Thread: No Evidence of the paranormal?

Evolution has very solid evidence, and has only grown stronger over the years. Evidence for the paranormal has pretty much been stagnating, and we are no closer to proving the existence of demons now than we were two hundred years ago.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I find it odd that so many people on DreamViews have no experience of ghosts. Just about everyone knows somone who has a strange story to tell.

Well i do have quite a bit, I'm sure lots of other people do also.


The reason for not many people coming forward in this thread could be due to fear of scrutiny ,or association with bible thumpers like Kingerman.

I posted something about objects in my house getting moved. No, I'm not clumsy or blind. I actually checked the place it turned up like 3 times thoroughly before it did. I made it quite clear I wasn't convinced it was a ghost, but I still got raped by angry posts.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Must bump.

So what are the secular explainations for things like exorcism and demonic possession?

I have seen footage of a few 'spiritual healing' sessions in which people are encouraged to let their demons manifest so that they can be driven out. They act like animals or severely retarded children and it's practically impossible to believe that it's all down to psychological manipulation.

Unfortunately the original videos in this thread will not load for me, but I assume it's more or less the same idea.

Well "demon" is just an expression. It's a description of a bad spirit, or negative energy. I wouldn't worry about it; (exorcism) cases are extremely rare and I bet they're highly related to health issues, from what I know.

I'll tell you what I think of the so called paranormal entities(referring only to ghosts here).

As you know the human race.. actually everything that is 'living' on this Earth is not perfect. By that i mean that there are flaws in every living organism. Sometimes these flaws are pretty minor, almost invisible and sometimes they are the first thing one can notice.

In the human race for example there are many people that are born with defects(these being inherited or not). The nature also 'tests' us bringing illnesses upon us, so even if we want to be perfect the world just doesn't allow us to be.

But that is just the normal "flow" of the universe/nature.

Now imagine that a human dies, but he has the very rare defect of not being completely able to die properly and a part of him remains here after his death. I think that these leftovers may be the ghosts or the spirits of the dead we speak of.

You see, nothing in this world is perfect, so why would death be perfect?


Well these are my two cents about the ghosts, maybe I'll write what I think about demons and other paranormal 'things' some other time

Originally Posted by Loaf

I posted something about objects in my house getting moved. No, I'm not clumsy or blind. I actually checked the place it turned up like 3 times thoroughly before it did. I made it quite clear I wasn't convinced it was a ghost, but I still got raped by angry posts.

You see, this kind of shit has NO EXPLAINATION!

And most secular people simply dismiss stuff like this as a lie. It's about time we started actually investigating it seriously.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

You see, this kind of shit has NO EXPLAINATION!

And most secular people simply dismiss stuff like this as a lie. It's about time we started actually investigating it seriously.

Yes it has loads of explanations. Self-delusion. If he want's to prove it to us secularists then take a video. Surprise surprise, the video will not show any moving objects. If it does, then congratulation on your 1.000.000$ Randi or Nobel prize.

thick heads need proof, loaf has no interest in prooving it to secularists. This is a debate of ideas, thinking, and sharing ideas, not ""prooving"" things to thick heads.

The thing is this:

What is the best way to get to knowledge? Speculation? Wishful thinking? I think everybody agrees that this is not the way. Furthermore, I would say with almost 100% certainty that we can all agree that science really is the best way to get from ignorance to knowledge.

In short, it goes something like this:
Something is the case, you ask yourself what could cause this, you make up a hypothesis, and through rigorous testing, ideally by creating experiments that only variate the variables that you want to test, you either dismiss or validate the hypothesis. Then the experiment gets checked for possible errors, possible mistakes, and possible chinks that might have slipped past you. After the experiment passes this phase, your experiment gets recreated, and hopefully verified by other scientists. And only after this grueling process you can call your hypothesis, because of inherent philosophical and epistemological problems "probably correct".

This method guarantees the most statistically valid and verified theories. If anyone thinks that this one is way inferior to speculation, wishful thinking, or just the plain acceptance of a mythology without anything to back it up, I'd say: make your case ^^. Curious as to what you'd bring forward


The problem is that paranormal activity is not science. It's speculation, it's almost appears to be wishful thinking. They're nice little hypotheses that people seem to dream up in order to explain those things that they can't explain otherwise.

