Thread: The Change I Want To See In The World

I think that the attitude of "I don't care what you think" is a commendable one when applied to certain judgements. Consider the following for instance:

Homosexuality is repulsive

You're not attractive if you don't wear makeup

In these cases where there is no compelling reason to accept them, or they're completely subjective statements then "I don't care" has some merit.

The problem occurs when this attitude is applied to arguments that involve reasons or evidence. For example:

The Earth is approximately spherical

Murder is wrong

The first is a statement of fact. To ignore it would be ignoring reality, a nonsensical position.

The second one isn't an objective fact as such - wrong is a moral judgement - but one can use reasoning and argument to reach this position. It can be based on sound principles which others can agree with, and so "I don't care" is not a good position to take here.

I can persuade you that the Earth is in fact roughly spherical, or that murder has negative consequences. I can't persuade you on what you perceive as attractive or repulsive.

The idea that one should carry on disregarding criticisms and conflicting view points is the foundation of self-righteousness. This social attitude has been cultivated by superstitious people, often religious, as a defense mechanism. The defense works by asserting that one's belief requires no defense and simply ignoring any criticism of it or evidence against it. It is intellectual evasion.

In all other areas of life, you are expected to have reasons to explain why you've done something or why you believe something. "I am confident in my belief" is not a reason for having a belief. It's not a reason for anything. This attitude of "confidence" in one's superstitions is not invoked when someone feels they don't have to defend their belief, but rather when they are unable and don't want to because they have no rational defense. This is not confidence. This is dishonesty and cowardice. The truth is there may be someone with more insight than you who you would benefit from listening to. The notion that you should not consider what others think of your beliefs is presumptuous at best.

You make the assumption that everything needs a reason. I disagree to that.

My belief is based on infinity, and infinity does not need a reason.

Infinity is everything. It's me, it's you, it's my thoughts and your thoughts. In the end everything is just the same thing. Life and death does not exist. When we "die" we remain a part of infinity. There is no begin and there is no end to infinity. It doesn't matter what we "do" or not "do". It's all "pointless" in the end.

What "you" know as your consciousness doesn't exist. It's all just a part of infinity.

Reasons are irrelevant to my belief.

If your confidence in your beliefs is well placed, you should have no trouble defending them.

Read above. There is no point in doing so.

However, if someone asks me to explain myself, I'll glady do so (although, there is no real reason to do that either).

Originally Posted by XeL

My belief is based on infinity, and infinity does not need a reason.

Reasons are irrelevant to my belief.

How convenient.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

How convenient.

I know. That's exactly why infinity is so wonderful. It makes perfect sense no matter how much you twist it.

Can you twist infinity? I don't think you could ever grab an edge.

This is not what I expected to read when I saw that Mark had created a thread called, "The Change I Want To See In The World". Yet I'm confident in my beliefs that this is still a supah coo' thread.

Next time, though, try to meet my expectations!

I'm sorry but, were human beings not robots. Emotions and intuition will always effect our wordly beliefs. I believe in love, and I don't have to give an argument to anyone why I believe so. That's just my right as a human being.

I believe the Earth is kind of apple shaped or like a fat bagel. That is, if you believe that the electro-magnetic field is part of the Earth, which, it is.

Originally Posted by juroara

I'm sorry but, were human beings not robots. Emotions and intuition will always effect our wordly beliefs. I believe in love, and I don't have to give an argument to anyone why I believe so. That's just my right as a human being.

You can believe whatever you want to, but if it makes no sense and is unprovable, good look finding supporters. Furthermore, if it conflicts with the views of others, expect opposition.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

I think that the attitude of "I don't care what you think" is a commendable one when applied to certain judgements. Consider the following for instance:

In these cases where there is no compelling reason to accept them, or they're completely subjective statements then "I don't care" has some merit.

True enough. But even subjective beliefs aren't just totally random. They're still based on some personal preference and it's not as though other people can't make you realize truths about yourself that even you didn't know. Tastes can and do change and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Originally Posted by XeL

My belief is based on infinity, and infinity does not need a reason.

Infinity is everything. It's me, it's you, it's my thoughts and your thoughts. In the end everything is just the same thing.

