he came back to life three days later.

Jesus wasn't honouring his parents when he did that probably. But he was honouring God. It is not sinful to disobey your parents when they tell you to do something sinful or to not do something that honour's God.

Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that if you are a christian, and you rebuke god, then you are destined for hell? Well, I have definitely rebuked god.[/b]

The one sin that can't be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This might not even be possible today. It was done by the people in Jesus' time, thinking Jesus could do all those powerful miracles because he was possessed by evil spirits.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Ok, I'm up to explaining M-W.com dictionary. Its a site that has all the definitions in a Merriam Webster dictionary. Fair enough? ... or do you need more?
As for the whole doctrine thing, I've schooled you at this before. You must have missed it, so I'll quote the definition of atheism once more.
*AHEM*
Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
Thats straight from the dictionary, unchanged.[/b]

That's one spun definition among several definitions in one dictionary listing. I would bet you a ton of money that the dictionary that came from was written by a Christian. It reminds me of Tarek's video that defined atheism as "the denial of God". Atheists don't think God exists. That's the entire definition right there. Religious people way too often treat atheism as some kind of organized religion with rituals and doctrine. Atheism is just a lack of belief in God. That's all. The general, traditional definition of "doctrine" involves a set of stances and rules. Calling atheism a doctrine is really stretching things. Would you consider your lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy a doctrine? A doctrine is more formal and complex than that.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

No, we've never said that he has limitations. The only constraints he has are placed by himself. Its not a limitation to do as you please. Get it?[/b]

Read Faken's posts and tell me nobody has said that. Read how Jeremysr has said that God acts according to what's "just", as if God can't change what is supposedly "just". Read other posts. Have you been reading this thread in much detail? Also, the conversation in this thread keeps wabbling back and forth. I will argue that if God is omnipotent he can do absolutely anything. People will debate me on whether or not that means God can do certain things like allow free will without suffering and get rid of eternal torture without any problems. Once I get people to admit that God WOULD be able to do such a thing if all powerful, the conversation shifts to whether or not he is bad for not doing those things. That has been the pattern. You are now on the latter part, so I will give the same argument I give every time, just before the conversation shifts back to whether or not God has rules he has to follow.

So I will say the following and challenge you to counter this point... If God is infinitely powerful, he can get rid of suffering, allow infinite bliss forever for everybody, still allow free will and whatever else is supposed to be such a big deal to exist, and make it where there are no problems with that scenario. If he creates/allows suffering and Hell to exist any way, he is not totally good.

Brilliand said that I am working my definition of "good" into that point. I say to Brilliand that my definition of good involves not creating or even allowing unchangeable eternal torture. I don't think I am out of the boundaries of reason in seeing "good" that way.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

A tangent isn't evasion. Digression, yes... rambling, yes... but not evasion.[/b]

A tangent is an evasion when you use one and avoid giving counterarguments and/or answers. That is what you accused me of, and you have yet to prove it. However, it is what you have been doing a great deal of by coming at me with unfounded ad hominem attacks and making very few points regarding the actual subject of the thread. That is hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

You just proved my point for me. You didn't make any comment one way or the other, when it was an atheist who had said the exact same thing. Thanks for another easy putt in.[/b]

What point did I prove for you? That I am sarcastic toward people who insult me? Yes, I am. We can agree on that. But you still have yet to prove that I have been rude to anybody who wasn't rude to me first. You do a lot of asserting without arguing. Do you know the difference? Prove it.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Well, if you must know... Its the only time I get to talk to you... but I guess you don't like me... Just kidding. The differing factor... besides you... is the fact that its in my "View New Posts" option, which I might add, I have asked to have this forum removed from mine several times.[/b]

