Thread: Using Caffeine as a Trigger

Don't give up after a single trial! It could have just been a bad day for it. Even people with the best recall ever have days where they remember nothing. I also took two cholinergic supplements last night and got nada. Maybe it was just a bad night to dream.

Yeah you might be right. I think REM cycles are hard to predict and they seem to vary. I think its a timing issue with caffeine. Im not cutting caffeine completely any more but keeping it limited to one cup if any at all. That should still be alright I think.

I took a higher dose of caffeine this time because I wanted to WILD on the back side of peek plasma levels. I added melatonin and menthol as an afterthought.

Dose: Pre-bed: A little Guinness WBTB: 4AM 200MG Caffeine, 5:41AM 1MG Melatonin, 6:05AM 2 tablespoons peppermint leaves in tea.
Side Effects: mildly upset stomach
Sleep Duration: 5hrs/1hr
WBTB: Yes 2(brief then 1 hrs 40min)
Lucid: Yes (sort of)
Vividness: Medium to high
Stability: Low
Dream Comments: I woke a little after 5am from a non vivid NLD about texting my friend Zack in the cart garage at a Wal-Mart. I lay down and stared at a celling fan when I woke up. I definitely could tell my tolerance to caffeine has been significantly lowered since I reduced my daily intake. I felt very awake and could tell that heart rate went up and started breathing faster.

Later the menthol gave me very strong sexual HI and made it very difficult to relax for awhile. Finally around 7AM I started going to sleep.

Ok now the interesting part. I had maybe 6 or 7 DILDs after this. The only problem was that as soon as I realized I was dreaming I would immediately wake up. Each time I would be still not moving and continue to WILD. I tried several tricks. Counting, repetitive "motion", focusing on the body, and SSILD. All were effective but with each DILD I still woke up. I don't remember the dreams because I didn't want to move to record them. I unsuccessfully tried to commit them to memory but they were just random little snippets anyway. Then, the alarm got me at 8am. (I had something I had to do at 9) I snoozed for a while but didn't have time to DILD before the next alarm. I really think that if I had had a few more hours to sleep I would have eventually got it. I may repeat this next Saturday morning only with a slightly smaller caffeine dose. Overall, I really think the menthol added that little extra "boost" and was quite pleased with the result.

Night of March 16, 2013
Dose: 4 bags green tea
Supporting Supplements: All Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 1 bag of popcorn, 1 ice cream sandwich
Bedtime: 11:40PM
WBTB wake time: 5:00AM
Dose Time: 5:25AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: One micro-lucid.

Dream recall wasn't bad (5 dreams total, 3 of them post-WBTB) but vividness wasn't as high as last time. I did catch one micro-lucid but it blew up in about 3 seconds. I wanted to DEILD with it but I woke up all the way and had really strong sensations of my physical body.

I was glad to get the micro but I wonder why I couldn't flow with it into a DEILD. Do I need some extra stability? Some kind of anchor? The idea of adding some L-theanine occurs to me.

And then, of course, your combined coffee/menthol cross-training experiment had nice results! Looks like a fun one to try, too. Decisions decisions...

Nice recall! And a score for lucid! It will be interesting to read your DJ entry. Interesting idea for L-Theanine. I am starting to think some sort of caffeine stack is necessary to get consistent results.

Originally Posted by Xanous

Nice recall! And a score for lucid! It will be interesting to read your DJ entry. Interesting idea for L-Theanine. I am starting to think some sort of caffeine stack is necessary to get consistent results.

Thanks! I don't normally journal micro-lucids online, since I don't add them to my count. Here's the journal entry for it if you're interested:

"I'm in a dimly lit stone hallway. There's light up ahead. I realize that it makes no sense that I'm here and I become lucid. My mind is filled with thoughts about how green tea tastes. Something about neurochemistry.

I start to move but it's coming apart. I get ready to DEILD. I wake up and am so aware of my physical body that I can't go anywhere with the DEILD."

I interpreted that as perhaps some kind of over-excitement problem or just coming too easily to a full awakening. Micro-lucids like that are great fuel for real LDs, I think, but it requires a relaxed mind and the ability to DEILD. I noticed that your micro-lucids were also a little unstable with caffeine and I was wondering if we were facing the same problem. That's what made me think of the L-theanine.

And yeah, caffeine seems to work best at enhancing another stack (which means there are even more possible combos to try!) It seems like Yuschak was moving in the same direction with his ideas for how it could enhance G+C.

Oh that really is micro. But still. I call it a success for caffeine! It's better than my recent failures.

