Thread: Origins

Originally Posted by Noogah

You have no idea how much work it takes to respond to all that you see above your post.

I addition to this, after I am finished with my holes thread, I believe I will be leaving R/S for good. I can't meet the demands of this place. It's a responsibility that is simply to great for me to hold much longer with my schedule, and general health (lol).

You never actually replied - you just defended yourself.

Hopefully your holes thread is not full of things that try to exploit and mis-represent evolution.

You must realize what your aiming to do is not done even by professionals - there are no scientific holes in evolution. You can mis-represent and downplay anything. Sometimes, that is the only way people will believe something.

~

Originally Posted by Noogah

I addition to this, after I am finished with my holes thread, I believe I will be leaving R/S for good. I can't meet the demands of this place. It's a responsibility that is simply to great for me to hold much longer with my schedule, and general health (lol).

Don't go Noogah.

You used to drive me absolutley nuts. But over time i've become quite fond of you, and like to think upon you kindly as the R/S forum's very own village moon calf.

You make our days a little odder with your strange and insane beliefs, for which I thank you, for without a little weirdness in our lives we might just sleepwalk through our days and indeed nights. One of my most reliable routes to lucidness is to perform an RC whenever anything odd happens - and you are most decidedly and deliciously odd.

Finish your holes thread and then to battle! ........by holes do you mean arguments againt Evolution or a "special" thread about secret moist girl places? Dont you just love the word "moist"? Isnt it wonderfully dirty?

Khabs Am Pekht frater Noogah.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Hence



You have no idea how much work it takes to respond to all that you see above your post.

I addition to this, after I am finished with my holes thread, I believe I will be leaving R/S for good. I can't meet the demands of this place. It's a responsibility that is simply to great for me to hold much longer with my schedule, and general health (lol).

That's not a good excuse. My challenge is very simple and the post short.

If evolution is full of holes as you claim, it should be extremely easy to explain how evolution could not happen.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I addition to this, after I am finished with my holes thread, I believe I will be leaving R/S for good.

If there is the same degree of truth in this statement as there was the last time you made a promise of 'getting around to watching a video', you won't last 2 days away from here.

Quit being a hypocrite and just answer the questions asked of you.

Originally Posted by O'nus

You never actually replied - you just defended yourself.

What else did you give me to work with here? I gave plenty of scientific answers to your claims. You just hated the fact that most of the material had come from Answers In Genesis, and so therefore you dismissed it as nonsense.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

Quit being a hypocrite and just answer the questions asked of you.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

That's not a good excuse. My challenge is very simple and the post short.

I'm not fooling around guys. This isn't an excuse. I'm really going to leave for the reasons I stated.

Originally Posted by Evildoctor

You used to drive me absolutley nuts. But over time i've become quite fond of you, and like to think upon you kindly as the R/S forum's very own village moon calf.

Thanks for reminding me of another reason I don't want to be around this place anymore.

I'm also completely serious about the Holes in Evolution thread. I am actively writing it.

...what, the endless source of entertainment is leaving? Damn. So many insults I never got to hurl...

Originally Posted by Noogah

Thanks for reminding me of another reason I don't want to be around this place anymore.

I think he really meant it.. and I second it.

I hope you see the positive in it.

~

Noogah, don't chicken out like that. Do your best to answer this before you run away...

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
Noogah, here's a quick challenge for you:

A few facts:
- Species pass down their DNA to the progeny;
- Selective pressures exist in nature, resulting in the fittest being more likely to survive and pass their DNA;
- DNA mixes and mutates;
- Species continue on surviving and reproducing for thousands of years or more (life on Earth as a whole is at least billions of years old).

Now, are you able to provide an explanation as to how evolution can possibly NOT happen under these factual circumstances?

On behalf of creationists everywhere, please answer that. I am really curious to know what could possibly be argued there. Call your preacher for an answer if you want to. Scatterbrain asked the multi-billion dollar question, and you are backing down. Stand back up for a second and educate everybody on the key issue.

I second, third, fourth and fifth this. I think I speak on behalf of most of us here when I say that I sincerely want to see you respond to Scatterbrain's challenge.

Originally Posted by Catbus

I second, third, fourth and fifth this. I think I speak on behalf of most of us here when I say that I sincerely want to see you respond to Scatterbrain's challenge.

yes

Originally Posted by Noogah

I addition to this, after I am finished with my holes thread, I believe I will be leaving R/S for good. I can't meet the demands of this place. It's a responsibility that is simply to great for me to hold much longer with my schedule, and general health (lol).

