Thread: Atheism leads to Immoral Behavior

Prison rates and divorce rates are quite a bit higher in the UK among Christians anyway.

"ooohhh I’ll accept Jesus and then run out and have major drunken orgies and top it of with massive murders"

...



I must say nothing...

I am focused...

I am calm...

Who's to say I'm denying myself anything? Why give up something that is so meaningful to just anyone? I believe that giving yourself to your wife or husband is the best gift you could ever give them.

Yet below you say that you dont look at porn because it "brings lust into your life". So you have no lust for your wife? Whats wrong with watching a little porn together to get the juices flowing? Are you not strong enough to enjoy the beauty of the female form without running out and being adulturous? And what of using porn for its educational value, whats wrong with learning a few new things to keep your relationship fresh or are you the sterotypical xtian who can only make love with the lights off in the "approved" missionary position and a strong desire to pray afterwards. Chrisitans seem very weak and prudish to me.

I know Christians who will have a beer or two, who will have a glass of wine or two but will not indulge in it. I also know Christian who will go out and gamble a little from time to time but will not indulge in that either. When you indulge in it enough that it affects your life and affects your relationship with God then yes, you do need forgiveness for it. As far as pornography, that brings lust into your life. Take me for example, if I watched porn and lust was brought into my heart then in God's eyes that would be the same as adultery.

Then god is a dick and should not have given us emotions, imagination and genitalia. AND as this is a lucid dreaming forum you should know that many of us enjoy erotic lucid dreams. The practice of which is not adultery! Nor are "sinful thoughts" or having a quiet wank.

Yes I know there are different types of hell and I respect other people's view points on it. Christians have a different view of hell and my friends that I know that are of different religions respect my view as well. What's the problem with that? If you don't believe in hell or believe my view of hell then you have nothing to worry about and it shouldn't be an issue.

Oh I dont have issues with it. I dont beleive in your myths. The point I was making is that the Xtian brand God (c) RCC 350EV. Is sold as "the god of love, mercy and forgiveness", yet all the other religions seem to have a much fairer system based on a punishment that fits the crime followed by going to heaven. Not so christianity - therefore bad branding.

We do not have a built in get out of hell free card... When a person accepts Jesus, turns from sin then it is a 180 degree turn for that person. Christianity isn't about "ooohhh I’ll accept Jesus and then run out and have major drunken orgies and top it of with massive murders". Doesn't work that way.

Total BS. As has been pointed out many times xtians commit crimes, and adultery and get up to all the very things listed as "sinnful". Yet can get forgiven through confession, absolution and repenting. Look how many TV evangelists and religious right wing republicans get caught with their pants down, then wail nauseatingly in public about their sin and how they were tempted by the devil, and then claim Jesus will forgive them.

And WTF is it with the mass murders! who said anything about that! Mass murder! Oh - and there's nothing wrong with orgies. As long as all are consenting adults then where's the harm - other than it upsets prudish xtians with all their body shame and sex issues.

That first part of my life was wasted in a way and in a way it was not. I feel over time, it actually brought me closer to God. It showed me that road was a dead in street. I am so much happier now, my life is filled with so much more joy then sitting in a bar or downing a case of beer. There was no point to my life during that time.

I cant understand when people say they have no point to their lives. I have had a plan for mine since I was 14. I agree with O'nus - there is a certain type of person who needs a god / imaginary freind and there are those of us that are focused, strong and driven.

I look for God's direction in everything I do. If I were to plant one seed then it would be worth being here.

Fine - you must do what you will - but know I shall be sowing seeds of doubt in the name of reason and common sense.

It's common sense that someone who (truly) believes they will be punished for eternity for their wrongdoings will be less likely to do something like commit a murder, steal, lie, cheat on their spouse, vandalize, etc. than someone who believes that the only prosecution he will get will be from his fellow man.

You can say "the Crusades" or something if you want, but those were bad people and I hardly believe they took their beliefs seriously if they thought their actions were justified.

But bearing in mind that the Bible's version of moral justice often includes genocide, stoning to death, etc.?

Originally Posted by Tarsier

It's common sense that someone who (truly) believes they will be punished for eternity for their wrongdoings will be less likely to do something like commit a murder, steal, lie, cheat on their spouse, vandalize, etc. than someone who believes that the only prosecution he will get will be from his fellow man.

You can say "the Crusades" or something if you want, but those were bad people and I hardly believe they took their beliefs seriously if they thought their actions were justified.

Its not common sense, as has been pointed out many times the prisons aren't full of non beleivers - in fact as a percentage of the general population the prison popultaion has a representative proportion of xtians or even higher.