Let me get this straight. Infinity is everything. Infinity does not need a reason, and as a part of that, neither do you. Also you think everything is pointless. So aside from that, do you believe anything at all? If so, by what standard do you hold any one belief over another? Why in light of the pointlessness of it all would you bother to hold anything to any standard (since in the end, everything is just the same thing)?

Originally Posted by Moose

This is not what I expected to read when I saw that Mark had created a thread called, "The Change I Want To See In The World". Yet I'm confident in my beliefs that this is still a supah coo' thread.

Next time, though, try to meet my expectations!

Sorry. What were you expecting?

Originally Posted by juroara

I'm sorry but, were human beings not robots. Emotions and intuition will always effect our wordly beliefs. I believe in love, and I don't have to give an argument to anyone why I believe so. That's just my right as a human being.

What do you mean you believe in love? You believe that it exists? I don't think many people would say that that cannot be demonstrated, or that there is no reason to believe that it does. Of course emotions affect our beliefs. If you believe something is good because doing that something makes you happy, this is a logical belief. Happiness itself isn't rational, but this belief about it is.

It is your right as a human being to believe whatever you want, I agree. It's likewise my right to believe that sacrificing kittens is the only way to stabilize the economy, but I bet you'd have some questions about that one. And it is your right to ask them. It is your right to expect people to have reasons for the things they believe. The things they believe directly influence the things they do and in a global society, the things they do can affect you. The truth of the matter is we can't afford to just ignore everyone else.

Let me get this straight. Infinity is everything. Infinity does not need a reason, and as a part of that, neither do you. Also you think everything is pointless. So aside from that, do you believe anything at all? If so, by what standard do you hold any one belief over another? Why in light of the pointlessness of it all would you bother to hold anything to any standard (since in the end, everything is just the same thing)?

The thing is. In my belief there is no "I". That makes it impossible for me to believe anything (because anything I choose to believe in is the same thing). My "thoughts" are infinity, just like everything else. What I "do", don't "do" and "think" doesn't matter, because it's the same thing.

What I'm typing here is a part of infintity, not my consciousness talking.

So, XeL; logically, one would have to assume that you don't think that (even in this modern/'civilized' age) people should be held accountable for their beliefs, and how their beliefs affect others?

I mean, people are killed/raped/abused/neglected/etc, over the irrational beliefs of others. You're saying that your disposition to that basically amounts to "so what?"

Your line of thought seems to be a popular one, but I don't think it holds up, under scrutiny.

People erroneously try to apply such a broad perspective of "everything is infinity" and "earth is insignificant, in the cosmic scheme" to such microcosms as everyday, human interaction. Living in society just doesn't work that way. There are immediate consequences for thoughts and actions. If there is anything in this universe that does "matter", it's how you treat other people - whether they be friends, family or strangers.

If you're in a grocery store with your infant - and you turn away from the cart to grab a steak off the rack - what do think about 'infinity', if someone comes along and snatches your child? Is it "oop. Oh well. Good thing we are all apart of infinity. Otherwise I might actually care that my child was just kidnapped"? Since we are all 'a part of infinity', do you view someone stealing your child as if you stole your own child? Exactly how does that work?

No offense, but I think the whole "it doesn't matter because of 'infinity/nihilism/etc' is a cop-out. It is a way to justify to oneself one's unwillingness to recognize any societal norms and mutual respects - though completely without foundation. In the end, though, it doesn't hold up, because when peoples' beliefs do affect you in some way, it becomes very real.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

So, XeL; logically, one would have to assume that you don't think that (even in this modern/'civilized' age) people should be held accountable for their beliefs, and how their beliefs affect others?

Since I believe we're all the same thing, there is no such term as "people" in my belief.

I mean, people are killed/raped/abused/neglected/etc, over the irrational beliefs of others. You're saying that your disposition to that basically amounts to "so what?"

Yes. Since a murder is the same thing as a hug.

People erroneously try to apply such a broad perspective of "everything is infinity" and "earth is insignificant, in the cosmic scheme" to such microcosms as everyday, human interaction. Living in society just doesn't work that way. There are immediate consequences for thoughts and actions. If there is anything in this universe that does "matter", it's how you treat other people - whether they be friends, family or strangers.

