Thread: What You All Must Understand (Believers and Non Believers)

Originally Posted by lonestarx

prove there isnt a God then? what you cant? Yea Im sorry I believe that heaven awaits me and a perfect world instead of I guess what becoming soil. The evident truth is, its your choice. Me and spiritofthewolf could argue with u till the cows come home. We try to convert cause thats what the Lords said to do. The way we look at it ur headed into a deathtrap wouldnt u want someone to warn u? just the same. Your headed to a horrible place where ull be tortoured forever and were just trying to warn...

Heaven awaits you in a perfect world, rather then becoming soil? Listen to what you are saying, compare it to some of the stories people used to believe in ancient times, and just realize that the bible is another way for people to make something they fear and don't understand 'pleasant.'

I respect that you are trying to warn everyone and I about this torture you believe will greet us in the afterlife, but maybe you should work on respecting that some people just don't want to hear about it. I mean, you've done your job and 'warned' us, not leave my 'eternal soul' and I be.

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

One day every knee will bow.....

My knee only bows to one person and Your god isn't it.

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

Also this means Jews will go to hell yes? Yet you both worship the same God. Is it not unfair of God to punish his original followers just because their belief in him was so strong they did not heed the words of any one else, even one claiming to be Gods son, as God warned them off false prophets and how Satan can be clever in tricking them.

Interesting thought. Maybe 'Jesus' was 'Satans' greatest success

to answer some questions. Yea before God sent his son pple were sent to hell. But guess what happen after God sent Jesus to die, Jesus went into Hell and took every living soul into heaven. Thats right instead of not caring as some of you put it, all the souls before Jesus were taken into heaven. Also Jesus was not a false prophet... remember Jesus is the Lord God Almighty in human flesh. Meaning he was and is God.

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Just like Jesus Christ can work through us, so can Satan.....

So, Satan is God?

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Now you must be like..How do you know this...

No. Because I know you don't know this... you believe this, but you have no proof.

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

the truth is Jesus Christ...he said it himself.. "I am the TRUTH"

OH! Well, why didn't you say so earlier? I thought I had overlooked some crucial piece of evidence! That settles it, then, you're right. I'm ashamed that I ever so much as questioned the absolute truth of your personal beliefs. You're lucky you didn't listen to us devil-possessed heathens before!

Psalm 12:15
"Fools think they need no advice, but the wise listen to others"

Which are you doing? Shoving your beliefs down the throats of others because you're blindly convinced that you're right, or keeping an open mind to the possibility that you might actually be wrong?

Originally Posted by Elis D.

So, Satan is God?



No. Because I know you don't know this... you believe this, but you have no proof.

Originally Posted by thegnome54

OH! Well, why didn't you say so earlier? I thought I had overlooked some crucial piece of evidence! That settles it, then, you're right. I'm ashamed that I ever so much as questioned the absolute truth of your personal beliefs. You're lucky you didn't listen to us devil-possessed heathens before!

Psalm 12:15
"Fools think they need no advice, but the wise listen to others"

Which are you doing? Shoving your beliefs down the throats of others because you're blindly convinced that you're right, or keeping an open mind to the possibility that you might actually be wrong?

I am not shoving anything down anbodys throat.. I am listening to other peoples comments,beliefs, and questions..AND answering any question to the best of my ability..The LORD doesnt ask me to SHOVE anything down anbody's throat.. He only ask that I spread his Message...

and to comment on ELLIS D... Satan is not God..He wants to be GOD...You say to prove Satan's work...What about Exorcism's that have been proven no doubt to be a Demon? Is that not the work of Satan?

Again i state, I am not shoving anything down anybody's throat, you are free to believe what you want, I am only here for those who want to listen....

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

I am only here for those who want to listen....

So I take it you're not getting anything out of this?

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

What about Exorcism's that have been proven no doubt to be a Demon? Is that not the work of Satan?

Are you serious?!?

Proven to be demons?!?

If demons have been proven, then this thread would be pointless.

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

Alot of people think that when they get all angry and mad and yell at somebody or say bad things about Christians its really them saying it... But sadly, it is not.. It is actually the actions of Satan working through them..Just like Jesus Christ can work through us, so can Satan.....