For example: the moving chairs or noisy furniture. What I tend to see in most paranormal. It must be ghosts or DEMONS, right? How else could they move, or how else could they get so noisy?
To a scientist, this is almost like saying "Well, obviously fairies drag you down, because how else can you explain gravity?" I'm sure all the paranormal believers in this place can agree that this is a non-valid theory.
In fact: it's the classical "argument from ignorance". So (and this is a genuine question): why believe in ghosts, but not in fairies?


The solution to end this problem, obviously, is experimenting. It's the testing of the hypotheses. It's the scientific method. In other words: unbiased, objective studies and experiments.


The thing why videos, pictures and religious/spiritual experiences and anecdotes generally are not accepted as evidence, is the fact that these can be easily faked, the fact that humans are fallible (hallucinations, optical illusions, pareidolia) and sometimes even self deceiving (the mythology of ghosts and hauntings can be enough for people to see and hear things they normally wouldn't classify as hauntings and ghosts, in other words: things aren't objective anymore, but are clad in a subjective light, a supernatural interpretation is superimposed on the facts). This is exactly the reason why few people seem to have experienced ghosts: the rest of us simply do not buy into the mythology of ghosts, and attribute the phenomena to the (up tol now) proven and tested psychological phenomena.

Spiritual possession, for example, when viewed by the symptoms alone, simply seem to be schizophrenia, mania, Tourette's syndrome, or some other psychological disorders. The fact that these are clad in a spiritual way only seem to affect why people view it as spiritual possession. In the same vein, exorcisms seem to work through the same mythology, through suggestion and placebo.


I'm gonna stop here for now. Replies are welcome, of course

Have a great day, everyone ^^

-Tim

that's what they say yes.

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

that's what they say yes.

I have no idea what you just meant by that XD

Originally Posted by CryoDragoon

I have no idea what you just meant by that XD

XD ok ok, I meant that's one side of the people "scientists" say. I don't give a damn what they have to say about spirituality .... still , maybe in the future I will. Some people just know it's true and if scientists says that we or other people are delisional, I understand that , it's what they believe , but that doesn't affect us at all, if they define us as crazy or not I don't care

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

XD ok ok, I meant that's one side of the people "scientists" say. I don't give a damn what they have to say about spirituality .... still , maybe in the future I will. Some people just know it's true and if scientists says that we or other people are delisional, I understand that , it's what they believe , but that doesn't affect us at all, if they define us as crazy or not I don't care

Well... That's nice... The only problem is that as soon as one party has closed itself off and suddenly "doesn't give a damn" anymore about what the other party says, then all possibility in civil conversation has ended...

It does beg the question, though: Why? Why close yourself off? How exactly is it productive? Indeed, how is it productive for you?

Again, those people who "just know it's true": HOW do they know? Again, what is the ONLY way to know something for (more or less) sure? Is it to experience something and somehow project a hypothesis, mythology or belief on top of it? Is it by self-deluding yourself? Or is it through science?

Only idiots would call you folks crazy . For the rest of us, you're just someone with a different opinion . Who knows... Maybe you are right. We won't judge about that. Maybe fairies DO drag us down to the ground as well, but how do we know for sure (more or less)? You already know the answer.

I close my self off from debating with them , because I know what I want , and debating about it's validity or proof or etc etc etc won't benefit me in anything at most getting angry with someone I may consider thick headed.

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

I close my self off from debating with them , because I know what I want , and debating about it's validity or proof or etc etc etc won't benefit me in anything at most getting angry with someone I may consider thick headed.

This is probably one of the most hillarious things I have ever seen someone say.

That was not serious, was it..?

Edit; Seriously.. I'm having trouble telling if you were joking or not.

~

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

I meant that's one side of the people "scientists" say. I don't give a damn what they have to say about spirituality

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

Some people just know it's true

I'm frowning.

Heavily.

Originally Posted by O'nus

This is probably one of the most hillarious things I have ever seen someone say.

That was not serious, was it..?

Edit; Seriously.. I'm having trouble telling if you were joking or not.

~

haha, nopes it's not a joke and I don't have problems admiting it because my ego isn't that big heh.

Originally Posted by O'nus

This is probably one of the most hillarious things I have ever seen someone say.

That was not serious, was it..?

Edit; Seriously.. I'm having trouble telling if you were joking or not.

~

it's not that unusual, he's just getting straight to the point.

