Hypocrisy

[Xei]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8180116.stm I find this extremely hypocritical of the US. You're supposed to be a Christian nation. Your media drones on and on about the power of prayer and the love of God. And then when somebody attempts to apply it, you sentence them to 25 years in prison? I can't stand this ridiculous doublethink. If praying for a dying girl is illegal, then God is illegal. You can't pick and choose for chrissakes, they're mutually inclusive; it's completely logically sound if God is legal to act in a way that assumes the existence of God. *fumes*

[DrunkenArse]

Think about it this way. If the prayers had worked than it wouldn't be an issue. They didn't work so he must have prayed wrong or god would have listened. Now we have this pesky little thing called "separation of church and state" that means that we can't send him to jail for praying wrong so we send him to jail for denying her "medical care". It's sort of like saying that we are hypocrites for locking up al capone on tax evasion. We get the bad guys off the street however we can.

[ExoByte]

Bullshit. If there is a God, and he is our creator and gave us the intelligence to come this far, what would make more sense? Seeking out the means to help ourselves, or praying that God do the work for us? If a person is not willing to help themselves, why should God? If God gave us intellect, knowledge, reasoning and logic, and there was a hospital and medical care available for a sick girl and a person refused to seek out that care and instead asked God to do the work for him, where is the sense in that? God should not be expected to help people unwilling to help themselves, and therefore such people are negligent and should be found guilty of it. It's not illegal to pray for a dying person. But pray for them after you've sought (or during your search for) medical care. It's illegal to neglect what is available to you for assistance, and rely solely on prayer and God rather than the gifts hes given you. If you believe such things. You're an idiot. Your entire post is a logical fallacy. Get fucking real.

[DrunkenArse]

You're an idiot. I'm not sure who that is directed at but I assure that either way, it's just not true.

[Xei]

If a person is not willing to help themselves, why should God? God should not be expected to help people unwilling to help themselves, and therefore such people are negligent and should be found guilty of it. Yeah, why should God have helped that dying girl? I guess it was all her fault. No wait. She was unconscious. It was entirely the father's fault. Oh I see, so you're suggesting that God shouldn't have saved the girl because her father was a fucking idiot. Well that's fair. You're an idiot. Your entire post is a logical fallacy. Get fucking real. Firstly: don't be so rude. Secondly: either you don't understand the post or you don't understand the concept of a fallacy. It's quite lucid: The state allows and often encourages the Christian religion. This religion (often) states that by asking God to help you in times of need, God will help you. This also implicitly endorses the concept of 'faith' as opposed to science (one application of which is medicine). The state is therefore in no position to prosecute a person who puts such ideology in action.

[Universal Mind]

Xei, is God legal in Canada? Yes. So, does that mean people should be able to prevent their children from getting necessary medical care? No. The legality of religion and the illegality of child neglect can exist simultaneously, and they should. I think most Christians would say that prayer has significance and sometimes works but cannot be counted on every time, thus preventing necessary medical care should be illegal. The strangeness of the religion is a different issue, and I agree with you on a lot of that, but I don't believe in banning religion because some people do terrible stuff with it. I just think the terrible stuff should be banned and the religious people should have to figure out how to behave accordingly.

[ExoByte]

Yeah, why should God have helped that dying girl? I guess it was all her fault. No wait. She was unconscious. It was entirely the father's fault. Oh I see, so you're suggesting that God shouldn't have saved the girl because her father was a fucking idiot. Well that's fair. Firstly: don't be so rude. Secondly: either you don't understand the post or you don't understand the concept of a fallacy. It's quite lucid: The state allows and often encourages the Christian religion. This religion (often) states that by asking God to help you in times of need, God will help you. This also implicitly endorses the concept of 'faith' as opposed to science (one application of which is medicine). The state is therefore in no position to prosecute a person who puts such ideology in action. No. What I'm suggesting is that Christian nation preaching Christian ideals or not, the man deserves 25 years for negligence for relying purely on prayer and the power of God rather than using the logic, reason and intelligence given to him by said God to seek medical aid for his dying daughter. Because he choose not to act and instead hope that God acts, he is guilty of negligence. There is nothing wrong or hypocritical about a Christian nation imprisoning someone for practicing Christian ideals in such as way that can be either directly, or indirectly, harmful to someone. For example, it is not hypocritical for a Christian nation to prosecute a man whom relies solely on prayer and does not use the gifts of God he has been given to seek out medical aid on his own terms. It is perfectly reasonable and hypocritical of the US to do this. By the way, I'm an Atheist. I think religion should be abolished, and I think that, the religion people in the United States especially, are over zealous fanatics and that the entire concept of being a "Christian country" is ridiculous. However, even I can see the fact that even as a "Christian country," they are acting rationally.