I was thinking about Taurine today. I was wondering why they add it to energy drinks along with B vitamins (and other stuff). I actually take a dose of Taurine and B6 before I go on my longer bike rides and find that I perform much better. So I did some searching and found that Taurine activates GABA receptors in the brain. So if I read it right, that promotes calm mental focus. Also, I have read other blog entries and DV posts that claim Taurine seems to give more vivid dreams. This has got me a little excited about adding it as a supporting supplement or even trying it as a stand alone aid. I've barely scratched the surface there but what do ya'll think?

It seems like it could be useful. I might help make your sleep deeper too, since it is a sedative. The GABA (And glycine) receptor activity it has does cause that calm mental state and will probably enhance dreams too, but it's not what makes you focused. Most GABA drugs actually unfocus you, but taurine seems to get around this. It's known to enhance long-term potentiation in the hippocampus through other receptors which is probably related to it, and will probably also increase recall and vividness if taken at the right time. I don't think it would hurt to give it a shot.

Ah, I see. Well I did read that bit about enhancing long-term potentiation in the hippocampus but I wasnt sure what that meant yet. Im very slowly learning all this brain chemistry stuff.

Anyway, as long we don't see any big error here, I think I'll work some in soon. Thanks, Alyzarin.

Sounds like a very fun idea, Xanous! I may have to pick up a little taurine myself or I'm going to be all sad when I hear about all the fun you're having.

Man. The shopping list for my next "goodies" purchase has gotten ridiculously long!

Originally Posted by Xanous

Ah, I see. Well I did read that bit about enhancing long-term potentiation in the hippocampus but I wasnt sure what that meant yet. Im very slowly learning all this brain chemistry stuff.

Anyway, as long we don't see any big error here, I think I'll work some in soon. Thanks, Alyzarin.

No problem. And the simple version is that it's involved in memory and spatial learning, possibly among some other things, so having more of it is usually good. That's probably all you need to know for basic stuff at the moment. (Oh, and it's direct opposite is long-term depression.)

Night of March 18, 2013 - Failure
Dose: 100MG
Supporting Supplements: 100MG B6, 500MG Taurine
Bedtime: 10:00PM
WBTB: 3:30AM brief
Dose Time: 3:30AM
Technique: SSILD
Side Effects: Wakefulness, gurgling stomach
Lucid: No

I am starting to think that caffeine is more of a recall booster than a lucid trigger. Perhaps my successes were just helping me recall the lucids I was already having? Probably not but it's something to consider.

In any event, I would say this morning's results were tainted. Our son woke us multiple times all night so I am unsure of any effects the caffeine stack had. I was awoken 45min after dose with no recall and had slight insomnia for about 30min. I recall one really vivid dream around 5:19 but that was between alarms. This was the last of my caffeine pills so next time I will see if a more natural form of caffeine makes any difference.

As far as the taurine... I am not sure if it helped anything or not. I'll it by itself and at a higher does some night soon.

A choline supplement may be a good thing here too as it should give a higher percentage of chance to be dreaming when the caffeine peeks. It seems I may have been in nREM when I woke up after the initial dose (though I have continued sleeping if I had not been disturbed)

Now if I could ever get a solid night without being woken up a hundred times, I may be able to get this thing figured out.

Night of March 23, 2013
Dose: 4 bags green tea
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 1 ice cream sandwich, 2g fish oil, WBTB: 4 bags green tea, 2400mg soy lecithin, 200mg L-theanine, 4g fish oil
Bedtime: 11:50PM
WBTB wake time: 3:00AM
Dose Time: 3:30AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: Yes! One full lucid dream + one micro-lucid.

The lucid dream:
The Hall of Letters - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Also, the micro-lucid:
"I'm in a house with ugly, dark green, 1970s-looking carpet. I realize that I'm dreaming. I get really excited and perform a diving roll across the house into the living room. I feel really agile and badass. I see an old projection TV, a leather couch, and further away a kitchen. The dream destabilizes and I wake up too much to DEILD."

Results
This attempt was definitely a success. I did wrestle with some insomnia, but this was due in part to some bad weather (which was not only noisy in its own right but also made the dogs act kind of weird.)

There were two important differences in this attempt vs. the last. First, the addition of soy lecithin, with the goal of providing a source of choline. This is a pretty new lucid aid for me, so over time I may cycle in other cholingergic aids to see whether there's any noticeable difference in my results.

The second difference was adding a bit of L-theanine. This may have been significant given that this lucid dream was really a micro-lucid that I semi-chained into a new lucid dream. It wasn't quite a DEILD in that I was hanging aware in the void rather than actually awake, but previously I found caffeine dreams to be a bit less stable than I needed. The L-theanine may be helping there. Xanous, since you also had some

Thoughts
I like this idea of combining a) some form of cholingergic stimulation, b) a stabilizing aid like L-theanine, and c) caffeine as the adenosine antagonist. This is very much the direction from which I think Yuschak was looking at things.