It is probably good that you take some time to yourself to meditate on what you really believe and why. I will honestly be looking forward to your response to the question when you return.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

oogah, don't chicken out like that. Do your best to answer this before you run away...

Apparently you didn't read this. Scroll down; it's there.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

It is probably good that you take some time to yourself to meditate on what you really believe and why. I will honestly be looking forward to your response to the question when you return.

You know - I am not entirely certain you understood my reasons for leaving.

I will restate:

It is too demanding.

This has nothing to do with revaluating my beliefs; God proved himself to me a long time ago. I'm afraid it's to late to tell me he is not real as he has shown himself to be otherwise. .

Also, was I quite clear on the fact that I intend on leaving for good?

I am not running away.

I am not unable to answer you.

I am not afraid.

I am not unsure of what I believe.

I am not sure how much clearer I can be.

I can't stick around, because it is simply too much of a task for me to devote my time to. I have valuable projects that I wish to pick up.

Originally Posted by acatalephobic

This is why it's problematic when religious people try to argue on scientific terms, because it's absolutely self defeating. Religious belief, for me, shouldn't be talked about or viewed in this method of causation, fact etc, as it has become in most cases, because then it stops being religion, it becomes science. And it's bad science, as Noogah and O'nus show us. And then there seems to be no value left to it, another rejected scientific proposal, this one concerning the idea of a god.

Yes. It is unfortunate that many of the world religions incorporate faulty observations
(or may be beneficial in that they demonstrate that the maker of said religion or its
texts is a fraud). Religion would be better off sticking to the merits of human growth
and expansion of one's experiences, or, for the most part, philosophical thinking. They
must however also incorporate the idea that there is a higher power of some sort(s),
so where one ought to draw the line isn't precisely clear.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I am not unsure of what I believe.

That is a part of the problem. You have to acknowledge that you are opting to
close yourself off from other verifiable truths, and that prevents you from
looking at the facts with a level, unbiased state of mind. It has been stated
already that the scientific process always allows for some falsifiability and
therefor does not lead people into this pitfall. The way evolution works, so far
as we have discovered, is as correct as it can be.

2.Never has a genetic mutation occurred that was known to make an animal work better -if anything, it dies, or suffered.

Like the bacteria that develop resistances to antibiotics through genetic
mutation, the same example that's been used more than once in this thread.
They pass on the successful new genes while the others without the gene
perish. Evolution in action. We also explained how this occurs on the
multicellular level. Billions of years is too long a time for any person to truly
understand and appreciate. It is a slow process, yes, and even that is illustrated by what you said in the following:

Genetic mutations happen alot, but they rarely do anything. When they do, it's usually bad.

You just acknowledged, plain as day, that "when they do happen" (as in, genetic mutations have an observable impact on an organism's performance), it is "usually bad" (in that it is also sometimes beneficial).

I'm afraid it's to late to tell me he is not real as he has shown himself to be otherwise.

For the sake of understanding where you're coming from, can you elaborate on this?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Apparently you didn't read this. Scroll down; it's there.



You know - I am not entirely certain you understood my reasons for leaving.

I will restate:

It is too demanding.

This has nothing to do with revaluating my beliefs; God proved himself to me a long time ago. I'm afraid it's to late to tell me he is not real as he has shown himself to be otherwise. .

Also, was I quite clear on the fact that I intend on leaving for good?

I am not running away.

I am not unable to answer you.

I am not afraid.

I am not unsure of what I believe.

I am not sure how much clearer I can be.

I can't stick around, because it is simply too much of a task for me to devote my time to. I have valuable projects that I wish to pick up.

Most of this is people trying to convince you that it's more reasonable to believe in evolution than creation.

That doesn't neccessarily mean throwing out God.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Apparently you didn't read this. Scroll down; it's there.

And apparently you didn't read this:

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

1. I didn't say anything about mutations killing animals. Even though it does happen, it's irrelevant to my point which was that certain mutations help a specimen survive.

2. Again you display how far your ignorance goes. In this very thread there have been shown examples of mutations helping survival.

3. The age of the earth is not debatable, this has been showed to you several times but you keep ignoring it. The fact is that there are many, completely unrelated possible dating methods, and they all come back to the same result.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

Your whole post is untrue. My challenge stands.

Leave him alone.
Can't you see you're killing him?
LEAVE NOOGAH ALONE!








