Thread: You'll never guess what religious book was dropped on my doorstep today.

Originally Posted by xXSomeGuyXx

Lol. Stoopid on topic n00b.

No seriously. Finding a Quran on your doorstep is the 12th most common dream sign.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

...really?

EDIT: Nice one! Got me there lol.

I had to buy my Koran also.

Do you have a source for that? I thought the Muslim population of Britain was the fastest growing minority by far.

I don't see how the growth of minorities is partciularly relevant?

I was just referring to how approximately 50% of Brits are atheists now. There's info on the Wikipedia page and can be easily Googled for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

I go to a pretty religious school and I'd say that most people there are atheist. Many youths of today are coming round to thinking that religion is an old superstition not worthy of notice. Maybe people think that because of all the atrocities commited in the name of religion at the moment... perhaps it's just the social climate allowing people to think freely. I don't know.

This is a pretty huge change from the 99% religious or so in 1900, anyway. It's not ridiculous to suggest that if the current trend continues, it'll only be 1% by 2100.

^^ That would be amazing. But I doubt the trend is linear like that.. my guess is it would oscillate. Actually I bet someone has already made a graph about this. I should check it out.

Well, just think back in general to what it was like 100 years ago... it's truly amazing how far we've come in the last century. I'm pretty sure none of us here could even make any comprehend what society will be like in another 100 years. I'm 50/50 on the ancient religions being completely dead by then... it's something I'd probably like to see happen, personally.

These are pretty exciting times, it's gotta be said... the world's never been changing so fast.

Yeah I agree... it is really exciting, and I really hope it'll happen. But it just amazes me how even in this day and age, some people still find a way to be ridiculously religious. I'm not talking about random folks who pray to god in the privacy of their own home when they're having a crisis... but people like those who run Jesus Camp, or people who are obsessed with Joel Osteen.. it's incredible!

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I'm a little shocked, to be honest, at the response this thread has received. A little ashamed too that it's coming from fellow DV members.

I'm glad to say that gone are the days when unconditional respect and tolerance for the world's oldest delusions is a given and expected commodity. A new scientific enlightenment is on the horizon.

As a child I was hopeful I'd see the end of organised religion in my lifetime. As a teenager I was pessimistic about even the possibility. Now I'm cautiously hopeful that we can pull this world back from the fire with reason and critical thinking before it's too late.

I never said anything about organized religion Alextanion. One does not have to be a part of organized religion in order to follow the actual system of beliefs. If there arose an extremist group of homosexuals who despised all straight people JUST because they were straight, would you blame homosexuals?

Do you blame the gun, or those who use the gun the wrong way?

I still believe that people should be allowed to think freely without fear of such criticism. Rest assured though that I agree with you as far as what organized religion is capable of. But a Koran, Torah, I-Ching or book of spells that an individual uses for themselves at no expense to others should not be an excuse for getting to verbally (or physically) assault that individual.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

A new scientific enlightenment is on the horizon.

You mean the way that science only recently proved a few of the passages of the Koran that explained specific phenomena in nature to be true? The internal behavior of storm clouds, and hail? The physiology of mountains beneath the surface? What about the way that the salinity and temperature of two bodies of water change immediately (within inches) where they meet? The process of a fetus's development in the womb? That was written over 1400 years ago. And we have now verified that the explanations out of the Koran for these things are in fact true, because we have the technology to finally do so. God can't possibly exist, they must have used magick or something. Blast those dastardly wizards.

All we're saying is that if you think the qur'an is in any way, shape or form a book worth reading, you are either illiterate, deluded, cruel or an idiot. OK, or an historian. I don't see how that could possibly be understood as being offensive.

Originally Posted by Serkat

All we're saying is that if you think the qur'an is in any way, shape or form a book worth reading, you are either illiterate, deluded, cruel or an idiot. OK, or an historian. I don't see how that could possibly be understood as being offensive.

Or a poet, being that no poet so far has been able to produce any piece of arabic text that sounds anything like the verses from the Koran. You only belittle the rest of humanity by inferring that the text itself is worthless garbage, when no one to date can reproduce text similar enough to it in structure and sound.

You knew that the text in the Koran was poetry too, right? Didn't you?

