How can god know all and humans still have free will? My opinion on the subject.

[Lucid_boy]

I believe that because god is infinitly vast and powerfull that he see the infinite possibilitys of our life. He knows at certian points what path our life will take if we keep doing things they way we do them now. Every new situation or person we meet has the potential to change the future so god would know exactly where our life was going depending on weather or not we continued along the path we were on. He would know for instance that I was going to get married and move to arizona if I met no one new or tried know new experinces that majorly impacted my life but the second I did my future would change and god would know what my life would be like in that new future so every action we took would determined what future we would have unless somthing Big impacted it. He would go: based on his current choices he will do this, that, and the other thing but the second we did somthing new he would be like OH now he is going to do the other thing, this, and that. I know some of you are going to scream about how flawed my logic is and that is ok. I love all the diffrent opinions and the knowledge you provide me with I love you all for helping me to improve my theorys and thoughts. You Atheists are great people because your probing questions help me to patch the holes in my theorys and strenghten my beliefs.

[R.D.735]

I think you have a good theory. That, I think, would allow for free will and God's omnipotence to coexist, provided that God's predictive capacity only extends so far into the future, much like human predictions.

[Original Poster]

According to NDEs the future is always changing, when God reveals the future he is only revealing what would happen if people don't make a choice other than what they would have.

[Universal Mind]

I don't believe in free will. I believe that such a thing would involve uncaused events. Everything is bound to happen a certain way, based on the laws of physics. The future has already been set in motion. If it were not bound to happen the way it does end up happening, it would mean that randomness, which is a principle of lack of causation, would be a factor. If randomness were possible, ceilings would rain fish and subway trains would come out of trees without cause. Things would disappear and appear with no rhyme or reason. Randomness cannot exist in an ordered universe. Even if free will is real, an all knowing and all powerful God would have to be less than totally good to knowingly create a scenario that leads to suffering. If he contemplates setting up reality in a certain way with full knowledge that terrible natural disasters are going to happen, he would set up reality in another way, if he is totally good. If he is in charge of all of the laws of reality, creating a universe without suffering would be no problem for him.

[♥Mark]

I believe that because god is infinitly vast and powerfull that he see the infinite possibilitys of our life. He knows at certian points what path our life will take if we keep doing things they way we do them now. Every new situation or person we meet has the potential to change the future so god would know exactly where our life was going depending on weather or not we continued along the path we were on. He would know for instance that I was going to get married and move to arizona if I met no one new or tried know new experinces that majorly impacted my life but the second I did my future would change and god would know what my life would be like in that new future so every action we took would determined what future we would have unless somthing Big impacted it. He would go: based on his current choices he will do this, that, and the other thing but the second we did somthing new he would be like OH now he is going to do the other thing, this, and that. I know some of you are going to scream about how flawed my logic is and that is ok. I love all the diffrent opinions and the knowledge you provide me with I love you all for helping me to improve my theorys and thoughts. You Atheists are great people because your probing questions help me to patch the holes in my theorys and strenghten my beliefs. If god knows everything, why would he not know which choice we would make? Are you implying that the decision making is random? How is it "free will" if choices are made at random?

[Xaqaria]

There is a respected theory that things do appear and disapear without rhyme or reason; it is called quantum foam. Also, how do you know that suffering is not beneficial? Are there not things that we would be incapable of learning without suffering?

[♥Mark]

Even all powerful gods have their limits. Let's not be too hard on god, he's trying so hard! =3

[Universal Mind]

There is a respected theory that things do appear and disapear without rhyme or reason; it is called quantum foam. Also, how do you know that suffering is not beneficial? Are there not things that we would be incapable of learning without suffering? If events were random, there would be no limits to the spontaneity of uncaused events. An all powerful God could make suffering completely unnecessary for his intended benefits. If he can do that and doesn't, he is not totally good. Even all powerful gods have their limits. Let's not be too hard on god, he's trying so hard! =3 That says so much with so few words.

[Xaqaria]

why does the possibility of randomness dictate that everything must be completely unpredictable? Once again I'll ask, how do you know that suffering is not beneficial?

[Universal Mind]

why does the possibility of randomness dictate that everything must be completely unpredictable? Because things can happen without cause if there is randomness. So what stops things from spontaneously happening without cause if cause is not a requirement? Nothing. Once again I'll ask, how do you know that suffering is not beneficial? It definitely can be, under the laws of reality as they are. But an all powerful creator would have been able to make suffering unnecessary for the same benefits, would he not? It is evil to create suffering where it is not necessary.

[Xaqaria]

Because things can happen without cause if there is randomness. So what stops things from spontaneously happening without cause if cause is not a requirement? Nothing. What you are talking about is a high probability of randomness. The possibility of it does not mean that it is probable Also, how exactly is free will completely random? Willfulness denotes intention. It definitely can be, under the laws of reality as they are. But an all powerful creator would have been able to make suffering unnecessary for the same benefits, would he not? It is evil to create suffering where it is not necessary. God is something that encompasses the entire universe. You are a part of god. Your suffering is god's suffering. Suffering is not something that god does to you, it is something that god experiences for itself willfully through you as a part of its whole. Why do humans impart suffering on themselves when they have the power to stop it? This is the same question asked differently.