[Xei]

Xei, is God legal in Canada? Yes. So, does that mean people should be able to prevent their children from getting necessary medical care? No. The legality of religion and the illegality of child neglect can exist simultaneously, and they should. I think most Christians would say that prayer has significance and sometimes works but cannot be counted on every time, thus preventing necessary medical care should be illegal. The strangeness of the religion is a different issue, and I agree with you on a lot of that, but I don't believe in banning religion because some people do terrible stuff with it. I just think the terrible stuff should be banned and the religious people should have to figure out how to behave accordingly. The problem is that there is a definite logical contradiction. In fact this reminds me of a thread I was going to make on a proposed axiomatic legal system. On the one hand, it is not illegal to fully believe that prayer works. On the other hand, it is illegal to sit around praying whilst somebody dies. The problem with eliminating the first is that it would infringe upon the freedom of thought. The problem with eliminating the second is that you can't kill people. My proposed solution is this: people are free to believe what they want. However, any action they undertake (as a result of their beliefs) which negatively affects another person against their will is illegal. It is a compromise because this means that people are not free to believe with convinction in things such as prayer, but in my opinion it is not much of a compromise because only stupid people do anyway. No. What I'm suggesting is that Christian nation preaching Christian ideals or not, the man deserves 25 years for negligence for relying purely on prayer and the power of God rather than using the logic, reason and intelligence given to him by said God to seek medical aid for his dying daughter. Because he choose not to act and instead hope that God acts, he is guilty of negligence. There is nothing wrong or hypocritical about a Christian nation imprisoning someone for practicing Christian ideals in such as way that can be either directly, or indirectly, harmful to someone. For example, it is not hypocritical for a Christian nation to prosecute a man whom relies solely on prayer and does not use the gifts of God he has been given to seek out medical aid on his own terms. It is perfectly reasonable and hypocritical of the US to do this. The problem is that that stance is not logically consistent. As I alluded to, the stance effectively endorses nonsensical thinking (as prayer is a subset of this). What if there was a religious branch which stated that God abhors medicine, as it is an attempt to interfere in his will? I mean, God is omnipotent, so it follows that he tried to kill that man's daughter; so really, if that man was a true Christian, he should have just let his daughter die instead of attempting to save her, in a clear violation of God's will. See what I mean? The entire thing leads unavoidably to ridiculous ideas like that.

[Photolysis]

rather than using the logic, reason and intelligence given to him by said God What makes you think this man had any?

[Oneironaut Zero]

You're an idiot. Your entire post is a logical fallacy. Get fucking real. You seriously need to chill out.

[Replicon]

You want hypocrisy? From the article: "If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," he said. "I am not believing what he said he would do." Followed immediately with: He also said he thought his daughter had had flu or a fever, and that he had not realised how ill she was. So, what, he believes God will do anything if he prays, and he would never put a doctor before god... but only if it's an illness that most generally-healthy people don't actually tend to die from very often? "I'll use faith healing, if it's an illness they'll get better from on their own anyway." In any case... yeah, I don't think this guy should be tried as a murderer. He *should* be tried as an irresponsible parent. You know, like the abusive crackhead who gets children taken away because she's deemed unsuitable to raise a child safely and without messing it up.

[Zhaylin]

The world has a bad habit of always trying to step in when they percieve a child being mistreated. Whether rightly or wrongly, the man had freedom of religion but the second his religious beliefs endangered another person (and a child inable of mature consent) then, by law, the government had to step in. I have mixed views about the topic. The Bible says: 'healthy people don't need a doctor, the sick do' and the disciple Luke was himself a doctor. I understand that people are supposed to seek medical treatment when necessary. But not everyone shares my religious beliefs. At the same time, the Bible also says "keep abstaining from blood". So no matter how much a doctor insisted I or one of my children needed a transfusion, I would not consent (in my eyes though, my kids are old enough now to make that decission and they don't share my beliefs, so they'd have no trouble accepting blood and I wouldn't fight them about that). A long time ago the Egyptians thought rubbing urine and feces into a wound would help it heal. I view using blood with the same disgust as the old Egyptian practice. If a doctor insisted I needed it, I would find a better, more educated doctor- but I would still seek treatment. Jehovah's Witnesses have gone to jail in the past for refusing blood for their kids. I stand by the parent's decissions. Blood transfusions often cause more harm than good. But that's my personal view... so, like I said... I have mixed feelings on the topic.