Every thought and action is infinity. I don't believe in such a thing as a consciousness. You are the same thing as my thoughts, for instance.

If you're in a grocery store with your infant - and you turn away from the cart to grab a steak off the rack - what do think about 'infinity', if someone comes along and snatches your child? Is it "oop. Oh well. Good thing we are all apart of infinity. Otherwise I might actually care that my child was just kidnapped"? Since we are all 'a part of infinity', do you view someone stealing your child as if you stole your own child? Exactly how does that work?

I would get sad and devastated. But since there is no I in infinity, it doesn't matter. What I "feel" is merely a reflection of infinity, nothing else.

No offense, but I think the whole "it doesn't matter because of 'infinity/nihilism/etc' is a cop-out. It is a way to justify to oneself one's unwillingness to recognize any societal norms and mutual respects - though completely without foundation. In the end, though, it doesn't hold up, because when peoples' beliefs do affect you in some way, it because very real.

If we make the assumption that everything is the same thing (which is the assumption that I make), beliefs don't matter.

Dude you just lost all credibility.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

You can believe whatever you want to, but if it makes no sense and is unprovable, good luck finding supporters. Furthermore, if it conflicts with the views of others, expect opposition.

Lol, funny, because this idea of how beliefs should work creates religious wars....

Truth found in a belief seeks not to prove itself, because by simply being, it has already done so.

Only a fool cares to convert or cares if others oppose his beliefs, and the wise man knows tolerance will leave the lies in the past and the truth will remain through eternity.

My interpretation of this thread is: "Everyone should let me influence their beliefs"

I cannot speak for everyone, but there are some people who do not need to justify their every belief to other people. Obviously, if I want you to believe something I believe I should justify it to you, but if I don't care whether you adopt my beliefs or let them influence you in any way, what benefit is there in bringing forth explanations? Those that are trying to convince others are the ones who need to explain, reason, and justify those things that they would say.

If I am trying to influence someone, I explain, reason, and justify. If I am not trying to exert influence then my beliefs are my own and I need not do anything to help you understand them. If you have a desire to understand them, however; you are free to inquire, although I am still free to deny you.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Dude you just lost all credibility.

Feel free to elaborate.

Originally Posted by XeL

But since there is no I in infinity, it doesn't matter. What I "feel" is merely a reflection of infinity, nothing else.

There are three I's in infinity.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

So, XeL; logically, one would have to assume that you don't think that (even in this modern/'civilized' age) people should be held accountable for their beliefs, and how their beliefs affect others?

I mean, people are killed/raped/abused/neglected/etc, over the irrational beliefs of others. You're saying that your disposition to that basically amounts to "so what?"

Your line of thought seems to be a popular one, but I don't think it holds up, under scrutiny.

People erroneously try to apply such a broad perspective of "everything is infinity" and "earth is insignificant, in the cosmic scheme" to such microcosms as everyday, human interaction. Living in society just doesn't work that way. There are immediate consequences for thoughts and actions. If there is anything in this universe that does "matter", it's how you treat other people - whether they be friends, family or strangers.

If you're in a grocery store with your infant - and you turn away from the cart to grab a steak off the rack - what do think about 'infinity', if someone comes along and snatches your child? Is it "oop. Oh well. Good thing we are all apart of infinity. Otherwise I might actually care that my child was just kidnapped"? Since we are all 'a part of infinity', do you view someone stealing your child as if you stole your own child? Exactly how does that work?

No offense, but I think the whole "it doesn't matter because of 'infinity/nihilism/etc' is a cop-out. It is a way to justify to oneself one's unwillingness to recognize any societal norms and mutual respects - though completely without foundation. In the end, though, it doesn't hold up, because when peoples' beliefs do affect you in some way, it because very real.

Great post.
I think he "believes" in infinity. It may be true, and he may be right, ultimately, but it is a cop-out because it is just a belief and not a knowing. If he knew that as the truth, he would also know that even the illusion and belief of relativity is part of infinity also, and that our limited human experience DOES matter, at least to us, even if we are infinity without knowing it. The right thing would be to care for all beings, not to let them suffer, to give himself entirely to ending all suffering he could possibly selflessly, exactly because "it doesn't matter".
If you know that your life doesn't ultimately matter because you are infinite, then give yourself to others who are lost in illusion and still suffering. Then you give meaning to the infinity you BELIEVE in.