Alot of people hold the same views as him but disguise it in frilly language. If you get to the core of most people's religious or spiritual belief it does end up being pretty much what he has phrased here so beautifully and clear.

Sadly.

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

haha, nopes it's not a joke and I don't have problems admiting it because my ego isn't that big heh.

You said you'd get angry at people's 'thick headedness'

in the same paragraph you said you close yourself off to debate and only believe what you want



can you understand the problem here?

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

You said you'd get angry at people's 'thick headedness'

in the same paragraph you said you close yourself off to debate and only believe what you want



can you understand the problem here?

it's not a problem , but yes I understand what you mean. That's because I'm not tolerant enough yet, but that's not so easy to change, it takes time to change those aspects deep inside.

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

it's not a problem , but yes I understand what you mean. That's because I'm not tolerant enough yet, but that's not so easy to change, it takes time to change those aspects deep inside.

Very true.

Maybe until you feel that, refrain from considering other people thick-headed, when to consider such from your position is to be the most thick-headed of all.

Originally Posted by CryoDragoon

The thing is this:

What is the best way to get to knowledge? Speculation? Wishful thinking? I think everybody agrees that this is not the way. Furthermore, I would say with almost 100% certainty that we can all agree that science really is the best way to get from ignorance to knowledge.

In short, it goes something like this:
Something is the case, you ask yourself what could cause this, you make up a hypothesis, and through rigorous testing, ideally by creating experiments that only variate the variables that you want to test, you either dismiss or validate the hypothesis. Then the experiment gets checked for possible errors, possible mistakes, and possible chinks that might have slipped past you. After the experiment passes this phase, your experiment gets recreated, and hopefully verified by other scientists. And only after this grueling process you can call your hypothesis, because of inherent philosophical and epistemological problems "probably correct".

This method guarantees the most statistically valid and verified theories. If anyone thinks that this one is way inferior to speculation, wishful thinking, or just the plain acceptance of a mythology without anything to back it up, I'd say: make your case ^^. Curious as to what you'd bring forward


The problem is that paranormal activity is not science. It's speculation, it's almost appears to be wishful thinking. They're nice little hypotheses that people seem to dream up in order to explain those things that they can't explain otherwise.

For example: the moving chairs or noisy furniture. What I tend to see in most paranormal. It must be ghosts or DEMONS, right? How else could they move, or how else could they get so noisy?
To a scientist, this is almost like saying "Well, obviously fairies drag you down, because how else can you explain gravity?" I'm sure all the paranormal believers in this place can agree that this is a non-valid theory.
In fact: it's the classical "argument from ignorance". So (and this is a genuine question): why believe in ghosts, but not in fairies?


The solution to end this problem, obviously, is experimenting. It's the testing of the hypotheses. It's the scientific method. In other words: unbiased, objective studies and experiments.


The thing why videos, pictures and religious/spiritual experiences and anecdotes generally are not accepted as evidence, is the fact that these can be easily faked, the fact that humans are fallible (hallucinations, optical illusions, pareidolia) and sometimes even self deceiving (the mythology of ghosts and hauntings can be enough for people to see and hear things they normally wouldn't classify as hauntings and ghosts, in other words: things aren't objective anymore, but are clad in a subjective light, a supernatural interpretation is superimposed on the facts). This is exactly the reason why few people seem to have experienced ghosts: the rest of us simply do not buy into the mythology of ghosts, and attribute the phenomena to the (up tol now) proven and tested psychological phenomena.

Spiritual possession, for example, when viewed by the symptoms alone, simply seem to be schizophrenia, mania, Tourette's syndrome, or some other psychological disorders. The fact that these are clad in a spiritual way only seem to affect why people view it as spiritual possession. In the same vein, exorcisms seem to work through the same mythology, through suggestion and placebo.


I'm gonna stop here for now. Replies are welcome, of course

Have a great day, everyone ^^

-Tim

Post of The Day [POTD]

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Very true.

Maybe until you feel that, refrain from considering other people thick-headed, when to consider such from your position is to be the most thick-headed of all.

I never said I wasn't thick-headed, I am , but not that much when I compare myself with other people in general.

Originally Posted by mowglycdb

I never said I wasn't thick-headed, I am , but not that much when I compare myself with other people in general.

Better not to compare yourself or flaws with others like it's a scale or competition. Try and kinda, i guess, see further. Bright, yknow?