It often amazes me how people seem to think that a lack of faith means anarchy. I once read an essay by an evangelist that proposed that all atheists are pshycopaths and would commit any and every crime and the only reason they dont is because of the laws of society. Self righteous BS!!!

People have a huge capacity for love. Any decent parent raises their children with a fundamental set of rights and wrongs - and these are not the copyrighted property of religion. People are by nature social and are more inclined to love, decency and companionship than the religious would have us believe.

BTW - the church ordered the crusades. As they did the inquisitions. As they did the burning of 20,000 jewish men, women and children in strasbourg, plus countless other examples. By your logic therefore the church over the last 2000 years has been run by bad people (ironically the same guys that have been editing and abridging the "good book" since 350 EV). Hmmmmm.

Originally Posted by Tarsier

It's common sense that someone who (truly) believes they will be punished for eternity for their wrongdoings will be less likely to do something like commit a murder, steal, lie, cheat on their spouse, vandalize, etc. than someone who believes that the only prosecution he will get will be from his fellow man.

You can say "the Crusades" or something if you want, but those were bad people and I hardly believe they took their beliefs seriously if they thought their actions were justified.

I think what you mean to say is that it is common belief. Also, you are making a sweeping generalization about the entire Christian Empire of the medieval times.

Furthermore, do you not think that it is better for someone to do good for the sake of doing good than do good for the sake of avoiding punishment? I do not know about you, but that is why I am good to people.

In addition, prison rates seem to prove you otherwise;

"The data came from Denise Golumbaski, who was a Research Analyst for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The data was compiled from up-to-the-day figures on March 5th, 1997. (Note that as of the year 1999, Analyst Golumbaski is no longer working for the Federal Bureau of Prisons; I had telephoned Analyst Golumbaski to request the latest figures, and was told by another analyst that Golumbaski was no longer employed there.) The data was requested by Mr. Rod Swift, who passed it on to me for my web site. I later called the Federal Bureau of Prisons and confirmed that the data did in fact come from their database."

Response : Number : %
Catholic 29,267 31.432%
Protestant 26,162 28.097%
None/Atheist/Unknown 18,537 19.908%
Muslim 5,435 5.837%
American Indian 2,408 2.586%
Nation of Islam 1,734 1.862%
Rastafarian 1,485 1.595%
Jewish 1,325 1.423%
Church of Christ 1,303 1.399%
Pentecostal 1,093 1.174%
Moorish 1,066 1.145%
Buddhist 882 0.947%
Jehovah's Witnesses 665 0.714%
Adventist 621 0.667%
Eastern Orthodox 375 0.403%
Latter-day Saints 298 0.320%
Scientology 190 0.204%
Atheist 156 0.209%
Hindu 119 0.128%
Santeria 117 0.126%
Sikh 14 0.015%
Baha'i 9 0.010%
ISKCON 7 0.008%
-------------------- ------ --------
Total 93,112 100.000%

+ http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html#altformat

Hrm. Seems that peoples criminal behaviour prove your statement completely wrong.

What do you think...?

~

That's incorrect statistics O'nus. Those figures should be per capita.

Divide each percentage by the percentage of the whole population that make up each demographic. Then you'll get the proportion of each demographic in prison and you can make a valid statement.

I agree with your main point though; people who need to be threatened to stop them doing things which are wrong aren't really good people.

So be it, per capita data:

USA:
Prisoners per capita; 738
Prison population per 100k of national population; 701
Percent Atheists, Agnostics, and Non-believers in God; 3%

+ Zuckerman, Phil. "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns", chapter in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by Michael Martin, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, UK (2005). (http://www.adherents.com/la...), International centre for Prison Studies (http://www.prisonstudies.org/), and OECD Factbook (http://titania.sourceoecd.o...)
+ http://www.swivel.com/graphs/csv/18369455?limit=0

Better?

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

So be it, per capita data:

USA:
Prisoners per capita; 738
Prison population per 100k of national population; 701
Percent Atheists, Agnostics, and Non-believers in God; 3%

+ Zuckerman, Phil. "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns", chapter in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by Michael Martin, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, UK (2005). (http://www.adherents.com/la...), International centre for Prison Studies (http://www.prisonstudies.org/), and OECD Factbook (http://titania.sourceoecd.o...)
+ http://www.swivel.com/graphs/csv/18369455?limit=0

Better?

~

Very good.

Remind me O'nus, last I read xtians are about 75% of the USA population, right? (and dropping at the rate of 1% per year)

I'm guessing that Atheists, Agnostics, and Non-believers in God are more than 3%, right?