That doesn't mean you have to chime into debates you don't want to participate in. If these conversations turn your stomach upside down, you should stay out of them. It's not like you really add anthing, other than my entertainment.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Hehe... I take it you'd don't understand my capacity for love. Just because we are at ends, does not mean that I don't love you and wish you the best. It is pointless to be mad at someone that I don't know, whom I've only ever talked to over the internet. My criticisms only stem from the lack of respect you show toward me. When I first posted in this topic, I had full intention on answering the question posed, but every time I tryed to make my point, you refused to allow it validity. I even took the time to look it up, after you claimed that I had the definition wrong. I wanted to make sure that I was perfectly in the right before continuing. Even after I supplied it to you, and if you look back it totally fits with what I've previously stated, you still wouldn't have my answers as THE answers, because that would undermine your attempts at degrading my religion. Even with all this trouble you've put me through, me sitting in my room typing this thing out... on Easter, no less... I can still say, without a shadow of a doubt, I love you.
The trouble this is causing, not so much.[/b]

What you need to understand is that when you debate people, they will debate back. Whining that they didn't "allow it validity" is just a silly whine. Like I said, you are like a little kid who plays soccer and cries because he can't ever get to the ball. This is a debate. Toughen up. My goal is not to degrade your religion. My goal is to debate its validity with willing participants. If you don't want to participate, bye bye. I want to make as much sense of your religion as I can. You should welcome such an opportunity. My advice is to stop the personal insults and either debate the topic or leave.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Universal Mind,
Heh that list made me laugh

Anyway God chose hell because hell is just. A judge does not say "Ok, you murdered 5 people. Now you get a birthday party!" Nope. You'd get prison I'm quite sure.

Hell is an eternal prison. When you sin against God you are sinning against an eternal God therefore your punishment lasts an eternity.

> Why do you think eternal torture is a good thing?

I (we) don't think it's a good thing... we think it's just!
It wasn't a problem with our smartness. We were first created as adults. Who didn't have parents or anyone to show them what happens when you break a rule. Being perfect, they had no mistakes to learn from.
I think I've already tried explaining this to you many times... But I will do it again! You are NOT being punished for not being a Christian. That's the wrong way of thinking of sin! SIN is what seperates us from God and sends us to eternal punishment. It's Adam's sin and all of our sin that sent us to hell. Jesus rescued us from it though. Now it might seem like you're being punished for not "joining our religion". That's because Jesus is the only hope you have left. There's nothing you can do to be freed from your sin. Only Jesus can help you now.
Also, even if you still think hell is unjust: Even if it is, that doesn't mean it's not real! You shouldn't even care whether it's just or unjust, you should care about escaping it and being saved from it![/b]

The way God supposedly created the universe is what supposedly led to the existence of Hell, and he supposedly knew that. That is evil. With infinite power, he could have made it completely unnecessary. There is nothing just about it. No matter how you talk about it, you have been saying that I will burn forever for not accepting Jesus. That means God set the universe up in such a way that I will burn forever unless I accept Jesus. I can't make sense of Jesus, so I can't accept him. If God thinks my eternal torture based on that is just, then he lacks conscience. I am not somebody to be equated with somebody who murders five people, and people who did still don't deserve eternal torture.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Anyways, I think what I am trying to say is, just because humans were created in one way - in this belief of God - that doesnt mean that God has not aleady created other beings in another way.[/b]

God could have created all of the benefits you mentioned in your post with none of the problems you mentioned. Right?

Originally Posted by Universal

The way God supposedly created the universe is what supposedly led to the existence of Hell, and he supposedly knew that. That is evil. With infinite power, he could have made it completely unnecessary. There is nothing just about it. No matter how you talk about it, you have been saying that I will burn forever for not accepting Jesus. That means God set the universe up in such a way that I will burn forever unless I accept Jesus. I can't make sense of Jesus, so I can't accept him. If God thinks my eternal torture based on that is just, then he lacks conscience. I am not somebody to be equated with somebody who murders five people, and people who did still don't deserve eternal torture.


God could have created all of the benefits you mentioned in your post with none of the problems you mentioned. Right?[/b]

First,
Hell was not made cause God wanted to it had yes i sai HAD to be made because the devil sin the first time , it as his punishment , God did not want to make Hell he had too No Choice at all not too.