Wouldn't you agree that that gives people of that faith the ability to say "Satan made me do it"? And according to the above quote, sounds like it would be completely justifiable if you weren't in control of yourself i.e. "An entity working through you." I think that every human being should take responsibility for where they are in their lives and not look for others to blame for their shortcomings, yes...even Satan.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Wouldn't you agree that that gives people of that faith the ability to say "Satan made me do it"? And according to the above quote, sounds like it would be completely justifiable if you weren't in control of yourself i.e. "An entity working through you." I think that every human being should take responsibility for where they are in their lives and not look for others to blame for their shortcomings, yes...even Satan.

Exactly, that gives any rapist, murderer etc a total excuse for their crime. You say yourself it is not the fact the person is bad, it's Satan possessing them basically. So we should excuse them?

Also can you maybe answer some of mines questions that i posted pweases, they confuse me...

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

we can argue and argue all we want about all this...but we know one thing for sure, we will all die.....and in the end the truth will be revealed....the truth is Jesus Christ...he said it himself.. "I am the TRUTH, the way, and life, nobody comes to the father except through me"

One day every knee will bow.....

Even if what you say is true, I refuse. I will never bow down to any might, just like Merlock wouldn't.

Ok I can always say outloud "I am the TRUTH, the way, and life, nobody comes to the father except through me" - does that mean I really am the right one?

I am the TRUTH, the way, and life, nobody comes to the father except through me. ha just said it - although I don't believe in the "father" lol but it doesn't change anything

Just like you believe atheists are wrong, have you ever considered you could be the one wrong? That all the Jesus bullshit (and also the Satan/demon bullshit) could be all a fairytale? And that all your bashing around would be for nothing?

--

I did not bother to read your whole arguments because I think replying to each of them is a waste of time. Just a thing I read through the replies though - demons proven real? Scientifically? Lol if that ever happens, then you don't even have to waste your time convincing me.

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

we can argue and argue all we want about all this...but we know one thing for sure, we will all die.....and in the end the truth will be revealed....the truth is Jesus Christ...he said it himself.. "I am the TRUTH, the way, and life, nobody comes to the father except through me"

One day every knee will bow.....

And you seem to believe he was talking about his own physical self?

Originally Posted by spiritofthewolf

and to comment on ELLIS D... Satan is not God..He wants to be GOD...You say to prove Satan's work...What about Exorcism's that have been proven no doubt to be a Demon? Is that not the work of Satan?

Okay, I think that all of us here try very hard to not reduce ourselves to name calling, but dude, you are being plain out stupid now. That is the dumbest fundamentalist stupidity I've heard on this forum to date.

Demons were people with epilepsy and other similar conditions, read up on the story that inspired The Exorcism of Emily Rose and any other exorcism story. Also, Penn & Teller did an episode in season 5 on exorcism that completely dubunked them. They aren't real. And this is even trivial, I can see you arguing the existence of god or even the validity of Christianity (which you've done pathetically, I've heard better arguments from Dhinesh D'Souza), but arguing that demonic possessions are real takes away any validity of you not being so shoved up your fake-god Jesus' ass that you wouldn't hear reality if Thor came down personally and bitch slapped you.

first off.... what spiritofthewolf said is true aboult the demons BUT those who are truely saved cant be possesed because of Jesus. We can be maybe tormented but thats aboult it. So using that as an excuse is Def. false. In a nutshell when your for expample a rapist and he become saved yes hes FORGIVEN BUT if he rapes again and blames it on demons THAT only shows he wasnt saved in the first place cause if you were saved Jesus change you.cuddleyperson I answered some of your questions look up

The OP is that we must all understand that we are in a spiritual battle. I think most self-labeled atheists *do* accept this, but I shall speak for myself.

I don't expect the OP to understand, but I thought it might be interesting. Merry Christmas!

(1) I do fight a continuous spiritual battle against the imperfections of my human nature. The ability to find inherent meaning in the meaningless is one aspect of this. I consider the desire for absolute, unchanging truths a dangerous aspect.

I'm not saying that I have to deny God every morning I wake up. I'm saying I _keep an open mind_. I am scientifically minded. I know it's not possible to prove that God does not exist. I have seen many attempts to provide a logical or scientific proof of God but their flaws were obvious to me.

I would be less confident in this - more agnostic, as opposed to atheistic - if I lived in an earlier age where I was less able to explain the world. God is certainly convenient to resort to for explanations. But I am happy enough with my current ability to explain the world without God. My scientific beliefs are shored up by the general striving for rigor, which is best illustrated by the critical review of new and existing work.