Originally Posted by invader_tech

Or a poet, being that no poet so far has been able to produce any piece of arabic text that sounds anything like the verses from the Koran. You only belittle the rest of humanity by inferring that the text itself is worthless garbage, when no one to date can reproduce text similar enough to it in structure and sound.

You knew that the text in the Koran was poetry too, right? Didn't you?

Frankly, I don't give two craps about Arabic poetry anymore than I give craps about Swahili poetry. I think the phonetic qualities of Arabic are horrible and also, since the actual content of the whole thing is mostly stupid shit, I couldn't care less about the structure or sound of it.

One reason nobody has produced a text "similar in structure and sound" is that languages change over time. You can be pretty sure that no Arab living today would be capable of conversing with Muhammad.

I doubt that there's no other Arabic text that has better literary and poetic qualities. If this is indeed so, then that's either because of the lacking secularization of the specific countries, or because nobody dared to produce something better for fear of being blasphemous.

It's the same as Christians claiming that, even if I don't like the contents, I have to admit that the stories in the bible are pretty good and the literary qualities are unparalleled. That's fucking bullshit. The stories are shit. I can go into any book store, pick a random book and it will most likely surpass the bible in just about all aspects. Any half-decent Hollywood movie is a better narrative than the damn bible.

Originally Posted by invader_tech

Or a poet, being that no poet so far has been able to produce any piece of arabic text that sounds anything like the verses from the Koran. You only belittle the rest of humanity by inferring that the text itself is worthless garbage, when no one to date can reproduce text similar enough to it in structure and sound.

You knew that the text in the Koran was poetry too, right? Didn't you?

Of course I did. But anyone producing 'poetry' like this, should be shunned accordingly for their bigoted, sexist and racist writings.

But lets see what it actually says shall we?

Cruelty in the Quran: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...elty/long.html
Sex in the Quran: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co.../sex/long.html (I especially like number 6, where you can rape your slaves)
Women in the Quran: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...omen/long.html
Injustice in the Quran: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co.../inj/long.html

Really? Beautiful poetry? Have you ever read this book or are you just parroting the same bullshit you've been told all your life? And I'm sure it sounds no better in 'true Arabic' as I'm led to believe it must be read in to gain its true meaning. Death to atheists, homosexuals and women who show skin doesn't magically sound nice if you say it in limerick.

Originally Posted by invader_tech

You mean the way that science only recently proved a few of the passages of the Koran that explained specific phenomena in nature to be true? The internal behavior of storm clouds, and hail? The physiology of mountains beneath the surface? What about the way that the salinity and temperature of two bodies of water change immediately (within inches) where they meet? The process of a fetus's development in the womb? That was written over 1400 years ago. And we have now verified that the explanations out of the Koran for these things are in fact true, because we have the technology to finally do so. God can't possibly exist, they must have used magick or something. Blast those dastardly wizards.

This is the wishful thinking of the people who try to justify their immoral book in a moral world. Stop parroting and start thinking for yourself. It also states several times that the sun revolves around the Earth, which we've known to be incorrect since about 500 BCE, but the Christian Church didn't give up its strangle hold until the 1500's.

I think the main problem with organized religions is that they are too resistant to change and adaptation. Because of this, I think they will all fade away in the future.

My grand parents, and my mom tried to get me to be catholic I think, but as soon as I was old enough to think for myself, I stopped going to church and abandoned religion in the traditional sense all together.

You only belittle the rest of humanity by inferring that the text itself is worthless garbage, when no one to date can reproduce text similar enough to it in structure and sound.

You know what you belittle? Our entire Western culture and values, when you attack people who give reasons why primative and barbaric bronze age beliefs have no place in a modern society. And you defend such things under the guise of them being poetry no less and because of their "structure and sound", not even under their own merit.

If you think such works deserve to be celebrated, no matter how absurd, damaging, and immoral the content is, because it sounds good, then you are truely an immoral (and idiotic) person yourself.

Originally Posted by Serkat

All we're saying is that if you think the qur'an is in any way, shape or form a book worth reading, you are either illiterate, deluded, cruel or an idiot. OK, or an historian. I don't see how that could possibly be understood as being offensive.

