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    Thread: Lucid dreaming devices that don't use a sleep mask

    1. #1
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      Lucid dreaming devices that don't use a sleep mask

      Hey guys. I've been doing some research, and it looks like all the lucid dreaming devices out there use some type of mask design. There's the NovaDreamer, Remee, and the Dream Mask. Besides commercial products, you can find a dozen different DIY designs that work on the same principle. Seeing as dream masks aren't really the magic bullet for lucid dreaming, I'm wondering if anyone knows of different devices that don't use the whole mask idea.

      I have access to a research team and some funding. We are going to look into different ways we can use technology to help induce lucid dreams. So, we'd like to know what's out there already. I really think an effective LD device can be built, we just haven't found the right thing yet. If you guys have ever had any ideas for a lucid dreaming device (that can be practically built, given the resources), maybe you can share them. We've got the funding/team, so we'll entertain all your ideas.

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      I'm guessing when you mention device you aren't including the likes of some sort of TMS head gear or implants. So then our only real options are the senses which remain, sight, touch, hearing, taste, smell and balance to name the most obvious ones.
      Sight, touch and hearing
      Unfortunately all of these have the exact same level of effectiveness as using a dreaming mask, they all work on the basis of using an external stimuli which translates into the dream which we triggers lucidity in our dream. Using a vibration, flashing light, beeping tone all uses the same core principle. I'm willing to bet that using flashing lights is one of the easiest to use.
      If you are willing to go past basic stimuli like this and actually try messing around with magnetic fields etc I think you could get somewhere. Generally the reason the dreaming mask is sold is because when used properly it is super-effective but it requires a lot of work.

      I do think that there is space to use machines to help the DILD process. A device or short movie which could subliminally make you an expert at lucid dreaming. Every night before sleep you get relaxed and wear a mask for five minutes where you see a string of random colours, strings of text about awareness and little clips of people seeing there hands. Like what they used to use to brainwash people with, but use it to teach a person how to become lucid.
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      Well, I was looking more along the lines of creating a device that works by means other than a DILD. Anything that tries to communicate with the person while they're asleep is doomed from the beginning, at least with our current medical knowledge. The brain blocks out all external stimulus when you go uncounscious, and for weak stimuli that won't wake them up, it's really a matter of luck whether it gets incorporated in the dream.

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      Well in that case, do you have any experience with transcranial magnetic stimulation? or transcranial direct-current stimulation? I've always wondered whether lucidity was able to be activated by targeting the right parts of the brain. If you had the resources maybe you could build some kind of devices which detected when you were in a REM period and then applies quick bursts to stimulate the parts of the brain associated with lucid dreaming. Maybe by even firing once or twice the user could then proceed with lucidity on his own, removing any thoguths of short term or long term danger, since the device would only have to be used once or twice in a night for a very short amount of time. Unless someone thinks of a really novel other way to do this, I think this is your only way to get past the luck factor of EILD and DILD.

      Here is the basic concept which someone else worked on http://www.dreamviews.com/research/8...-research.html
      Last edited by dutchraptor; 03-29-2013 at 04:35 PM.

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      That would be an interesting area to research. I'm not sure the amount of funding we have could be used to build a TMS. I don't think hospitals usually carry TMS machines, and I'm pessimistic about them allowing us access to medical equipment without a doctor on board with the research. In any case, it would need to target the frontal lobes, or possibly the hypothalamus. It might be more trouble than what it's worth, as it wouldn't be affordable for the common folk.

      We might focus more on WILD inductions. It would be relatively simple to wake the person up fully at the end of their REM cycle in the early morning. Then, paired with the proper stimuli based on polysomnography measurements, guide them into a mind-awake body-asleep state. From my experience, the major downfall in trying WILD's is that you're tired and unfocused after waking up in the morning and you end up falling back asleep. If you had a device guiding you through the WILD induction, you might just be able to have a lucid dream every time.
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      That's actually quite a good idea, although it seems that whatever you have in mind for stimulating the awareness required for the person to wild could just as well inside a dream, since you are largely targeting the same place of the brain.

      As far as I know TMS is quite difficult and expensive, but very powerful and effective. It is possible to make the equipment necessary and I've seen it done with a very simple electro-magnet. Take for instance the "god helmet" which used tms to induce various kinds of effects. I don't think tdcs is too far off in terms of home use, but I don't think anyone would be quick to jump on the train for making those on a commercial scale, especially since most companies that do make them only sell to certified doctors.
      A plus side to it is that since we are not trying to induce massive change, tdcs really could be an option. Since you are mainly trying to activate the dorslateral prefrontal cortex, you would need very few electrodes and you may not need the same amount of power usually used for treating depression etc, commonly they used 2-2.5 milli amps, but if it could be done with less there would be a lot more security with using the mask or helmet. It may not be an ideal product for the public but it would give an interesting start to see whether you really can get anywhere by stimulating specific neurons in the brain.

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      Azmisov,

      I sent you a PM regarding this.
      If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is: Infinite. ---William Blake

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      I have been working on headbands with various sensors in them. And have had the most luck with a simple accelerometer that is sensitive enough to pick up the heartbeat. As you might guess, playing an audio track tends to either go unnoticed or wake the subject up. But I have found that if there is background music playing all night long, the audio tracks are a lot more successful...