It is not beliefs that matter, it is actions. You can have wrong beliefs, but right actions and that is fine. You can have right beliefs and wrong actions and that is just as bad as having wrong beliefs and wrong actions.
Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, but nobody should be free to override another's freewill without their consent. You can believe that you are Jesus Christ for all I care, as long as you love everybody and don't hurt anybody against their will.

Originally Posted by XeL

Every thought and action is infinity. I don't believe in such a thing as a consciousness. You are the same thing as my thoughts, for instance.

A second hand is the same as a clock because the second hand is part of the clock, therefore there is no such thing as a second hand, only a clock is an illogical conclusion. The second hand is part of the clock, part of what it is and what it does. It is not the clock itself because it alone does not do all the things a clock does. People, actions, consciousness, etc, all exist within "infinity" (as you've defined it) are likewise distinct facets of it. It makes no sense to treat every thing within "infinity" as each thing is a limited, distinct part of it. If this were really how you perceived the world, you'd not be able to distinguish a sandwich from a speeding train (as there would be no distinction.)

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

My interpretation of this thread is: "Everyone should let me influence their beliefs"

Pretty much.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

There are three I's in infinity.

Post of the year.

(This was longer than I expected it to be. Lmao. I just find the subject really interesting.)

Originally Posted by XeL

Since I believe we're all the same thing, there is no such term as "people" in my belief.

This is something that I can't say I completely disagree with. I mean, even in terms of consciousness (which I do believe in), I've read plenty to suggest the validity of such concepts as "singular consciousness." I agree that there is possibly a level upon which we are all connected and, indeed, are possibly 'one and the same thing.' However, human experience is not something that allows us to perceive that level. Regardless of what we believe; as far as we know, we are all given one physical existence. All of our loves, hates, passions, inspirations, creations, altruisms and atrocities are finite. Once our lifespans are over, we transition. (Whether that transition comes with a death of 'consciousness', or not, remains to be seen, so it's really irrelevant.) But before our time is up, the experiences we have here are very real.

Would you walk up to a child and stab him in the stomach, since there is 'no such thing as people' and the pain/suffering/death (which are all illusory, according to your philosophy) would not matter? I would hope not. If so, I would have to say that your apathy toward human life is a potential danger to everyone around you - even those who might have love for you.

Originally Posted by XeL

Yes. Since a murder is the same thing as a hug.

You can equate walking up to someone, telling them you love them and giving them a genuine embrace - with walking up to someone, pinning them to the wall, and slitting their throat? How? The lack of some "greater cosmic purpose" (which is really what this is all about) is enough to make you completely devalue the existences of other people? Yes, I know, you say you don't believe in "other people," but how deep does that conviction of yours go?

Do you hold no value for friendship? For love? Does no one inspire you? Do you have no recognition of the plights or experiences of others, whatsoever?

You told me you would be sad and devastated, if the earlier scenario I gave played out. Why? If it doesn't matter, why would you be devastated? That seems to be a contradiction. Of course, what happens to someone doesn't matter in the cosmic sense (in terms of somehow affecting the grand scheme of the universe), but it would matter to YOU. And didn't you say and something you (and me) being "infinity?" So wouldn't it, therefore affect 'infinity", to some degree?

Originally Posted by XeL

Every thought and action is infinity. I don't believe in such a thing as a consciousness. You are the same thing as my thoughts, for instance.

I would get sad and devastated. But since there is no I in infinity, it doesn't matter. What I "feel" is merely a reflection of infinity, nothing else.

Infinity is an endless continuity. It is a unit of measurement. Yes, it is a very attractive word, and one that almost immediately provokes a sense of awe, but it is not a term that can - in itself - give meaning to things like love, hate, computer chips or McDonald's. These things are a part of an Infinite System, sure. On that, I couldn't agree with you more. But to say that nothing in this (one) life matters, simply because 'we' happen to be a part of an Infinite System, is to completely trivialize the significance of our (allegedly) short, 'conscious' terms/times within that system.

What you feel, inside, is a reflection (or, more accurately, a product) of infinity. Yes. I agree with you on that. But it makes it no less significant to those other 'individual consciousnesses" out there, who are experiencing this 'life' for the first (as perceived) time.