No. The above is meaningless and doesn't relate to anything I said.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but you shouldn't use statistics unless you understand them.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Very good.

Remind me O'nus, last I read xtians are about 75% of the USA population, right? (and dropping at the rate of 1% per year)

I'm guessing that Atheists, Agnostics, and Non-believers in God are more than 3%, right?

About 16%.



~

Originally Posted by Xei

No. The above is meaningless and doesn't relate to anything I said.

I don't mean to be a jerk, but you shouldn't use statistics unless you understand them.

You are often very pretentious with me with little substance.

Perhaps you could tell me how these statistics are irrelevant rather than insult me? I expect more from you. You want the per capita representation of each religion? All that really matters is the Atheist one to make the point. But if you'd like, I can pull up the others.

I just hope you have some constructive thing to say in response. I do not see how I am ignorant in my contributions, as you say.

~

I just said I wasn't trying to be a jerk, but this is basic statistics and hence basic honesty. This isn't pretence.

What you've done is said that because there are more Christians in prison than atheists, Christians commit more crime than atheists.

This is not necessarily representative of the truth at all. Imagine that there were 1,000,000 Christians and 10 of these were in jail, and 2 atheists, 1 of whom is in jail.

By your reasoning, it'd be a fair statement to say 'Christians commit 10 times as much crime as atheists'.

Of course this is bunk because looking at the proportions, only 0.001% of Christians commit crime wheras 50% of atheists do.

So, as I said, to get a representative view you need to divide the percentage of Christians in prison by the percentage of Christians in the country and the percentage of atheists in prison by the percentage of atheists in the country, and then compare the two numbers.

Originally Posted by Xei

I just said I wasn't trying to be a jerk, but this is basic statistics and hence basic honesty. This isn't pretence.

I see what you are saying now - thank you for elaborating. I wish it was initial.

What you've done is said that because there are more Christians in prison than atheists, Christians commit more crime than atheists.

This is not necessarily representative of the truth at all. Imagine that there were 1,000,000 Christians and 10 of these were in jail, and 2 atheists, 1 of whom is in jail.

By your reasoning, it'd be a fair statement to say 'Christians commit 10 times as much crime as atheists'.

Of course this is bunk because looking at the proportions, only 0.001% of Christians commit crime wheras 50% of atheists do.

So, as I said, to get a representative view you need to divide the percentage of Christians in prison by the percentage of Christians in the country and the percentage of atheists in prison by the percentage of atheists in the country, and then compare the two numbers.

This is a good point. Although, I never intended to debate that Atheists are "better" of any sense, it is certainly clear that everyone will commit crimes, no matter what the belief. Unfortunately, there is no country that is explicitly Atheist (or, let us say Humanist) to take a representative sample from.

Still, we can take those comparisons, as you said.

I will work on it and leave the below space. Unlike others (eg. Noogah, lol), I will fulfill this in less than 30 minutes.

Note; I am going to strictly focus on the USA (even though I am not American, just arbitrary)

Originally Posted by O'nus

Response : Number : %
Catholic 29,267 31.432%
Protestant 26,162 28.097%
None/Atheist/Unknown 18,537 19.908%*
Muslim 5,435 5.837%
American Indian 2,408 2.586%
Nation of Islam 1,734 1.862%
Rastafarian 1,485 1.595%
Jewish 1,325 1.423%
Church of Christ 1,303 1.399%
Pentecostal 1,093 1.174%
Moorish 1,066 1.145%
Buddhist 882 0.947%
Jehovah's Witnesses 665 0.714%
Adventist 621 0.667%
Eastern Orthodox 375 0.403%
Latter-day Saints 298 0.320%
Scientology 190 0.204%
Atheist 156 0.209%
Hindu 119 0.128%
Santeria 117 0.126%
Sikh 14 0.015%
Baha'i 9 0.010%
ISKCON 7 0.008%
-------------------- ------ --------
Total 93,112 100.000%

+ http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html#altformat

Hrm. Seems that peoples criminal behaviour prove your statement completely wrong.

What do you think...?

~

Somethings wrong, the data I have for this is contradictory on its own website depending on which page I am viewing. They claim to be the same but complete erroneous. I must find new prison data, which is hard to get it seems.

