Thread: No Evidence of the paranormal?

Originally Posted by O'nus

Of course I do think there are relationships there.

My question was if you think all subjective perceptions have relationships with objective phenomena. I.e. Not just some, but all; only to objective phenomena. Since there isn't always logical relationships, it is simple enough to say that it is meaningless to have objectivity about those perceptions that are independent from objects. The experience of intuition for example, can be reliable and true yet become inexplicable to scientific reasoning. Is logic still then worth "embracing" to understand it because it is not worth giving up? Similarly, if a non-verbal or non-conceptual understanding comes up within a person, can words explain it exactly as they should? The answer is no. In fact, the entire panorama of experience is unexplainable without first identifying with the objective world. Thus, objective reasoning is simply restricted to the objective world. Beyond that, things get blurred.

Originally Posted by O'nus

The point being that, even in the limitations of logic and reason, there is no reason to embrace it because it is just as good as embracing chaotic nonsense. Perhaps embracing the transcendence of the unity of all things and then realizing that we still live in a tangible world is what you speak of. In that case, sure. Do you know what I mean..? (I don't mean that patronizing, I just wonder if I am conveying my point properly)

~

I'm not sure what you mean, the way you have written it is suggestible to other things.

Logic/reason will never "die" yet it cannot exceed itself. A spiritual paradigm (in general) does not replace or contradict logic but it transcends it. Paradigms are models of reality; they do not necessarily have to prove each other nor deny each other, especially in this case. Chaotic nonsense does not come into this. The point is, something can be known true yet still be beyond the logical explanation of it, wouldn't you agree?

Note: if demons exist then it doesn't necessarily prove God like Kingerman says. That is an intellectual calamity, I don't know where it came from.

God still probably exists, but you have to define your terms. Do you mean a personal or impersonal God? The Christian never makes himself clear. In most cases, it's because they know they will be laughed at if it's the invisible man version, but this is DreamViews so I wouldn't even expect that type of believer. They're probably too scared that lucid dreams are from Satan.

So yeah, just define your terms. I think that what we call demons are just beings that used to be men, but they want to torment people through the veil. For whatever reason. Once again, life after death, spirit world, none of this points to God, but it does give some prophets credibility in their predictions.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

God still probably exists, but you have to define your terms. Do you mean a personal or impersonal God? The Christian never makes himself clear. In most cases, it's because they know they will be laughed at if it's the invisible man version, but this is DreamViews so I wouldn't even expect that type of believer. They're probably too scared that lucid dreams are from Satan.

And how did you reach this conclusion? How is it that you place the most faith in an entity with such shaky evidence, especially when the odds of you're being wrong are infinitely enormous?

Originally Posted by Mario92

And how did you reach this conclusion? How is it that you place the most faith in an entity with such shaky evidence, especially when the odds of you're being wrong are infinitely enormous?

Because it depends on how one defines God. If God is anthropomorphic, then certainly there is a 99.9999999999% change that he does not exist. But many people use 'God' simply to the universe and that which trancends. In this instance it's pretty much impossible to deny its existence. If people could just stop using the word 'God' altogether in this context then that would be helpful!

Just to make a point in this thread (I wish I had bothered earlier), I do believe that the paranormal exists, because there are just too many unexplainable testimonies. I am aware they could be having us all on but I just don't believe it. Pretty much everyone knows someone who has had a supernatural encounter of some description.

However, these 'demons' or 'dark spirits' people go on about are not going to be some demonic and disciplined army from the depths of hell as Christians fear; rather, they are lost souls that feed from people like parasites in the physical world, because they are attached to their passions which cannot be quenched in the spirit world/s.

Idolfan, was your second-last post adressing my posts or Kingerman's, or?

Originally Posted by really

Idolfan, was your second-last post adressing my posts or Kingerman's, or?

Do you mean the one in which I didn't provide a quote?

Well, it was just a general statement but it was directed towards the Christian mindset.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Because it depends on how one defines God. If God is anthropomorphic, then certainly there is a 99.9999999999% change that he does not exist. But many people use 'God' simply to the universe and that which trancends. In this instance it's pretty much impossible to deny its existence. If people could just stop using the word 'God' altogether in this context then that would be helpful!

Ah, so you're going with a sort of invisible power behind the universe, guiding and steering it in the right direction, eh?

I DENY THIS POWER'S EXISTENCE!

Originally Posted by Idolfan

However, these 'demons' or 'dark spirits' people go on about are not going to be some demonic and disciplined army from the depths of hell as Christians fear; rather, they are lost souls that feed from people like parasites in the physical world, because they are attached to their passions which cannot be quenched in the spirit world/s.

That part in bold, are you serious? Where did you get that from?

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

That part in bold, are you serious? Where did you get that from?

I meant to say that this was more theoretical; I forgot to add the transition in context.

If the paranormal is real, then people possibly survive after death by slipping into their 'label' (thought) body which their sense of self is attached to. So, of course there will be dark or lost spirits. Do they not exist in this world? Vampires are real. What I described were common ideas from people who study (as best they can) the possible existence of the spirit world, as well as theologians that do not have Hollywood syndrome.