Also, I just elucidated on my statement about First Causes over here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=91315

Originally Posted by Noogah

Apparently you didn't read this. Scroll down; it's there.



You know - I am not entirely certain you understood my reasons for leaving.

I will restate:

It is too demanding.

This has nothing to do with revaluating my beliefs; God proved himself to me a long time ago. I'm afraid it's to late to tell me he is not real as he has shown himself to be otherwise. .

Also, was I quite clear on the fact that I intend on leaving for good?

I am not running away.

I am not unable to answer you.

I am not afraid.

I am not unsure of what I believe.

I am not sure how much clearer I can be.

I can't stick around, because it is simply too much of a task for me to devote my time to. I have valuable projects that I wish to pick up.

What you say and what you do are not exactly in accordance with each other, and everyone comes back. A common symptom of a shaky belief system is the amount of time and effort to explain clearly what you believe goes up and up proportionate to how many questions you try to answer with it.

A very solid belief system will allow you to answer many different questions with the same information. A somewhat solid belief system will allow you to answer each question once in one way. As you have to start explaining yourself more than one way for the same or similar questions, it becomes clear that either your understanding of the beliefs is not fully developed, or that the beliefs themselves do not have a stable foundation.

When it gets to the point that it is too much effort to express what you really feel, or that you are incapable of conveying your beliefs in a way that they will be understood, it is time to step back and ask yourself, "what is it that I believe?" and "why do I believe this?"

Reevaluating your beliefs is not a negative thing. It is something that you should aspire to do constantly on some level. When you can't (and a refusal is a de facto admittance that you cannot) express yourself clearly so that others would at least understand why you might honestly arrive at the conclusions that you have then you should be doing a vigorous reevaluating of what you believe, why you think it makes sense, and how to explain it to the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by O'nus

That is a part of the problem. You have to acknowledge that you are opting to
close yourself off from other verifiable truths, and that prevents you from
looking at the facts with a level, unbiased state of mind.

It's natural that you would say this, O'nus, seeing that Evolution can indeed be disproven as you have said. However, I have infallible reasons for what I believe, and at this point, nothing can change that. It's more than a belief now. I can't "prove" the existence of my sister to you, but no one will ever disprove her existence to me, nor can they. Even if she suddenly disappears, I will know that she existed.

Originally Posted by O'nus

They pass on the successful new genes while the others without the gene
perish.

And at the same time, cripple it.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Billions of years is too long a time for any person to truly
understand and appreciate. It is a slow process, yes

Evolution says that LIFE has only been around seven hundred million years. the earth has apparently been around for four billion, and the universe always gets older, but right now, it's about thirteen billion.

If life were that young, then there would have to be well over a thousand POSITIVE genetic mutations each years, which is hundreds per day. Unrealistic to the core.

Originally Posted by O'nus

For the sake of understanding where you're coming from, can you elaborate on this?

In the same way that you understand someone is right next to you even with your eyes closed. You can feel them, and even more importantly, speak to them, and they will speak in reply.

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 1:18; KJV

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Doubtless that anything I say about knowing God intimately will make a shred of sense to you, but I can't help that. The purpose of being a Christian is not Heaven vs. Hell (Although, that is a part of it.) The prupose is to know God. Not know OF him, actually knowing him. Once you do, you also realize that he exists.

Originally Posted by Carousoul

Most of this is people trying to convince you that it's more reasonable to believe in evolution than creation.

That doesn't neccessarily mean throwing out God.

Well, no. But,

1.If religion had nothing to do with it, they probably couldn't care less.

2. I think the Bible makes it pretty clear cut about what happened. If your going to be a literal Bible believer, then that's something you'll have a hard time explaining if you also wish to believe in Evolution.

3.I think Evolution is scientifically preposterous.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

And apparently you didn't read this:

Okay...I assume you disliked my response. I'm sorry, but that's my response, and I had to read your challenge in order to respond to it, so....

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

A common symptom of a shaky belief system is the amount of time and effort to explain clearly what you believe goes up and up proportionate to how many questions you try to answer with it.

So...your saying that because it take me forever to respond to all of this...it means my briefs are shaky? I have to disagree.

Let's fix what you said.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

A common symptom of a shaky belief system having a boatload of people to reply to is the amount of time and effort to explain clearly what you believe goes up and up proportionate to how many questions you try to answer with it.

There we go.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

A very solid belief system will allow you to answer many different questions with the same information.