[Xei]

A long time ago the Egyptians thought rubbing urine and feces into a wound would help it heal. I view using blood with the same disgust as the old Egyptian practice. If a doctor insisted I needed it, I would find a better, more educated doctor Are you kidding? The Egyptians were extremely superstitious and had no rationale at all for their treatments. Nowadays we have something called the scientific method, and it allows us to distinguish between those treatments which work and those which work, in a rational manner. To say that any doctor who suggests blood transfusions is uneducated is not only ignorant and false but also extremely disrespectful to those who dedicate their lives to the public service that is the medical profession. Jehovah's Witnesses have gone to jail in the past for refusing blood for their kids. I stand by the parent's decissions. In my suggested legal axioms those parents would go straight to jail, and I would not be remotely sorry. This is the 21st century for God's sakes...

[Advantageous Noodle]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8180116.stm I find this extremely hypocritical of the US. You're supposed to be a Christian nation. Your media drones on and on about the power of prayer and the love of God. And then when somebody attempts to apply it, you sentence them to 25 years in prison? I can't stand this ridiculous doublethink. If praying for a dying girl is illegal, then God is illegal. You can't pick and choose for chrissakes, they're mutually inclusive; it's completely logically sound if God is legal to act in a way that assumes the existence of God. *fumes* What country do you live in? Have you ever watched television in the United States? The media doesn't drone on and on about God, not even the right wing networks. Saying that we're such a Christian nation is so untrue. We used to be, but for better or for worse, we're not anymore. ExoByte, I'm so sorry to have to tell you this, but grow up. The atheists are allowed to insult the Christians all they want, say abolish this religion, abolish that one. But whenever the Christians try to defend themselves from it the atheists cry out that they're being oppressed by the 'Bible-thumpers.' It's fucking ludicrous. The atheists (on this website) just continue to prove themselves to be complete fakes at every single turn. It's an absolutely disgusting and childish way of thinking. You have every single ounce of my pity. I know that I'm getting into trouble for this, but seriously folks... Where is the fairness? Where is equality and respect? Seriously, something's gotta give sooner or later. Can we base our decisions on logic and information and conscience as opposed to how much we hate someone just because they have different beliefs? Come the fuck on kids. EDIT - sorry ExoByte. I didn't realize that you're only eighteen years old. I apologize for holding you to the standard of people who actually know what they're talking about and why they say what they say. It was completely my bad.

[Xei]

You're off your rocker if you think the purpose of this thread is to 'insult Christians'. This thread is entirely about the place of religion within legal systems... and as far as can see there has been no insulting of anybody due to faiths. Of course if you were talking about DV in general then none of the above applies because it's true that such things happen from time to time (although I still think you're exaggerating). I'm in the UK and I'm just repeating the general vibe I get from the vast majority of films from the US and other media, as well as things said by politicians. Perhaps it isn't representative but there you go.

[Universal Mind]

ExoByte, I'm so sorry to have to tell you this, but grow up. The atheists are allowed to insult the Christians all they want, say abolish this religion, abolish that one. But whenever the Christians try to defend themselves from it the atheists cry out that they're being oppressed by the 'Bible-thumpers.' It's fucking ludicrous. The atheists (on this website) just continue to prove themselves to be complete fakes at every single turn. It's an absolutely disgusting and childish way of thinking. You have every single ounce of my pity. I know that I'm getting into trouble for this, but seriously folks... That is absolutely preposterous. The only atheist here who ever brought up the idea of abolishing religions was Xei, who said in the very same (this) thread that it is not an option. He was just pointing out a double standard in society. I also flat out said abolishing religion is not an option. You are acting hysterical and prejudiced. And when in the Hell did any atheist here ever complain about being "oppressed" by the religious people here, especially on the basis that religious people are taking up for themselves against attacks? I have yet to see an atheist here complain about being oppressed by religious people here. It is always the other way around. Have you read DaveJ's posts, for example? A lot (not all) of the Christians who come to this site can't even have a debate. They just get offended and whine that atheists question Christianity... in a RELIGION forum of all places! You made up a whole bunch of nonsense to write that hateful post. I think you should re-examine what you said and take it back. If you won't do that, prove to me that I am a fake. I challenge you.

[Black_Eagle]

Are you kidding me? Only the conservative talk show hosts (Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh in particular) are outspoken about God. What you don't understand is that most people who believe in God don't actually follow the religion they are a part of and wouldn't ever think of taking the notion of faith healing seriously. Politicians talking about religion is pretty much just a way to identify with the 78% of our population that identify themselves as Christian. It is hypocritical but not quite in the same way Xei is suggesting. It's hypocritical in the sense that people say they are Christian and do not follow Christian beliefs. After all, it wasn't he act of praying that was illegal, it was the deadly negligence.

[Xei]

Just saying it how it is. That's how the USA is perceived in the UK, and I feel most of Europe. We're quite a secular nation so it kind of grates whenever the G word pops up in the media... it's a bit cringey. I understand completely that only a very small minority of people in the US would do something as stupid as the man in the article, but still the concept of prayer and 'God's plan' is quite heavily mingled with your cultural identity. One nation under God, right..?