Since I lack convincing evidence of anything beyond this world, I'm better off making the most of it. I will fight any influence which stands in my way, including my own demons. That might be selfishness, except I believe in *overcommitment* to friends, society and the entire civilization which supports me. Why waste time and effort trying to betray the trust of others, and then risk punishment? I think thats essentially the "true knowledge" of Ken Macleods _Cassini Division_.

So I agree that we're fighting a war against evil, and I'm sure I agree with you and everyone else on the majority of moral issues. Are you happy with that, spiritofthewolf?

Sorry about the bold text. I write too much though; I think its best to highlight the main points.

(2) The OP has shades of Pascals Wager, explaining that we risk our eternal souls if we do not have a safe position to stand; we risk being controlled by Satan.

The most obvious problem is that we have to accept God by name. We have to accept this specific God, the one who visited us as Jesus. Or did he speak to us through the prophet Mohamed? Or was Jesus a false prophet and should we stick to Judaism? Three quite closely related religions; there are hundreds more. How do you choose the right one? Personally I'm more scared by the potential ministrations of the dread god Cthulu, having failed to satisfy Him with human sacrifice.

And there are many other problems with it. I find this the most profound: The God of absolute power, who condemns those who reject him to infinite suffering, and rewards those who accept him with infinite life, is a God we should reject absolutely. Regardless of whether he exists, regardless of the potential consequences. The lesson we should take from _this_ world is that we should fight absolute power up to our last breath. Perhaps then, we will find it is not in fact invulnerable to our combined force.

A more comprehensive dismissal of Pascals Wager is available here:
<http://notesfromthegeekshow.blogspot.com/2007/04/halls-of-pentheus-part-two.html>

On a forum I used to go to a lot, a very religious guy who defended Christianity and the bible in hundreds of posts, went from deeply religious to agnostic from one verse from the bible.

this is a small part of what he posted one day:

"So yeah... I came across a verse a while back that kind of started to get my noodle baking... It's the one where Jesus is talking to His disciples about the end times (Matthew 24), and they ask Him when it will occur... He then goes on to say that no man, not even the Son (himself) knows when the end will come, but ONLY (I stress this as it's important) the Father knows the exact hour..."

and then later:

"Basically the point I'm getting at is that God the Father = Jesus = The Holy Spirit (A = B = C)...

If that's the case (as is portrayed in Scripture, and is taught by every branch of Christianity with the exceptions being Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses), then it would be impossible for one part of this being to know any more or any less than another part of this being. Why, then, does Jesus place such an emphasis on the fact that ONLY the Father knows the exact hour of the end? This would be impossible if Jesus and God the Father were one in the same. No if's and's or but's about it..."

I think it's amazing that he could come to realize this. It's a very good point too.


The point I really want to make, is that the Bible isn't the word of god. It was clearly written by many authors, who had their own version to the story. It is also known that the Bible has been edited, and parts left out. Why would anyone leave God's word out?

Someone said earlier in this thread about the God's before Christianity. I too wonder why God never showed himself to them, if he is so loving and caring. And everyone knows God's huuuuge kill count. If he does exist, he has killed more people than anyone on their own. And what about the Commandments? Thou shalt not kill? And the Holy Wars? Whatever happened to practice what you preach...

I don't think anything can be proven nor disproved. There is always a possibility of existing or not existing.

Another thing someone said earlier is what I was going to say. How do you know Satan isn't tempting you to believe Christianity? If he can do all of these other horrible things without God intervening, then his greatest temptation would be to lure people into Christianity and having them spread it.

Humans lie. All it takes is one lie from one person, and that lie gets passed down to their children and theirs and it spreads. The tell others and they like it and it spreads more. That's what happens with every religion, and every cult.

If God did exist, and he was so loving and caring, I don't think he would care what religion you believe in. I bet none of them are right, as they have all been influenced by sinful humans. The church had a lot of power all those years ago. And every new believer means more power. Humans crave power, it is obvious that the church would have become corrupt at one time or another and change something. There are so many different branches of Christianity today, how is it not obvious that humans wrote and made the laws of the Bible as they saw fit?

I know there's nearly no chance of any of you Christians will suddenly rethink all of your beliefs, but let it be known that it has happened before, with the guy I mentioned in the beginning.

I personally think that if I was a Christian, once I heard "Bible was edited" and all the inconsistencies in the Bible, I'd take a real hard look at my beliefs, and how they were influenced by humans, not God.

Originally Posted by Daeva

Interesting thought. Maybe 'Jesus' was 'Satans' greatest success

No. Muhammed was.