Right...and that's usually what I do.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

When it gets to the point that it is too much effort to express what you really feel, or that you are incapable of conveying your beliefs in a way that they will be understood, it is time to step back and ask yourself

Let me try AGAIN:

I don't have ENOUGH TIME to deal with everything going on here. I should like to put my time TO BETTER USE.

This has NOTHING to do with my capabilities.

Nothing.

I have explained myself time and time again. I don't wish to keep doing so. How long do you want me to stick around explaining Christianity to people? I'm done. I'm getting sick of it. No one listens anyways, it's wasting my time, and frankly, I have a lot of better things I believe I could eomploy my time with.


My holes post will be finished tomorrow, and I retire.

If anyone can manage a farewell, now would be the time.

Noogah, I don't know where you got the 700 million figure, but it is way off. Life goes back at least 3.5 billion years. I also don't know how you could have calculated the thing about hundreds of mutations a day.

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/l...ns_001205.html

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I am also curious about where you got the idea that no mutations are advantageous and all are harmful. Where did you get it?

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html

It's natural that you would say this, O'nus, seeing that Evolution can indeed be disproven as you have said. However, I have infallible reasons for what I believe, and at this point, nothing can change that. It's more than a belief now. I can't "prove" the existence of my sister to you, but no one will ever disprove her existence to me, nor can they. Even if she suddenly disappears, I will know that she existed.

Noogah, that's just the problem: your reasons, to you, are infallible; they cannot be proven wrong. The dangerous thing is that you choose to believe them rather blindly with extremely little evidence. Evolution is fallible, it can be proven wrong. But, because your beliefs are infallible, you remain close-minded and fully incapable of considering any other possibilities. You have stunted your mental growth and development, sad to say. With luck, you will grow out of this, but somehow, I doubt this.

And at the same time, cripple it.

If it crippled the organsim, we'd have a cure for HIV right now.

Noogah, I don't know where you got the 700 million figure, but it is way off. Life goes back at least 3.5 billion years. I also don't know how you could have calculated the thing about hundreds of mutations a day.

My bad.

Do the math.

Average adult had seventy trillion cells; if one genetic mutation could bring about ONE more cell (doubtful) ...

70000000000000 divided by 70000000000000 3500000000 is 20000. 20000 divided by 365 is 54. So, if life is 3.5 billion years old, it would have to pump out creatures at twenty thousand beneficial mutations each year, which is over fifty a day. Less than a hundred, but still quite a bit compared to the actually rate.

Originally Posted by Mario92

The dangerous thing is that you choose to believe them rather blindly with extremely little evidence

Actually, I have every bit of reason to believe in God's existence. Actually, there is no reason for me not too. He is there, and I know that.

Originally Posted by Mario92

With luck, you will grow out of this, but somehow, I doubt this.

...Mario, when you cease to believe that your physical father ever existed, I will "grow out" of my belief in God.

He is there, and I know that. You can't tell me something isn't there when I clearly see that it is.

If it crippled the organsim, we'd have a cure for HIV right now.

I didn't say that it fully disabled the organism, but whilst improving it, it also did harm to it.

Originally Posted by Noogah

My bad.

Do the math.

Average adult had seventy trillion cells; if one genetic mutation could bring about ONE more cell (doubtful) ...

70000000000000 divided by 70000000000000 3500000000 is 20000. 20000 divided by 365 is 54. So, if life is 3.5 billion years old, it would have to pump out creatures at twenty thousand beneficial mutations each year, which is over fifty a day. Less than a hundred, but still quite a bit compared to the actually rate.

Uh...what the fuck? Dude, your idea of evolution is so far off...

Originally Posted by Mario92

Dude, your idea of evolution is so far off...

Regardless;

What I said is true.

Twenty thousand beneficial mutations would be necessary to create an organism with over seventy trillion cells.

I realize, one mutation =/= one cell, but it is still a fair number.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Regardless;

What I said is true.

Twenty thousand beneficial mutations would be necessary to create an organism with over seventy trillion cells.

I realize, one mutation =/= one cell, but it is still a fair number.

Now, listen: once you have a single TYPE of cell, that one cell quickly becomes many. The average person does not have seventy trillion TYPES of cells in the body, and many of the cells are rather similar in structure, and all operate on the same system of "rules." Exactly WHAT each cell does varies, but get this: every cell in your body has the exact same genetic code (give or take a few cells for mutations).

Once life developed, say, skin cells, that basic structure STUCK AROUND. You do NOT need to mutate every single cell to create a new life form. Where are you getting your facts?