      Let me know if you need help with the software. I have written some free and open source stuff with a plugin interface that can incorporate new hardware very easily.

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      There's some kind of watch that vibrates, I think Sageous mentioned it in some thread, you should pm him as he tried pretty much all the lucid dream technology that came over the years ^^
      Quote Originally Posted by nito89 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      You have to face lucid dreams as cooking:
      Stick it in the microwave and hope for the best?
      MMR (Mental Map Recall)- A whole new way of Recalling and Journaling your dreams
      Trying out MILD? This is how you become skilled at it.

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      So did you build the headbands yourself? Were you using the accelerometer as a replacement for an EKG/Pulse-meter? And were you using the pulse measurement just to detect REM and start playing music? If that is so, I am interested in knowing what algorithm you used to differentiate sleep-stages from the pulse.

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      Yes, I designed and built the headband myself and yes, I am using the accelerometer to just detect eye movements and play audio tracks.

      The algorithm to detect eye movements is real simple and the same code works for EEG devices like the NeuroSky MindSet; https://github.com/lucidcode/LucidSc...r.cs#L260-L330 - I calibrate the values to a scale of 1000 where 0 represents stillness and 1000 is the sensor's maximum. I then wait for a value above 800 for a few milliseconds followed by a value below 800 for between 12 and 32 milliseconds, repeated a few times in a row.

      Here is a good visualization of the process; 60 seconds recorded live from a halograph FM during sleep where 6 blinks triggered an audio track (DT8 Project - Breathe) that woke me up and caused a lot of movement in the last ten seconds:



      The noise between the blinks is the hearbeat, which is not very clear in the recording above as the sensor was not by my temple. Below is another minute-long recording where the sensor was by my temple in parallel with an IR sensor from the Wild Divine LightStone IOM - 63 heartbeats can be counted:



      I am currently still working on an algorithm to detect REM sleep from the pulse, inspired by the findings of Masao Yaso, Atsuo Nuruki, Sei-ichi Tsujimura and Kazutomo Yunokuchi... any help will be greatly appreciated! You can download the raw logs from the Lucid Scribe Database project where I will be posting on a more regular basis again from now on.

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      That is very cool. Most of my research has been detecting the moment someone falls asleep. I came across this tech paper which describes an algorithm to detect sleep stages based on pulse. I don't know if there's an open access version of the paper somewhere, but your local university should have access.

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      By the way, are you using a high sensitivity accelerometer, or will any old $3 one do fine?

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      Thanks. Can you pm me a copy of the paper? The accelerometer in the halograph FM has a resolution of 3660g and a measurement range of 5g (49 m/s2).

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      Thanks for the papers. How is the research going? I developed a new method that you might be interested in: EOG from a webcam.
      Last edited by IAmCoder; 09-25-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by IAmCoder View Post
      Thanks for the papers. How is the research going? I developed a new method that you might be interested in: EOG from a webcam.
      This is great. I am wondering if you can do something similar, but instead of using the webcam to detect eye movement you just use it to detect body movement (kind of like the Android sleep apps which use the accelerometer)?

      The main question though is can a lucid dream be induced by an audio track? Do you have some references for this, and what kind of audio works best? Tones or voice?

      Thanks!
      JIMBO

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      Why would you use technology to do it when you can do it perfectly fine without technology!!!!! there is no any need for any device when only thing you need is yourself lol

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      Quote Originally Posted by Karloky View Post
      Why would you use technology to do it when you can do it perfectly fine without technology!!!!! there is no any need for any device when only thing you need is yourself lol
      yeah! why drive cars when we can just walk somewhere!!!

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      Quote Originally Posted by jimbo12 View Post
      This is great. I am wondering if you can do something similar, but instead of using the webcam to detect eye movement you just use it to detect body movement (kind of like the Android sleep apps which use the accelerometer)?
      Yes, I embedded an accelerometer in a headband and managed to pick up some eye movements. But I don't believe REM can be picked up from body movement (or the absence thereof).

      Quote Originally Posted by jimbo12 View Post
      The main question though is can a lucid dream be induced by an audio track? Do you have some references for this, and what kind of audio works best? Tones or voice?
      I have found that vocal trance anthems work the best for me. Here are some that I cut for just this purpose: /LSDBase/Anthems/. But you need to play background music all night long, otherwise the sudden introduction of sound will wake you up. Here are some references of the effects of the audio tracks on eye movements: Tracks | LSDBase. Here is some anecdotal evidence that music is better than voice: 2012-12-18 Dream triggerd file | LSDBase.

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      Quote Originally Posted by jimbo12 View Post
      yeah! why drive cars when we can just walk somewhere!!!
      why to do anything when there is technology!!!!!! anyway technology can ruin an opportunity to LD and interfere with your sleep and LD ....when I am too much on PC I have really bad dreams etc.

      well ....you don't have to do anything just sit down and relax and technology will do everything for you! a great concept of thinking!

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