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    Thread: The Philosophical Implications of Lucid Dreaming

    1. #1
      Member StephenBerlin's Avatar
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      The Philosophical Implications of Lucid Dreaming

      The Philosophical Implications of Lucid Dreaming

      What are the philosophical implications of learning to repeatedly become awake and aware in our dreams? This is not a question for those who utilize lucidity solely for pleasure seeking. There is, of course, nothing wrong with the indulgence of our appetites in our lucid dreams - and I readily succumb to these myself in more instances than I care to admit. I keep expecting to find God in a tank-top. But in my more reflective moments, and especially following long lucid dreams with wide-ranging content, I muse on the meaning of our privilege.

      For many years, I longed for release from the bondage of this world. I yearned for the freedom promised by religion, alluded to by myth and demanded by my heart. I embarked upon many of the paths common to those of us called seekers, and each - (for me) - led only to disappointment and increasing despair.

      Ultimately and unexpectedly, at age 32, I had a “Vision of God” which I have described in a previous posting. It was many years before I allowed myself to acknowledge that my Encounter With Light met the criteria for being A Dream. Rather than diminishing the significance of it, I matured to realize that this made the same or similar experiences attainable again, and not only for me.

      Ten years later, thanks to Stephen LaBerge, I learned to lucid dream. As a result, I have had several similar transcendent experiences. This explains my loyalty.

      Whereas, in my opinion, transcendence should be the primary goal of all spiritually oriented lucid dreamers, those of us in this Forum know that this is by no means all that lucid dreaming has to offer. It offers freedom - total freedom - as wonderful and initially intimidating as freedom turns out to be. And, as we each well know, unequivocal freedom is something that the waking world cannot offer. Thus we must conclude that lucid dreamers inhabit two distinctly different worlds. We can consciously dwell in another realm that others only dream about. We have proven to ourselves that we do not need a starship, time machine, guru or death to leave our limits behind. And, one of the aspects I love the most, and conceivably the reason more people do not lucid dream - we cannot deny that we face our own creation.

      So getting to my point, how many of you in this Forum share my philosophical perspective that the world in which we lucid dream - at least in terms of Significance to the Self - is as real and viable as this waking one? And, for those who believe in life after death, wouldn’t lucid dreaming be a likely taste of what life might be without a physical body?

      I believe we oneironauts have a bond. We share a secret. We can explain it to others, but it really must be experienced to understand. /Stephen Berlin

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      I very much share your view that life in the next World must be rather similar to having an altered state of consiousness experience, such as a LD, in this life. In a LD, you can change things with your mind and spirits say that that is what you can do in the Spirit World. When you have an ASC, you experience a mix of objective and subjective realities, e.g. when you have a hypnopompic hallucination, you can hear physically what is going on in the house, say, but at the same time see someone in a hallucinatory fashion in your bedroom. If life in the next World is like an ASC in this World, then it would explain the fact that when spirits come back through mediums to give certain descriptions of the Spirit World in common with one another but also information that conflicts with what other spirits have reported, then this would be explained in the sense that one would be experiencing a mix of what I call objective reality and subjective reality (just like in a HH experience or in a hypnotic trance or in a LD).

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      Another thought provoking post, Stephen

      It seems to coincide with some of my recent thoughts on lucid dreaming. I've realised that looking back in retrospect on just over a year of actively seeking to induce lucid dreams that it seems that I always would discovered lucid dreaming sooner or later, one way or another. While I had never paid particular attention to my dreams previously, through my life I had always seemed to be looking for something 'more'. This expressed itself in a proneness to fantasy, reading and an interest in mythology, but also in a dissilusionment with modern religion, having attended a faith school as a kid I early on realised that I wasn't satisfied with christianity's presentation of the spiritual and the divine; although I felt that the fault didn't lie with the original teachings as much as how they had been interpreted, and subsequently distorted, down the years; and of course, these feelings were filtered through the confusion and inexperience of my childhood self.