Updated;

Well, I cannot find any reliable data-sets to represent that data (per capita prison religious beliefs to population). If you can find one, please share. Here is what I did find;

86% of American adults identified as Christian in 1990 and 76% in 2008.
Since 2001, there is an upward trend of non-denominational Christian identity.
The challenge to Christianity in the US does not come from other religions but rather from a rejection of all forms of organized religion.
34% of Americans considered themselves Born Again or Evangelical
+ http://livinginliminality.files.word...eport_2008.pdf

"Over 80% of inmates were currently affiliated with a denomination different from the one in which they were raised, with a net movement from conservative Protestant to mainline traditions. Contrary to expectation, religious characteristics of older inmates were not greatly different from those of non-incarcerated older adults"
+ http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

Stupid geriatrics. I will keep an eye out but it seems to be a difficult statistic to represent prison religious beliefs in general. Anyone else have any luck?

Either way, the original point still remains; religious people still commit a lot of crime. We can debate over which one is more or less, but the point still remains where Tarsier was arguing that people would do less crime if they believed in God. This is simply not true.

~

Evangelical fools should stop judging and condemning non-believers and those of different religions/ideologies.

It FREAKS me out how these people can't seem to have an inch of understanding or respect for people who have different beliefs than their own.

This same ignorant, judgemental, superiority-mentality was what fueled Christians to discriminate, murder many millions of Jews from the medieval times till WO2 and continuing. It also fueled the whiping out, oppressing and massmurder of South American Maya-Aztec people's and their entire culture.

It happened to be the same mentality that agreed with and fueled the mass slavery of Africans.

This mentality seems to suggest that anyone who does not hold Christian common beliefs, is an inferior human being and exploiting, enslaving and mass murdering them is justified. With this mentality still going strong in many Christian circles, Christianity has proven itself to be not an inch less radical, respectless and violent than Islam.

I mean for many 100ds of years Christians have been killing other christians for different beliefs. And all in the name of God. They must not be aware of the fact that by keeping this mentality, they are Satan's marionette puppets.

I am athiest. I live by a thing some religions call "the golden rule", it is basically about doing onto others as they would do onto you. I live by that and I don't need religion to keep me by it.

And, how do you tell if a person is morally good? There are SO MANY different arguments about it you wouldn't believe. I have been learning about all that crap in religious, moral and philosophical studies class in school.

Morality can be based around actions, intentions and what not. So, an athiest could end up doing the exact same thing as a religion person would, and the athiest could end up being called "immoral", because of intentions.

That's really random SKA. I don't see how that has anything to do with what these guys are talking about. Way to be a MegaHostileHypocrite™. >_<

To O'nus: I was talking about people who believe they will be punished eternally for their wrongdoings, not "Christians". Most Christians believe that they are saved from their sins just because they believe in Jesus. A lot of people who go to Prison acquire a belief in God afterwards because they feel guilty for what they've done, or what ever other reason. A belief in God does not mean a belief in eternal punishment, and it also does not mean the person believes in following the Ten Commandments.

Tarsier, that you don't see how my previous post was perfectly related to the subject at hand has to do with your vision and (lacking?)ability to make connections, not with my post.

My post isn't random, but I guess you're rather random yourself by being a smartypants to me for no appearant reason. What's up your ass that makes you act so bitchy towards me? Strange, I don't remember you as a troll...

Let me simplify before you start smartassing me again:
The ignorant mentality that has Christians redicule and harshly judge others with differing beliefs and the general forcing of their beliefs uppon others, is the same mentality that made Christians engage in Slavery, Opression, Discrimination and mass murder of entire populations of non-christians.

There. Capiche? Comprende? Understood?

So yes that has EVERYTHING to do with the subject at hand. Read better before you call someone Hypocrite and his post Random.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Scientology 190 0.204%
Atheist 156 0.209%

Why is the number not proportional to the percentage here?

Originally Posted by SKA

Tarsier, that you don't see how my previous post was perfectly related to the subject at hand has to do with your vision and (lacking?)ability to make connections, not with my post.

My post isn't random, but I guess you're rather random yourself by being a smartypants to me for no appearant reason. What's up your ass that makes you act so bitchy towards me? Strange, I don't remember you as a troll...

Let me simplify before you start smartassing me again:
The ignorant mentality that has Christians redicule and harshly judge others with differing beliefs and the general forcing of their beliefs uppon others, is the same mentality that made Christians engage in Slavery, Opression, Discrimination and mass murder of entire populations of non-christians.

There. Capiche? Comprende? Understood?

So yes that has EVERYTHING to do with the subject at hand. Read better before you call someone Hypocrite and his post Random.

I'm not convinced.

I'm not conviced that you're smarter than the average three year old.

I am an atheist. But I find it important to respect one and other. I don't need a bearded man in a robe to know morals.
Just sounds like another attack at atheists from butthurt religious groups.

Originally Posted by imran_p

I'm not conviced that you're smarter than the average three year old.

no u