[Universal Mind]

What you are talking about is a high probability of randomness. The possibility of it does not mean that it is probable Also, how exactly is free will completely random? Willfulness denotes intention. If events can happen without cause, then probability is not an issue in regard to uncaused events. They do not happen with rhyme or reason, so probability does not apply. Lack of a cause requirement takes away limitations on spontaneity. God is something that encompasses the entire universe. You are a part of god. Your suffering is god's suffering. Suffering is not something that god does to you, it is something that god experiences for itself willfully through you as a part of its whole. Why do humans impart suffering on themselves when they have the power to stop it? This is the same question asked differently. Because we are retarded. God is supposed to be infinitely intelligent and infinitely powerful. He could make suffering nonexistent and would if he existed.

[Sornaensis]

According to NDEs the future is always changing, when God reveals the future he is only revealing what would happen if people don't make a choice other than what they would have. Actually, the future never changes. Ever. Because it is always relative to your actions.

[Moonbeam]

Also, how do you know that suffering is not beneficial? Are there not things that we would be incapable of learning without suffering? Yea, suffering is great as long as it's not you, right? Those babies dying of starvation are learning so much. You and Mother Theresa would have gotten along great.

[george]

If God knew all, then by definition he would know all your future choices. Your theory is that God does not know all - he does not know what you will decide. If an omnipotent God existed, free will couldn't exist. Although there are other problems with free will, which are not related to God. The impossibility of free will when God exists might just be true, might be a fact. Humans romantizise the notion of free will, but i think free will is mainly made up by humans. So that God's existence would mean there is no free will might not be an argument against God - there really might not be a free will. Lets say you have a choice now to either eat an orange or a chocolate bar. You'd say you have free will to choose between the two. But do you really? What you choose is determined by your beliefs - maybe you think a chocolate bar is unhealthy, so you choose an orange. You didn't make a choice in this way. You cannot say that "if i had wanted, I would've taken the chocolate bar". In the exact same conditions as before, you would take the orange again. To have chosen the chocolate bar you would need to change the conditions. All our decisions are decided upon our past experience. In this sense they are not really decisions. So what is free will?

[Irishdreamer]

I belive that God knows the outcome, and we decide how we are going to get there, either the hard way or the easy way. Have you ever met someone who is constantly in turmoil and just resists everything making life really hard and difficult. I used to be that person. I did not trust God's outcome thinking my way was better. But all that brought was pain and suffering. Now I go with the natural "stream of life" and bad and good things are not as disaterous. I think the free will is what route we take to his will. Generouly called life lessons. Just my opinion!

[NonDualistic]

In the present moment, I dont see God as a seperat distinct individual, but rather an Essence that is the base of all that is, to the point where really there is nothing but God /this Essence. One can apply the multitude of labels to this One Essence, ie God, Allah, Rama, etc etc, but the essence itself remains the same through all. I see this Essence as a Conscious Presence within all things and all individual existant beings. Though all individuals appear to be distinct, in shape, form, personality, etc, the Conscious Presence is the same throughout all. Everything aside from this conscoius Presence is merely a play of energy in motion manifesting in the many different forms on the many different planes of existance. The individuals peception of themselves as distinctly unique individual persona is also merely a natural play of this energy in motion. An illusion, albeit seemingly very real. Free Will as I see it in this moment, is not related to physical events or choices but in relation to inner awareness. one has the free will to continue moving in the direction of their percieved distinct individuality or to move in the direction of reslization of the oneness of the universe. The choice to live out the existant life as an individual or to merge with the whole and let go of their individual identity they have believed themselves to be. That is just what I see now anyhow. I'm still exploring my inner self though, who knows what will arise to be seen next? I'm not prepared to set my feet in concrete by any means.

[Original Poster]

Actually, the future never changes. Ever. Because it is always relative to your actions. Sure, but the future you are presented, due to chaos theory, could never be the ACTUAL future.

[Irishdreamer]

[QUOTE=NonDualistic;551213] Free Will as I see it in this moment, is not related to physical events or choices but in relation to inner awareness. QUOTE] One of my favorite quotes is: "Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it." Maybe the free will is inner like you said. How I feel about the situation that I have no control of.

[Xaqaria]

Yea, suffering is great as long as it's not you, right? Those babies dying of starvation are learning so much. You and Mother Theresa would have gotten along great. You are ignorant.

[Xaqaria]

If events can happen without cause, then probability is not an issue in regard to uncaused events. They do not happen with rhyme or reason, so probability does not apply. Lack of a cause requirement takes away limitations on spontaneity. You don't know much about probability do you? It is the causual occurances that effect the probability of randomness. The more structured a system, the less probable randomness is. This doesn't mean that a structured system makes randomness impossible. Because we are retarded. God is supposed to be infinitely intelligent and infinitely powerful. He could make suffering nonexistent and would if he existed. Why is god a he? Why must there be a personal god for there to be a god at all?

[♥Mark]

You are ignorant. furry

[Xaqaria]

furry Your every post has degenerated in to senseless banter material. Why are you still here?

[♥Mark]

Your every post has degenerated in to senseless banter material. Why are you still here? My post was as relevant and beneficial as yours.

[Xaqaria]

My post was as relevant and beneficial as yours. I disagree.