Second ,
You did not burn it hell for not accepting Jesus you burn in hell cause you sinned Jesus is the way out.

Thrid,
God is not ending you to hell cause you can make any sense of it , he send you to hell cause you have sinned.

Ok try this out. (For Universal Mind Only&#33

Say you believe in all this and God one day come to you can say i want you to come to heaven and fix it for me cause i can't by what you say so how would you do it?(Complete Scenerio)(i rather you send this answer in a pm if you can.)

God did not want to make Hell he had too No Choice at all not too.[/b]

A all powerful being who is all loving made hell because he had no choice sound implausible. Alternative he could destroy sin or go back in time and change the events so he dosen't create the devil.

You did not burn it hell for not accepting Jesus you burn in hell cause you sinned Jesus is the way out.[/b]

Save me jesus. Nothing happen well I am going to hell. Seems abit unfair as I haven't done any sinning.

God is not ending you to hell cause you can make any sense of it , he send you to hell cause you have sinned.[/b]

What sin have I done if you count not worshipping jesus like a moron.

Say you believe in all this and God one day come to you can say i want you to come to heaven and fix it for me cause i can't by what you say so how would you do it?[/b]

Going back to the past and stopping god creating the devil alternatively I can get rid off all the sin by dystroying it. I could possibly make jesus more intelligent and make sure he can fly so he doesn't get caught again. Not causing earth quakes and providing starving people with a decent life and making all the sinner young e.g. before they sinned make the child in question happy so they don't sin. Don't leave a apple tree with a snake next to it would be a good place to start.

Originally Posted by Faken

Say you believe in all this and God one day come to you can say i want you to come to heaven and fix it for me cause i can't by what you say so how would you do it?(Complete Scenerio)(i rather you send this answer in a pm if you can.)[/b]

I'd tell him to give the "god" powers to somebody else, who can actually be allpowerfull or dissapear from existance with everything that he created. It's very very unlikely to happen. I mean that would mean that he wasn't allpowerfull. It's quite a simple answer really, I'd just make it the way it would be perfect. That's it, no hell, no other unnecessary "bs". You make it look so hard, when in fact it's as easy as anything else, creating an apple = creating a universe.

Originally Posted by Universal

That's one spun definition among several definitions in one dictionary listing. I would bet you a ton of money that the dictionary that came from was written by a Christian. It reminds me of Tarek's video that defined atheism as "the denial of God". Atheists don't think God exists. That's the entire definition right there. Religious people way too often treat atheism as some kind of organized religion with rituals and doctrine. Atheism is just a lack of belief in God. That's all. The general, traditional definition of "doctrine" involves a set of stances and rules. Calling atheism a doctrine is really stretching things. Would you consider your lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy a doctrine? A doctrine is more formal and complex than that.[/b]

Lol, That is the funniest thing I've heard in my life! You've made my day once again. Do you own a dictionary? Please tell me what it's name is. Its most likely Webster's dictionary. I find it hysterical that you would would even question that the reputability of Webster's dictionary. It is THE dictionary. I mean, it would be different if I was quoting, say "Freedictionary.com" or something. I've decided that I just can't dispute things with a man who is willing to sit here and tell me that a dictionary was obviously baised, because it used wording that makes you look stupid. You should just cut your loses and say "I'm sorry, I didn't realized "doctrine" could be used that way." Then I would have said "Oh, no big deal. Happens to the best of us". But no, instead you are willing to insult my intelligence by posting this crap. I'm sorry, but you need to grow up, or at least admit when you were wrong.

Until then, I'm out. Love ya!