Ps. also consider their supposed rarity. We would know about them if they were common; but there is little to psychic suffering that doesn't have a naturalistic explaination already. Also, Getting from there to here would be like, or literally, interdimensional travel.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I meant to say that this was more theoretical; I forgot to add the transition in context.

If the paranormal is real, then people possibly survive after death by slipping into their 'label' (thought) body which their sense of self is attached to. So, of course there will be dark or lost spirits. Do they not exist in this world? Vampires are real. What I described were common ideas from people who study (as best they can) the possible existence of the spirit world, as well as theologians that do not have Hollywood syndrome.

Ps. also consider their supposed rarity. We would know about them if they were common; but there is little to psychic suffering that doesn't have a naturalistic explaination already. Also, Getting from there to here would be like, or literally, interdimensional travel.

Ah, man, I haven't laughed like that in a while. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Ah, man, I haven't laughed like that in a while. Thank you.

We all know a vampire personally.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

We all know a vampire personally.

OMG no IM TEAM JACOB

*I also want to add, we're talking about lowlife asshole demons here*

Not your exorcist type stuff. At least... I sincerely hope not.

Must bump.

So what are the secular explainations for things like exorcism and demonic possession?

I have seen footage of a few 'spiritual healing' sessions in which people are encouraged to let their demons manifest so that they can be driven out. They act like animals or severely retarded children and it's practically impossible to believe that it's all down to psychological manipulation.

Unfortunately the original videos in this thread will not load for me, but I assume it's more or less the same idea.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Must bump.

So what are the secular explainations for things like exorcism and demonic possession?

I have seen footage of a few 'spiritual healing' sessions in which people are encouraged to let their demons manifest so that they can be driven out. They act like animals or severely retarded children and it's practically impossible to believe that it's all down to psychological manipulation.

Unfortunately the original videos in this thread will not load for me, but I assume it's more or less the same idea.

Oh, you'd be surprised at what the human mind is capable of. If you can truly convince someone that they're possessed, the brain will make it seem to be true.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Oh, you'd be surprised at what the human mind is capable of. If you can truly convince someone that they're possessed, the brain will make it seem to be true.

http://www.spiritualresearchfoundati...les/id/aboutus

This link leads to a video, but to see what I'm talking about you'll have to drop the scroll thingy at the halfway mark. You should see a plane landing. There's even more of it later on in the video. I would not bother with the site though, it seems really suspicious and corny (they believe sexual thoughts are caused by ghosts).

I'm just astounded because how could you 'pretend' to be a demon for half an hour and then come back all like "Woah, I was possessed!" If that's the case then these people must have some serious mental dissociation problems. Seriously, the idea of demons scares the fuck out of me.

Pfft. Demons make me chuckle. I believe in them like I believe in a flying spaghetti monster. Absolutely ridiculous, the constructs of fairy tales.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

http://www.spiritualresearchfoundati...les/id/aboutus

This link leads to a video, but to see what I'm talking about you'll have to drop the scroll thingy at the halfway mark. You should see a plane landing. There's even more of it later on in the video. I would not bother with the site though, it seems really suspicious and corny (they believe sexual thoughts are caused by ghosts).

I'm just astounded because how could you 'pretend' to be a demon for half an hour and then come back all like "Woah, I was possessed!" If that's the case then these people must have some serious mental dissociation problems. Seriously, the idea of demons scares the fuck out of me.

Your fear is the only thing that would give them any power over you.

As for your question above, about the "secular" interpretation of exorcisms...one word: placebo. You could consider a case of demonic possession as simply a severe case of mental illness; the exorcism provides a psychological rope for the person to pull themselves out of whatever mind trap they've created for themselves. Since their symptoms are predicated upon a strong belief in the supernatural, it's not surprising that psychologically they would require a "supernatural" solution to move beyond it. Whether or not other treatments would work as well as an exorcism is dependent on how flexible or inflexible the subject's belief system is.

I'm not a professional or well studied in psychology, but the above seems pretty logical to me.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I have seen footage of a few 'spiritual healing' sessions in which people are encouraged to let their demons manifest so that they can be driven out.

Ha ha.
I hope you aren't serious? Then again what do I know.

Dude, loaf, never post again. Check your post count.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Dude, loaf, never post again. Check your post count.

777? Oh, 778 now. :3

When do you think this thread will get moved to SB? My money's riding on two days if it doesn't fall to the bottom or get locked by then.

Just to try to nudge this back on-topic, to sum up, I do not believe in the paranormal, any evidence for the paranormal is questionable, and the ultimate lack of conclusive proof for the paranormal leads me to believe it is all crock. Discuss.

Originally Posted by Mario92

When do you think this thread will get moved to SB? My money's riding on two days if it doesn't fall to the bottom or get locked by then.

This is an insult!

I don't want to get at you personally, but I will touch on this mindset. Do I have any evidence for the paranormal? Do I fuck, besides testimonies (which should be taken more seriously).

Remember that Charles Darwin couldn't prove his theory! It pisses me off when his most staunch supporters move everything theoretical into the bin and brand it as 'pseudoscience' just because some people fake it.

I find it odd that so many people on DreamViews have no experience of ghosts. Just about everyone knows somone who has a strange story to tell.