[DrunkenArse]

I pretty much agree with the characterization of the US as a religious nation. We don't even realize how bad it is because of all this garbage about "respecting" other peoples views. How am I honestly supposed to respect somebody for believing that there is a man in the sky? The local bans on strip clubs, the illegality of prostituition, the illegality of gay marriage, the illegality of drugs (imposed on the rest of the world by the US) and others are all shaped by a christian sense of morality and are in direct contradiction to the principle of seperation of church and state.

[Advantageous Noodle]

Prove that you're not a fake. Prove that you respect everyone's beliefs. It shouldn't be a challenge for you. Convince me and I will admit that I'm wrong.

[DrunkenArse]

Prove that you're not a fake. Prove that you respect everyone's beliefs. It shouldn't be a challenge for you. Convince me and I will admit that I'm wrong. I don't respect everyones beliefs. why should I? Should I respect the beliefs of the parents that let their kid die? Of course I shouldn't. The notion of respecting everyones beliefs is just a bunch of typical liberal hypocrite bullshit. There are good beliefs and bad beliefs. I said this in condensed form above. I surely don't respect your beliefs or your ability to adapt your preconceved notions to reality. EDIT: I tolerate the existence of your beliefs and exercise my right to try to dissuade people that hold them for the greater good

[Universal Mind]

Prove that you're not a fake. Prove that you respect everyone's beliefs. It shouldn't be a challenge for you. Convince me and I will admit that I'm wrong. That's ridiculous. You made the rotten claim. Back it up with something, or else prove to me that you don't rape frogs. You don't have anything in mind right now, do you? Yet you made the claim. Now who's intolerant? Why are you being so hateful? Aren't Christians supposed to be loving and kind? Prove you are like THAT.

[Black_Eagle]

Just saying it how it is. That's how the USA is perceived in the UK, and I feel most of Europe. That's...actually quite depressing x.x I never views the United States as a Christian nation. I feel like the Americans who do are perverting the core principles this nation was founded upon. That's ridiculous. You made the rotten claim. Back it up with something, or else prove to me that you don't rape frogs. You don't have anything in mind right now, do you? Yet you made the claim. Now who's intolerant? Why are you being so hateful? Aren't Christians supposed to be loving and kind? Prove you are like THAT. Do you see the parallels between your and AN's exchange and a typical religious argument? "Prove that you're not fake." How very lulzy and amusing.

[Universal Mind]

Do you see the parallels between your and AN's exchange and a typical religious argument? "Prove that you're not fake." How very lulzy and amusing. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I get a bizarre claim thrown at me and ask that it be proven, only to be asked to prove that it is not true. Some religious people don't seem to understand the absurdity of that, even after they are told about the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[juroara]

some people here seriously have anger management problems. what if it wasn't faith healing? what if it was something else? what if he was a shamen and tried using herbs? what if they were wiccan and tried to invoke the spirits? what if they performed a ritual every night? isn't practicing religion, a right in this country? doesn't a parent have the right to decide how to treat their child? doesn't the parent have the right to decide they don't want to treat their child with medications? they don't want to go through with a surgery? where is the line drawn? is jail to punish people, revenge, or is it to keep our streets safe? after all, if his claim is true, isn't losing his child enough of a punishment? what will be resolved by tossing him into jail, except to satisfy the publics anger? I mean, parents have done a lot of stupid things that have gotten their kids killed. Seriously. A mother was preparing bleach water, turns away for five minutes. Her child gets curious and dies before she can even call the ambulance. This mother was torn apart by the media. And made out to be horrible negligent monster for letting her eyes off the bleach water and her child for five minutes.................what's that? mothers don't have eyes on their backs? In my opinion for negligence to be a crime it has to be willful negligence. A matter if the parent knew better, and did not do better. Versus someone who was ignorant, and honestly did not realize they could do better. Is it an American right, with the right to practice any religion under the sun, to make the claim that faith healing, a religious practice, is better than going to the hospital? After all, if this man honestly believed that he needed the hospital to save his child, don't you think he would have taken his child to the hospital? In my opinion the real question at hand is, not whether or not he has the right to practice faith healing, of which he does, but whether or not his claim is true. almost every christian I know has heard the story of God sending a rescue helicopter to save a man, and the man refusing the helicopters help expecting some glorious angel instead..... most churches I know actually do teach that God's miracles manifest in the actions of humans. that a doctor saving your life is in fact a miracle stop by and visit angel websites and a good number of angel websites testify that angels are busy working at hospitals point being, most christians view the hospital, as a place where God is doing his work I have not heard of a single church that teaches against going to a hospital. that you some how have to choose a hospital or God. and if this man is being honest, that he honestly did feel he had to choose a doctor or God, then I would label his church as a cult - and put them on trial