PS: You never told me you loved me back!

you are looking over the point jesus died for us to do something to save many of us and if that was what god planned then yes i would

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Lol, That is the funniest thing I've heard in my life! You've made my day once again. Do you own a dictionary? Please tell me what it's name is. Its most likely Webster's dictionary. I find it hysterical that you would would even question that the reputability of Webster's dictionary. It is THE dictionary. I mean, it would be different if I was quoting, say "Freedictionary.com" or something. I've decided that I just can't dispute things with a man who is willing to sit here and tell me that a dictionary was obviously baised, because it used wording that makes you look stupid. You should just cut your loses and say "I'm sorry, I didn't realized "doctrine" could be used that way." Then I would have said "Oh, no big deal. Happens to the best of us". But no, instead you are willing to insult my intelligence by posting this crap. I'm sorry, but you need to grow up, or at least admit when you were wrong.

Until then, I'm out. Love ya!

PS: You never told me you loved me back![/b]

Every dictionary has many authors, and the person responsible for that definition was apparently biased. Whether or not atheism is a doctrine is actually a common debate. Look it up on Google. Some theists even consider atheism a "faith". I strongly disagree with that very common view. The common meaning of "doctrine" involves formality and complexity, like the Monroe Doctrine, the Bush Doctrine, and the Catholic Doctrine. Some atheists turn a simple lack of belief in something an form clubs and state tenets and all kinds of stuff, turning their atheism into a doctrine, but most of us don't. It is a simple matter of not believing an idea that seems astoundingly far fetched. A simple lack of belief that the Magic Pumpkin exists is not the type of belief that qualifies as a doctrine. A doctrine is always a belief or position, but not all beliefs and positions are doctrines.

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:wCVLQ7...;cd=1&gl=us

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:uNUHDA...;cd=3&gl=us

Is that the only issue you want to debate me on? Just whether or not not believing something others believe qualifies as a doctrine? Some argue that it does, and that is why it made the definition you found. People who believe that are religious. Religious people often have a hard time accepting how people can just not believe in God without having some kind of complex cult system for so deliberately blocking out what everybody really believes (so they argue). But one way or the other, this is a pretty hair splitting issue you have picked out since you have no prayer of getting any ground in the actual debates we are having about the existence of God. You are obviously trying to run from those. How about the issue of this thread? You have sucked royally at debating it. Have you grown some testicles yet?

Do you even understand what the debate is about? If God can do ANYTHING, he can create a happy world with no need for suffering. In such a case, he would not have to have himself tortured. He would be able to ditch such a stupid rule any way, and he wouldn't have even created the rule in the first place. If he chose to allow suffering and have himself tortured any way, he is a sadist (and a masochist). Therefore, the argument that God is both all powerful and all loving is illogical. Your counterargument...

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

First,
Hell was not made cause God wanted to it had yes i sai HAD to be made because the devil sin the first time , it as his punishment , God did not want to make Hell he had too No Choice at all not too.[/b]

Then he is not infinitely powerful. You said recently that God can do "anything". Have you changed your mind already?

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Second ,
You did not burn it hell for not accepting Jesus you burn in hell cause you sinned Jesus is the way out.[/b]

So I burn in Hell if I don't accept Jesus. Right? None of my sins warrant eternal torture. It's not even possible to deserve eternal torture. There is not a single act a human is capable of committing that calls for eternal torture. Not one.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Thrid,
God is not ending you to hell cause you can make any sense of it , he send you to hell cause you have sinned.[/b]

That is the most out of proportion punishment to crime scenario ever even talked about. It is infinitely more unjust than torturing somebody to death for jay walking. And the supposed only way out is something I cannot make sense of. You've been watching me try.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Ok try this out. (For Universal Mind Only&#33

Say you believe in all this and God one day come to you can say i want you to come to heaven and fix it for me cause i can't by what you say so how would you do it?(Complete Scenerio)(i rather you send this answer in a pm if you can.)[/b]

I don't like PM debates as much as forum debates. That is because I welcome the opportunity for others to chime in.