But the book is important. It can be worth reading because of the role it plays in the lives and motivations of a significant chunk of people, not just historically, but right now. One doesn't have to agree with the content of a book to benefit from understanding it.

Originally Posted by archdreamer

But the book is important. It can be worth reading because of the role it plays in the lives and motivations of a significant chunk of people, not just historically, but right now. One doesn't have to agree with the content of a book to benefit from understanding it.

That's a good point. Understanding religions will help with understanding the seemingly irrational behavior of a good percentage of the world's population. If there wasn't so much other interesting stuff that I really want to read, I might get around to it. It's just dauntingly huge. As for now, I'm already swamped with like 20 books I want to read, and no time in which to read them. ...Damn college.

I thought you were going to say "Dianetics" was dropped on your doorstep.

For some reason Muslims don't seem like the door-to-door type to me. Especially in America. I have a Muslim friend who is scared to even talk about his religion in public. Then again he won't read any news articles on the Internet about terrorism or Islam, because he is afraid of ending up on a terror watch list.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

It also states several times that the sun revolves around the Earth, which we've known to be incorrect since about 500 BCE, but the Christian Church didn't give up its strangle hold until the 1500's.

The Koran does not state that the sun revolves around the earth. It states that all celestial bodies have elliptical/circular movement throughout the universe. As for the scientific proofs of those natural phenomena that were detailed in the Koran (the ones previously mentioned as examples) was something that I came across via my own research. Nothing I was told before, ever, ever, ever. That somehow doesn't sound odd to you? That they discovered things we've only recently discovered through the use of advanced technology? Remember, my own research. No parroting here. No one ever said I was or was not an advocate of any religion (or anti-religious group).

I don't make it a habit to bash any person's beliefs. I'll certainly make it a habit though to bash one's actions if it causes any form of outward harm. This goes back to what I said about blaming the person vs' blaming the gun. A gun is a means of killing someone. The person makes the decision to use that gun for murder. Likewise, one can use a religious text to rally soldiers for some terrible cause (the crusades ring a bell for me). But those people can also use the gun for hunting. Perhaps for defending themselves. Religion, in many people's lives, provides them with peace of mind.

Is it the gun you're trying to get rid of, or the extremists who use it for the wrong reasons?

And rest assured, if you did get rid of it, people would find another means of going about their terrible ways. Although I'm sure that you could argue that getting rid of the people only means that new ones would eventually replace them. All the same, it's the people that have to take responsibility for their actions. Me feeling like I want to steal a car is not a crime, but going through with the action certainly is.

I don't think the majority of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc are violent. I haven't met any so far that have expressed any hostility because of differences in beliefs. Those small groups that DO express hostility certainly get enough media attention to overshadow the peaceful folks though. Enough so that it makes it awfully easy to just blame the entire religion as opposed to blaming those people responsible.

Notice you glazed over the rest of my post completely, without addressing the rape, violence, genocide, cruelty and injustice in the Koran, and went straight for one statement, which you have attempted to back up with an argument from personal experience?

Interesting.

Please show me the verses and how they relate to this:

The internal behavior of storm clouds, and hail? The physiology of mountains beneath the surface? What about the way that the salinity and temperature of two bodies of water change immediately (within inches) where they meet? The process of a fetus's development in the womb?

These are not examples of divine wisdom I would expect to get from the Creator of the Universe.

You seem to be lacking in knowledge of astronomy, too... it didn't take 'advanced technology' to work out eliptical orbits, all it required was Kepler and a telescope.

Any ancient proofs before then would be revolutionary to the history of science and mathematics so please say where they are.

Originally Posted by Xei

We need an anthem revamp some day. Britain's starting to have a majority atheist population.

I never sing the bloody thing because I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in having my money stolen so some fat old bitch can live in luxury her entire life whilst people are still dying of cancer, either.

Plus the tune's as boring as hell.

Hippie.

Yes, republicans are all hippies.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

The Quran.

Yep.

A first, for me at least.

I wonder what this means.

It is a bit weird to have a Quran dropped on your doorstep. Typically, it's considered sacrilege. Maybe some door-to-door NOI-ers dropped it by accident...?