Topic creator, you are biased, narrow-minded and most probably indoctrinated. You create a topic as if it is a truth, and you create a topic as if you're going to set us all straight.

I sincerely hope you die in a fire have a good life, but next time fuck off please refrain from creating such topics full of aids fail idiocy .. Yeah, never mind. I won't finish my sentence.

Although I don't agree with the story that you related (because it is possible that the mortal manifestation of an omnipresent god would lack some of its universal knowledge), I agree with everything else you said, Yay.

It is inconceivable to me how anyone can look at what is in the bible today and see the word of anything but fallible and greedy men. The history of the catholic church is twisted and sordid and the line of corruption and manipulation can be traced back all the way to emperor Constantine. If you think that there is anything in the bible that Constantine didn't like then you are sadly mistaken and if you think you can go back and re-translate the hebrew and greek to overcome his changes then you don't understand how easy it would have been for him to simply destroy all record of anything that disagreed with his agenda.

If there ever was a single shred of truth to the bible, it has been twisted so far beyond recognition to be completely useless to anyone today.

Even without taking the fact that Christianity may very well have died out 1500 years ago if a powerful roman emperor who never converted hadn't adopted it as the state's religion in to account, I can't understand how someone can either ignore or simply not understand the fact that there were literally hundreds if not thousands of men claiming to be the messiah alive at the same time as Jesus. Basically, the entire Christian religion is based on a popularity contest in which your current savior won first place. There are glaring inconsistencies in the prophecies surrounding the Jewish Messiah and the events that supposedly brought about Jesus' existence (all of which I'd be happy to point out for you), and this is even after 2000 years of bending the truth to make him seem more legitimate.

Basically what I'm saying is, Even operating under the gross assumption that there was once a book that contained the divinely inspired word of god, it is physically impossible that enough of the original still exists to base an entire world view off of.

I mean no disrespect to you, Spirit of the wolf, and these children who mean to belittle and insult you are just that; pathetic, immature children. What I will say is that you should read the bible, and after you do you should read the Q'uran and the hindu and Buddhist Gitas and Vedas and whatever else you can get your hands on. I will not sit here and say that nothing our ancestors had to say was valid and that it is all a bunch of primitive bullshit. What I will say is that in order to learn from our ancestors we must take their knowledge that had merit, but we must also be capable of discarding what did not.

Originally Posted by Riot Maker

No. Muhammed was.

Now you're playing devils advocate.

Muhammed didn't create a religion which includes evangelists who sincerely believe and preach that 1) we have eternal souls 2) we are all sinners 3) after death, we will suffer eternal torment unless we are accepted into Heaven 4) To be accepted into heaven, it is both necessary and sufficient to have accepted Jesus as your saivour (sp?).

This is from a book I read by Billy Graham. As memory serves, he explicitly enumerated the possibilities.

1) Sincere deathbed conversion of a sinner -> heaven
2) Virtuous non-believer dies -> hell

I stopped reading the book almost immediately. I saw those two juxtaposed, and I was simply unwilling to learn anything more from it. Theres a limit to how much wrongness I feel safe exposing myself to at once.

--

Despite their source material, which it would be presumptuous of me to attempt to compare to the Bible, the Muslim world went through a liberal period of openness not unlike the Renaissance of Western Europe. I don't know of anything fundamental to Christianity that would prevent it from regressing to the blood-lust of the Crusades and other periods of excess. In the same way that a very narrow-minded version of Islam is currently at large in many countries.

True Christians extend the hand of friendship to the many Muslims who _do_ cherish the more liberal values of the democracies they live in. They desire and deserve your respect and good feeling.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Although I don't agree with the story that you related (because it is possible that the mortal manifestation of an omnipresent god would lack some of its universal knowledge), I agree with everything else you said, Yay.

Yeah I thought the same thing at first. And I haven't read all of the Bible, but the other guy has, so I trust he knows what he's talking about.

Like he said, the Bible said Jesus was God in a human form, and I think Jesus said things and taught new things by the word of God that he couldn't have known if he wasn't God or couldn't talk to him, so I don't see why he couldn't know.


I think it's impossible to really know though, so nothing I said really matters

the post aboult satan tempting us into christianity... christianity is based off the fact Jesus died for us. So satan tempting us ito that would not benifet his plan. Also Jesus is God. But rember We have the Father, the son and holy spirit, all in one. So worshiping jesus alone isnt right~we have the father who made us. Also Jesus was being an example of how we should all live- when he prayed to the father, refering that the father only knows meaning we should remember God~not just Jesus.