Think of a major, historical University as being the known universe.
You're just another average student. Not really into any clubs, no school activities, but have a pretty good base of friends and acquaintances.
One day, you get hit by a car and die.
Now, in the Grand Scheme of that University's history, your death means absolutely Shit. It's insignificant. You never did anything that was going to change the school, so the school doesn't really care what happened to you.
However, you had a lot of really close friends. You've met their parents. You've made friends with your friends other friends. You've had some sort of social impact. To many people, your death matters. It matters because it will be the last time they will ever laugh with you, or hear your perspective on life, or share off-the-wall adventures with you. In essence, they have lost a part of themselves.

Originally Posted by XeL

If we make the assumption that everything is the same thing (which is the assumption that I make), beliefs don't matter.

I disagree. Like I said, I'm very open to the idea that everything is essentially the same thing (My mind tends to tip toward things like quantum entanglement and the Implicate/Explicate Order Theory of the Universe as possible evidence of this - among other phenomena), but I think you and I define what "matters" in different terms.

You seem to think that, if something doesn't affect the universe on a massive scale, it does not "matter."
I think that the only thing that really does matter in the Universe (to say nothing of Creationist possibilities) is sentient experience. What I do affects another, even if that other is simply an extension of myself that does not know it is an extension of myself. If I attack this 'other', he will suffer. If we are connected on that unseen (Implicate) level, and I kill this man, his family and friends will suffer. And even if you say it doesn't matter, in the cosmic sense, in the realm of sentient experience, it will be significant.

Spoiler for Dannon Quote:

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Great post.
I think he "believes" in infinity. It may be true, and he may be right, ultimately, but it is a cop-out because it is just a belief and not a knowing. If he knew that as the truth, he would also know that even the illusion and belief of relativity is part of infinity also, and that our limited human experience DOES matter, at least to us, even if we are infinity without knowing it...

Spoiler for Mark Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark75

A second hand is the same as a clock because the second hand is part of the clock, therefore there is no such thing as a second hand, only a clock is an illogical conclusion. The second hand is part of the clock, part of what it is and what it does. It is not the clock itself because it alone does not do all the things a clock does. People, actions, consciousness, etc, all exist within "infinity" (as you've defined it) are likewise distinct facets of it. It makes no sense to treat every thing within "infinity" as each thing is a limited, distinct part of it. If this were really how you perceived the world, you'd not be able to distinguish a sandwich from a speeding train (as there would be no distinction.)

Very well said.

[Edit:]
XeL, for a good example of where our ideas kind of meet in the middle, though differ slightly, check out this quote:

Originally Posted by The Holographic Universe

This is a profound suggestion. In his general theory of relativity Einstein astounded the world when he said that space and time are not separate entities, but are smoothly linked and part of a larger whole he called the space-time continuum. Bohm takes this idea a giant step further. He says that everything in the universe is part of a continuum. Despite the apparent separateness of things at the explicate level, everything is a seamless extension of everything else, and ultimately even the implicate and explicate orders blend into each other.

Take a moment to consider this. Look at your hand. Now look at the light streaming from the lamp beside you. And at the dog resting at your feet. you are not merely made of the same things. You are the same thing. One thing. Unbroken. One enormous something that has extended its uncountable arms and appendages into all the apparent objects, atoms, restless oceans, and twinkling stars in the cosmos.

Bohm cautions that this does not mean the universe is a giant undifferentiated mass. Things can be part of an undivided whole and still possess their own unique qualities. To illustrate what he means he points to the little eddies and whirlpools that often form in a river. At a glance such eddies appear to be separate things and possess many individual characteristics such as size, rate, and direction of rotation, et cetera. But careful scrutiny reveals that it is impossible to determine where any given whirlpool ends and the river begins. Thus, Bohm is not suggesting that the differences between "things" is meaningless. He merely wants us to be aware constantly that dividing various aspects of the holomovement into "things" is always an abstraction, a way of making those aspects stand out in our perception by our way of thinking. In attempts to correct this, instead of calling different aspects of the holomovement "things," he prefers to call them "relatively independent
subtotalities.''

http://fusionanomaly.net/holographicuniverse.html

We may all be connected, but that does not mean one should take our individualities - that we do still posses - as insignificant or meaningless.