      Back to lucid dreaming. At first I was thrilled with the endless possibilities, a chance to live the fantasies of the books and films, etc, of my childhood. Lucid dreaming felt like something I'd always suspected lay beyond the everyday, I'd always been hoping for something like it, it was literally a dream come true. Lucid dreaming presents a kind of reality+1, on the one hand, we continue to live our everyday lives in the world of the mundane, with all its ups and downs, on the other hand there's this realm of boundless opportunity. But I've come to realise that that yearning I've felt since a child, when a particular novel, or song seemed to affect me on a profound level, and when I'd look to the horizon when sitting as a passenger on a long car journey and wonder what could be over the next hill, wasn't just a desire for a escapism, but a very real need to transcend the boundaries of the physical universe, and catch a glimpse, however brief, of that spiritual truth, the divine.
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      Just Pushing the limits of our Brain. And what we are Expecting

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      Quote Originally Posted by StephenBerlin View Post
      The Philosophical Implications of Lucid Dreaming

      So getting to my point, how many of you in this Forum share my philosophical perspective that the world in which we lucid dream - at least in terms of Significance to the Self - is as real and viable as this waking one? And, for those who believe in life after death, wouldn’t lucid dreaming be a likely taste of what life might be without a physical body?
      I've come to believe that if anything can exist in the mind, then ultimately it exists if you are conscious of it. I was raised in a christian family and I have much respect for it because it taught me the basics of right and wrong when I was young, it set me toward a spiritually healthy path. However, now that I am older, I've learned lots of things that directly contrast the things I was taught. What I am saying is that although I disagree with it now, I have respect for it because when I was young I was naive and needed a guiding ideology.

      After lots of reading about physics and how much we still don't understand, eventually I realized that I could never find the answers I was searching for there because science has no way to prove the existence of a subjective experience. I never really thought much of other planes or realms of existence until after my first few lucid dreams. I love learning about how other planes can be consistent with multiverse theory , involving multidimensional fractal geometry and stuff.

      I am reading a book right now about Tibetan Dream Yoga. They actually use the state of lucid dreaming to prepare for the end of physical existence. It talks about how dreams and waking life are the same process of karmic traces resolving themselves (over many lifetimes) in seemingly different ways. I highly suggest it.

      "My body may be bound by gravity, but my imagination knows no limits." -Me
      -start date: 3/31/10, current LD count: 131
      Goals: [X] successfully stabalize a LD, explore dream world, and learn to fly
      [ ] Discover the source of consciousness, find my spirit guide, experience absolute cosmic unity

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      I personally reject the theories about alternate universes becuase I feel that is not the purpose of parts of the human brain. I do believe however that LDing can be a seriously big jump in the future of mankind. One day we might be able to use them to a far higher level where everyone is active at night, where people can run simulations or practise for real life situations or even connect or brains together once we are extremely advanced. My point is that nowadays many people are stuck in a routine only using 20% of what their body has to offer them and that in the future humankind will realise that we have much more powerfull processing capabilities then previously thought. Off course according to moores law computers already out smart mmans entire brain processwing power so the LDing will probably always be used for leisure or personal uses.

    7. #7
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      Philosophy from dreams?? That's called Religion.

      What knowledge can one gain from being fully aware in dream state?

      The truth to vital questions, I find in my mind. Fear is produced within, as is love. In this lies choice, and dreams teach us this lesson repeatedly. It seems to be the most common lesson of nature.

      The mind-body connection question I find can also be answered. That question being: according to Colin McGinn(English Dude)
      How is it possible for conscious states to
      depend upon brain states? How can technicolour phenomenology arise
      from soggy grey matter? What makes the bodily organ we call the brain so
      radically different from other bodily organs, say the kidneys-the body
      parts without a trace of consciousness? How could the aggregation of
      millions of individually insentient neurons generate subjective awareness?
      It is that basic disconnect in terms of knowledge, between brain and consciousness. Lucid dreaming gives you a front row seat to operations of consciousness. Once you dive deep into Lucid waters, new truth is as unbelievable yet natural as a ray of sunlight.
      Carl Jung's idea of collective unconscious just begins to address this question. He started from a series of macro-psychological surveys based on differing cultures throughout the world. One unique concept he found in common among all peoples is the image and idea of the hero. This led to other similar discoveries of what he called "archetypes". All people have a collection of imagery which manifests in our dreams to provide the proverbial backdrop. The amazing observation Jung made, was that cultures shared these images and did so for eons of time. Somewhat like Grimm fairy tales that continue to be retold; these are archetypes of the collective unconscious. He also discovered this imagery manifesting in dreams of very young children. Most of whom had not been extensively exposed to ancient symbols and vivid archetypal imagery appearing in their dreams.
      This brief step into the world of Jung is simply a glimpse of the puzzle of human psychological/psychic operation. There is a field of energy, whatever physical properties it may posses seem ambiguous at this point. Lucidity provides the opportunity to explore these images and even interact with them fully conscious!
      Lucidity also dissolves boundaries. In a hippy-trippy way it can show you the true nature of matter and reality. We are essentially dealing with pure consciousness in lucid dreams. That is Philosophy's drug of choice!

      Try presenting your whole mind a philosophical question. I am usually completely confused by the answers. lol.

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