There was a study on the impact of caffeine on the sleep of rats that Yuschak cited which I found very interesting. There was a level of caffeine at which a measurable change in type of sleep occurred without any increase in wakefulness. Here's the quote from the abstract: "The 0.125 and 1.25 mg/kg doses of caffeine increased SWS1 at the expense of SWS2 (P less than or equal to 0.05), and did not affect total sleep time in any time period measured." They also measured no impact on REM in this range. If we scale this up to a human range like 165 pounds (~75 kilograms), you get something like 90-95 mg of caffeine as a ballpark figure.

Here's the study: The dose-response effects of caffeine on sleep in ... [Brain Res. 1987] - PubMed - NCBI

Interestingly, Yuschak's own tests seemed to suggest more frequent wakings with caffeine doses as low as 50 mg! So we have lots more playing around to do. However, if I'm estimating 30mg of caffeine per bag of green tea, I should be dropping back to 3 bags of tea to get closer to 90mg. Two bags may even be closer to what gets best results. It'll be fun exploring the whole range here over the coming weeks.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Results
This attempt was definitely a success. I did wrestle with some insomnia, but this was due in part to some bad weather (which was not only noisy in its own right but also made the dogs act kind of weird.)

There were two important differences in this attempt vs. the last. First, the addition of soy lecithin, with the goal of providing a source of choline. This is a pretty new lucid aid for me, so over time I may cycle in other cholingergic aids to see whether there's any noticeable difference in my results.

The second difference was adding a bit of L-theanine. This may have been significant given that this lucid dream was really a micro-lucid that I semi-chained into a new lucid dream. It wasn't quite a DEILD in that I was hanging aware in the void rather than actually awake, but previously I found caffeine dreams to be a bit less stable than I needed. The L-theanine may be helping there. Xanous, since you also had some

Cool. I'll definitely be trying this. I need to find some use for all that L-Theanine I bought. I think cholingergic aids make a lot of sense too. I'll probably try DMAE when it arrives. However, I realize DMAE is an aid all on its own.

Originally Posted by CanisLucidus

Thoughts
I like this idea of combining a) some form of cholingergic stimulation, b) a stabilizing aid like L-theanine, and c) caffeine as the adenosine antagonist. This is very much the direction from which I think Yuschak was looking at things.

There was a study on the impact of caffeine on the sleep of rats that Yuschak cited which I found very interesting. There was a level of caffeine at which a measurable change in type of sleep occurred without any increase in wakefulness. Here's the quote from the abstract: "The 0.125 and 1.25 mg/kg doses of caffeine increased SWS1 at the expense of SWS2 (P less than or equal to 0.05), and did not affect total sleep time in any time period measured." They also measured no impact on REM in this range. If we scale this up to a human range like 165 pounds (~75 kilograms), you get something like 90-95 mg of caffeine as a ballpark figure.

Here's the study: The dose-response effects of caffeine on sleep in ... [Brain Res. 1987] - PubMed - NCBI

Interestingly, Yuschak's own tests seemed to suggest more frequent wakings with caffeine doses as low as 50 mg! So we have lots more playing around to do. However, if I'm estimating 30mg of caffeine per bag of green tea, I should be dropping back to 3 bags of tea to get closer to 90mg. Two bags may even be closer to what gets best results. It'll be fun exploring the whole range here over the coming weeks.

Yes! I'll have to read that over when I get a chance. It guess if those figures are right then my 100MG dose is good... At least for me.

That's some good stuff. Thanks, CL!

Originally Posted by Xanous

Cool. I'll definitely be trying this. I need to find some use for all that L-Theanine I bought. I think cholingergic aids make a lot of sense too. I'll probably try DMAE when it arrives. However, I realize DMAE is an aid all on its own.

Cool, definitely beats letting the expiration date hit! As I recall, you weren't much of a responder to L-theanine. What's up with that, I wonder? Could valerian root be worth a try for you at some point?

DMAE has been puzzlingly effective for me so I'm looking forward to seeing what happens for you. It's one of those aids that I didn't expect much out of and perplexed me when it actually worked.

Originally Posted by Xanous

Yes! I'll have to read that over when I get a chance. It guess if those figures are right then my 100MG dose is good... At least for me.

That's some good stuff. Thanks, CL!

Yeah, it at least helps give some nice theoretical cover for what you're observing. Of course, the experiments you conduct on yourself are of more practical value than the math I apply to rat trials run in the 1980s. But it still helps formulate guidelines and ideas as to how this stuff is falling together.

I think that next time I'll use a similar combo, but with caffeine just slightly lowered. May play with the lecithin dosage as well. Fun fun. Kids with chemistry sets.

Cool, definitely beats letting the expiration date hit! As I recall, you weren't much of a responder to L-theanine. What's up with that, I wonder? Could valerian root be worth a try for you at some point?