If God asked me to fix his mess, I wouldn't be able to because I am not infinitely powerful. I would tell him he can fix the problem with his infinite power. By the definition of "omnipotence", an omnipotent being would be able to do so. If you claim a man has the ability to make ANY building float but he can't make the Empire State Building float, and I say that is a contradiction, you would not have a viable counterarument in posing the question of how he is supposed to do it. All that is relevant is that if he can make ANY building float, he can make the Empire State Building float. I don't believe in infinite power, so I can't give the full details of how it would be used. I don't think it can be used because I don't think it's real or even possible. I am just saying that, hypothetically, IF infinite power were real, it could be used to do ANYTHING. It would have no limits.

Originally Posted by wendylove

A all powerful being who is all loving made hell because he had no choice sound implausible. Alternative he could destroy sin or go back in time and change the events so he dosen't create the devil.

Save me jesus. Nothing happen well I am going to hell. Seems abit unfair as I haven't done any sinning.

What sin have I done if you count not worshipping jesus like a moron.

Going back to the past and stopping god creating the devil alternatively I can get rid off all the sin by dystroying it. I could possibly make jesus more intelligent and make sure he can fly so he doesn't get caught again. Not causing earth quakes and providing starving people with a decent life and making all the sinner young e.g. before they sinned make the child in question happy so they don't sin. Don't leave a apple tree with a snake next to it would be a good place to start.[/b]

First calling jesus is a sinned (1) doing anything evil(2) saying God does not exist(3) cussing or cursing(4) and many other i think you might have done.

Originally Posted by wendylove

I don't like PM debates as much as forum debates. That is because I welcome the opportunity for others to chime in.

If God asked me to fix his mess, I wouldn't be able to because I am not infinitely powerful. I would tell him he can fix the problem with his infinite power. By the definition of "omnipotence", an omnipotent being would be able to do so. If you claim a man has the ability to make ANY building float but he can't make the Empire State Building float, and I say that is a contradiction, you would not have a viable counterarument in posing the question of how he is supposed to do it. All that is relevant is that if he can make ANY building float, he can make the Empire State Building float. I don't believe in infinite power, so I can't give the full details of how it would be used. I don't think it can be used because I don't think it's real or even possible. I am just saying that, hypothetically, IF infinite power were real, it could be used to do ANYTHING. It would have no limits.[/b]

lol ok on the first place

Ok let me redo my question , Ok one day God come to you and say "Universal Mind i want you to fix what i created , cause you think you can do and better, your like me and everyway nothing is differnt , your infinite powerful , you can do anything you want , you command everything , you have all my knowledge of everthing.

Ok try that out only rule i have is do not say you destroy God i don't want to hear it aslo i want a full out plan , not "i would make it the world with no sin" i want "i would make it the world with no sin and how your going to do it?".

and i check back later.

Everyone can do it cause if i say "for universal mind only you don't listen" plus i rather have as much feedback as possiable

I don't think it's possible because I don't think infinite power is possible. I am saying that by the absurd concept of infinite power, an infinitely powerful being would be able to do ANYTHING. That is what infinite power is. I can't tell you the full details of how the infinite power would be used. I don't think there is such thing. It is a notion that is full of contradictions. Did you see where I said this...

Originally Posted by Universal

By the definition of "omnipotence", an omnipotent being would be able to do so. If you claim a man has the ability to make ANY building float but he can't make the Empire State Building float, and I say that is a contradiction, you would not have a viable counterarument in posing the question of how he is supposed to do it. All that is relevant is that if he can make ANY building float, he can make the Empire State Building float. I don't believe in infinite power, so I can't give the full details of how it would be used. I don't think it can be used because I don't think it's real or even possible. I am just saying that, hypothetically, IF infinite power were real, it could be used to do ANYTHING. It would have no limits.[/b]

But still, creating sin and Hell is unnecessary for free will, as if free will is something greater than infinite happiness. There are plenty of alternatives we cannot choose. It would not hurt things to make Hell one of them and sin another one. I can't tell you how to make them unnecessary because I think they already are. I don't see their necessity, especially in an omnipotent being's creation.