At least, that's what I believe.

I'd like to add that it DOES matter to us EVEN if we DO KNOW we are infinite. It can only not matter if we just believe that we are infinite.

XeL, honestly I can see what you've said as wonderful in some ways and terrible in others. The reason is that you haven't seemed to have gotten to the core of the issue, or the greater context. The letdown of this is that I can see this belief set inside Relativism, Nihilism and, on the contrary, Spirituality.

I'll start by saying this: Having seen the image in your signature box (which says 'Against all authority') I can see that your whole belief set seems to be Relativistic. The reason why this is a problem is because Relativism denies authority; it denies not only facts but also it denies Absolute truth, for the sake of some kind of intellectual narcissism or power. Such a premise could be bluntly said to be "Anything means what I mean it to mean" (The Absolute is relative). The major distortion is that it is ignorant of any context, and in the big picture, it even ignores its own. If you ever want to learn or grow positively in any possible way, you need to realize this error. There are reasons why this may not apply to you, which I'll explain in the second half of my post. For now I'll continue on the issue.

Originally Posted by XeL

The thing is. In my belief there is no "I". That makes it impossible for me to believe anything (because anything I choose to believe in is the same thing). My "thoughts" are infinity, just like everything else. What I "do", don't "do" and "think" doesn't matter, because it's the same thing.

While it is true that there is no distinction possible in an infinite reality, you are superimposing the hypothetical by saying "This is my belief" and then saying "In my belief there is no "I". That makes it impossible for me to believe anything." Is this not obviously a contradiction? If it were your belief, you can't say 'beliefs don't matter' because a smart person probably won't listen to you. Generally speaking, Context includes content. Please remember that!

Confusing that your belief is the same as everything else, equates to thinking murder is the same as a hug. They may arise out of the same source (infinity), however they are comparatively not of the same quality or purpose.

Originally Posted by XeL

Since I believe we're all the same thing, there is no such term as "people" in my belief.

I think you mean "Since I believe we're all the same thing, there is no such term as "people" in infinity" If you are going to elaborate more about your belief, you have to explain it from the context in which it exists, and then explain how it is still true in 'infinity'.

Aside from the Relativistic view of your explanation, there is Nihilism. The Nihilistic aspect is typically about denying your own importance or personal belief set because of a contrast to the bigger picture it seems indifferent or pointless. Religions and morality don't have seem have any real value. However, my interpretation of this in your posts isn't quite as convincing, because you admit that you can 'be the change you wish to see the world'; in a meaningless world you can find meaning, or that you do not really need to change the world but only yourself.

Originally Posted by XeL

Be the change you want to see in the world

Personally, I've stopped caring about what others think of my belief. Why should I care? If you are confident enough in your belief, you shouldn't even have to defend yourself.

The first time I read this post XeL, I thought what you were saying meant something different; something that was genuine. In spite of everything I've said above, I have to show how your belief can be interpreted positively. In spiritual devotion, what you are saying is entirely true.

"Be the change you want to see in the world" is a valid saying in a spiritual context, because it holds emphasis in becoming through growth, rather than influencing or "trying to change the world." When this quote is taken into a relativistic context, it has the potential to promote destruction and ignorance. This is a profound contrast to the fundamental spiritual context, which dwells in love, forgiveness and acceptance; affirming that the Absolute is the Absolute, and the relative is the relative.

Originally Posted by Mark75

If your confidence in your beliefs is well placed, you should have no trouble defending them.

To expand on what I said above: While this is true when those beliefs are of worldly and relative importance, defending them is not the purpose in devotion. When there is faith in the Divine or 'infinity', there is no worldly justification or proof required. It reflects the 'infinite' truth and stands in its own integrity. MementoMori touched on this; as the truth remains throughout eternity it needs no defense.

I think Buddha can provide some insight on this whole matter too (On devotion):

When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge.

I hope you can explain what you mean on a deeper level XeL, and how you can compare it with what I've said above?

I can see that I'm not getting my point across... Sigh, I only have myself to blame ;/. English is not my first language.

When I have time tomorrow I'll make a better post replying to everything you guys have said above.