I've only used low doses 100-200mg and combined with Valerian Root. Maybe the 400mg range would be better.

Night of March 28, 2013
Dose: 1/2 cup coffee
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 10 mg melatonin, WBTB: 1000mg taurine, 100mg b6, 300mg L-theanine
Bedtime: 10:30PM
WBTB wake time: 3:30AM
Dose Time: 3:30AM
Technique: SSILD
Lucid : Close

I woke up at 4AM from a dream where I was in bed thinking how bummed I was that I didn't get a lucid. Had a vivid dream later and then another dream where I woke immediately after becoming lucid but I can't remember the dream. I can remember is being surprised and disappointed but a little relieved that whatever it was didn't really happen. I should note that I was extremely tired for my WBTB and snoozed 30min before actually getting up. I wonder if I would have better results being well rested or later in the morning.

Night of March 30, 2013
Dose: 3 bags green tea
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 2g fish oil, WBTB: 3 bags green tea, 4800mg soy lecithin, 450mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
Bedtime: 11:50PM
WBTB wake time: 5:00AM
Dose Time: 5:30AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: No, but very close!

It should be noted that I had a horrible night's sleep. The dogs woke up the household twice after bedtime so it was a pretty rough night. Also, I could hear them clowning around downstairs during my WBTB, which spoiled my Zen a bit.

The end result was a pretty serious patch of insomnia. Two possible factors here: my mildly irritable mood from being woken up so much or the replacement of L-theanine w/ Valerian Root. I may stick with the Valerian Root next week to see how it goes, but I'll keep this in mind. (BTW, that stuff smells kinda weird.)

Here was the most interesting dream, where I came really close to lucidity:

"I'm part of a squad of soldiers in some war of the future. We're huddled in a group of bombed out buildings after some fearsome firefight. One of the group is called out as a traitor and a coward by our leader, a grizzled, dark-haired guy in his 40s. The leader shoots the traitor in the head. I feel sick and horrified.

To set an example, the leader fires a grenade at the "traitor's" body, shattering it into a bloody mess. Now I'm really upset. I don't want for any of this to be happening. I look away and look back and all of the gore has vanished. The leader shouts at me: "What did you just do?" I hold out my hands toward him. He drops his rifle and slumps to the ground.

I feel like my dream powers have somehow come to me in real life. I wonder whether this might be a dream but fresh fighting starts up outside of the building, distracting me. I head out for battle with the rest of the squad."

Hopefully my sleep will be in better order next caffeine night!

So close! I like action though. Really cool!

I happened upon this thread but didn't want to participate. I know effects from drugs can wear off, then you are at a new baseline. When you get off the drug, you just reach new lows; however, I drink green tea and coffee--usually coffee, hence, my post.

I had been drinking green tea, and recently switched to coffee. I didn't note exactly when, but it was relatively recently. It may have coincided with the beginning of my fiscal join date of DV which is important because at this time I also learned of SSILD...and THIS is important because since the beginning of this fiscal year, I've had a record 13 lucid dreams. That is a record for a 60 day period.

I believe I can attribute a few of those lucids to the SSILD method. I recently had a 3 successful nights out of four. The last night was after an overload of caffeine. I don't know what was the cause for this after being so successful as of late, but I don't remember ever being successful hopped up on caffeine. I had a terrible nights sleep. It wasn't long for the lucid portion, but here it is:

#57 Jump In the River - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Thanks for the thoughts Sandman. It's easy to forget caffeine is a drug and should be treated like one. Im glad you mentioned that.

SSILD is an interesting technique that Ive had a lot of success with but eventually stopped working for me. I wonder how much my initial successes and then later failures we due to that fact.

Thanks for posting the dream. Did you have too much caffeine just before bed or was it earlier in the day?

Xanous,

I had a medium froofroo coffee from a gas station at 6:30 AM and another at 1:30 PM. I got to bed between 9:30 and 10:30. I woke up at 2:30 AM or so and didn't get back to sleep until 5 and change.

I hope SSILD doesn't stop working for me. It's the only method that I have really had luck with except DILD.

Night of April 6, 2013
Dose: 3 bags green tea
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 2g fish oil, WBTB: 3 bags green tea, 4800mg soy lecithin, 900mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
Bedtime: 11:50PM
WBTB wake time: ~5:00AM
Dose Time: ~5:30AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: No

I didn't have a lucid dream with this one, but my recall after the WBTB was insane. I got up and started walking around, giving no real effort to recalling these dreams but they stll held together fine throughout the morning. It was a weekend and we had a really busy day out with the kids doing various activities, and I didn't get the chance to journal until the mid-afternoon. Fortunately, my recall in the morning had been so vivid that I still got some good journal entries out of it. Some fun dreams too!

Does anyone else find that they have strong recall when they use WBTB caffeine?