Originally Posted by Faken

Ok let me redo my question , Ok one day God come to you and say "Universal Mind i want you to fix what i created , cause you think you can do and better, your like me and everyway nothing is differnt , your infinite powerful , you can do anything you want , you command everything , you have all my knowledge of everthing.

Ok try that out only rule i have is do not say you destroy God i don't want to hear it aslo i want a full out plan , not "i would make it the world with no sin" i want "i would make it the world with no sin and how your going to do it?".

and i check back later.[/b]

According to you, in the beginning, when Adam and Eve were all alone on this world, THERE WAS NO SIN. They lived in paradise until God introduced the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. If he hadn't put that tree on earth, there would have been no need for a blood sacrifice, b/c humanity would have remained sinless. W/o the tree, they were completely incapable of sinning, but w/ it they were doomed. Though, also, there was Satan to think about. He tempted them in the 1st place (by they way, how could perfect people be tempted anyway?) by becoming a snake and making the apples sound appealing. Now, why did God need Satan anyway? Couldn't he have functioned just as well w/o some psycho that he knew would just betray him and try to become the new God? God knows everything, right? So, he knew what would happen when he created Lucifer. So, why create him?

Originally Posted by Universal

So I will say the following and challenge you to counter this point... If God is infinitely powerful, he can get rid of suffering, allow infinite bliss forever for everybody, still allow free will and whatever else is supposed to be such a big deal to exist, and make it where there are no problems with that scenario. If he creates/allows suffering and Hell to exist any way, he is not totally good.

Brilliand said that I am working my definition of "good" into that point. I say to Brilliand that my definition of good involves not creating or even allowing unchangeable eternal torture. I don't think I am out of the boundaries of reason in seeing "good" that way.[/b]

I think you are out of the boundaries of reason in seeing good that way, and I also think "what God had in mind" extends farther than you think. "Making it so there are no problems with that scenario" sounds about the same to me as "Do it that way and like it." God defined the universe in accordance with love, not happiness, and love requires continuous giving.

If God defined all of those terms the way you want them, they would not be the way you want them. Whatever other universe God could have made would not be the same as this one, and those terms could easily lose their meaning. Words are defined in terms of the universe, and those words are defined in terms of this one.

Originally Posted by Brilliand

I think you are out of the boundaries of reason in seeing good that way, and I also think "what God had in mind" extends farther than you think. "Making it so there are no problems with that scenario" sounds about the same to me as "Do it that way and like it." God defined the universe in accordance with love, not happiness, and love requires continuous giving.

If God defined all of those terms the way you want them, they would not be the way you want them. Whatever other universe God could have made would not be the same as this one, and those terms could easily lose their meaning. Words are defined in terms of the universe, and those words are defined in terms of this one.[/b]

I am out of reason in seeing good as involving not allowing inescapable eternal torture? Allowing inescapable eternal torure is the exact opposite of good. In fact, it is the most evil idea I have ever heard of. Name one thing more evil than setting up existence in such a way that your human creations are tortured forever and ever for not believing an idea that seems incredibly irrational to them. Like I said, it is infinitely more evil than torturing somebody to death for jay walking. The "crime" is far more understandable, and the punishment is infinitely worse. It is infinite atrocity.

Wanting people to not be tortured forever is not expecting anything unreasonable. Rapists are less evil than the God you are talking about. How much sense would it make if I said that in saying rapists are not good, you are defining "good" in your own way? Rape is evil. It is an unnecessary malicious act meant to hurt people with pain they don't deserve. Do you know any women who have been raped? How do you feel about the rapist(s)? Creating Hell for people to go to is far more evil. Imagine the pain a woman feels during a rape being muliplied many times and lasting for eternity. One might say, "Oh, but she was wearing a short skirt and asking for it," just like somebody could say, "Oh, but she was unable to make sense of Christianity and asking for eternal torture." Rape is evil. Creating eternal torture is infinitely more evil. Can you name anything, even in theory, that is more evil?