Thread: If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

Do you have any evidence for your theory?

It's nice but actually there's evidence against it. Our understanding of physics (which is not, by the way, a completely arbitrary percentage like 5%...) and the data tells us that the universe is going to keep expanding forever, and fizzle out; like a normal explosion.

No, I have no evidence, i don't claim to. I just have an intuitive feeling that this is the way it is. I don't think that this is the first time the universe came from a big bang and I don't think it is the last time.
I have read in a science magazine that they suspect that there have been multiple big bangs and that it has something to do with a higher dimension intersecting this dimension. But I didn't remember the details or the name of the magazine because it wsn't that interesting to me since I feel that physics is good but it is a far way off to discovering the answer to this mystery.

Originally Posted by Xei

Do you have any evidence for your theory?

It's nice but actually there's evidence against it. Our understanding of physics (which is not, by the way, a completely arbitrary percentage like 5%...) and the data tells us that the universe is going to keep expanding forever, and fizzle out; like a normal explosion.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Forgive me if my response has been said before becasue I didn't have the patience to read through hundreds of responses.

The big bang is just part of a cycle. There will be a time when everything goes back to that point and a time when there wil be another big bang. Just like night and day. I am not a scientist so you don't have to believe me, but all the scientists put together only understand 5% of the universe anyway.

The big bang is just the scientist's words for Creator. I find equally improbable that the whole universe popped out of nothing for no reason as that a 'God" created the universe. To me, it makes much more sense that it is a cycle just like all natural cycles.

Maybe it has to do with a higher dimension that the matter and energy is pit out from and explodes into this dimension?

I like the idea of the Big Bang being part of a cycle, but as of now, there is not enough known mass to pull the universe back on itself. Dark matter would do the trick, but as of now, we have not the evidence to back up that theory. You may want to read up on M-theory, though. Interesting stuff.

I don’t consider matters in terms of abstractions.

However, everything is a material construct and inextricably connected.

The reality of a solar system involves points of density within a disc of Hydrogen that through the absorption of emission are constructed into the planets.

Within the emission field of a nucleus, points of density are constructed into electrons which retain their structural integrity due to the density of the emission impacting upon the atom.

paradigm

I just want to state that for anyone reading this in disbelief thinking "the universe has always been here" - we already know that the universe is not eternal. There was a definite start. We know this by the quantity called entropy.

Entropy is a macro state variable that describes the number of micro states a system can take on. Entropy (S) is (delta)S = Q/T with Q = the amount of heat added to a system and T = the temperature at which the heat is added and S = k ln (omega) with k = constant times the number of states the system can take on (assuming all of the states are equally probable). The second law of thermodynamics says that when any process is undergone the entropy of the universe is always greater than or equal to zero.

We know that the universe has finite energy in it. We know that the universe is not eternal because if it was, all of the energy and 'orderedness' in the universe would already have been used up and dissolved at some inexplicable point in time, so to speak. It would be cold and lifeless. We could not exist.

Entropy is referred to as 'the arrow of time.' A kind of Zelda-ish sounding name.

The Universe is not a closed thermodynamic system so entropy and heat death are not relevant.

The Universe is infinite in distance and duration and finite in its construction possibilities, so that everything which can exist must exist and infinite number of times and do so in every moment of time.

paradigm

I was under the impression the second law of thermodynamics was a statistical thing. There is no physical reason a closed system can't move from a high entropy state to a low entropy state. It's just unlikely. Therefore in any closed system (such as the universe) existing for an infinite time, it's inevitable that it will periodically revert to a low entropy state capable of sustaining life.

What makes you think that the Universe is a closed system?

paradigm

Because we haven't found evidence pointing it's open.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Because we haven't found evidence pointing it's open.

We've also never found a boundary line that stuck. Every conception of "The Universe" we've ever had turned out to be a minuscule fraction of a much larger system. But hey, I'm sure we've nailed it this time. And there must really be a final boundary. Cuz, you know.

Cuz.

In practical terms, either the universe receives energy from an external source, or it doesn't. Until evidence supporting the positive claim is observed, there's no reason to assume it's true, by default we assume that it's false...

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Because we haven't found evidence pointing it's open.

And there is no evidence that it's a closed system, so we can also assume that it's an open system.

paradigm

E = mc2

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Einstein and a couple dozen other dudes would care to pick a bone with you there, Paradigm. Remember the "matter is not created nor destroyed" bit? Never proven wrong, and it has EVIDENCE for its truth, providing EVIDENCE for a closed system. Pardon my caps, I'm too lazy to use italics.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Einstein and a couple dozen other dudes would care to pick a bone with you there, Paradigm. Remember the "matter is not created nor destroyed" bit? Never proven wrong, and it has EVIDENCE for its truth, providing EVIDENCE for a closed system. Pardon my caps, I'm too lazy to use italics.

Well, what if it's coming from somewhere else where Einstein's physics don't apply?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Einstein and a couple dozen other dudes would care to pick a bone with you there, Paradigm. Remember the "matter is not created nor destroyed" bit? Never proven wrong, and it has EVIDENCE for its truth, providing EVIDENCE for a closed system. Pardon my caps, I'm too lazy to use italics.

So, what is this EVIDENCE?

paradigm

The fact we really haven't been able to disprove it. Save for totally extreme conditions where we have not been able to collect data (such as black holes), we've never created nor destroyed matter without doing the inverse to energy in exactly the same proportions. Until disproven, we cannot assume the alternative is true.

Originally Posted by paradigm

And there is no evidence that it's a closed system, so we can also assume that it's an open system.

paradigm

Logic doesn't work like that. (You don't assume an asteroid is hitting Earth tomorrow just because there's no evidence saying it won't.)

It's impossible to prove the universe is closed (it's impossible to prove a negative), but it should be possible to prove the universe is open. The burden of proof always lies on the positive claim.

A system is closed if there's the absence of the properties of an open system, ie: the system doesn't experience losses or gains of energy to/from the outside. Until we observe such energy exchanges, the logical assumption is that the reason we don't observe them is because they don't happen.

I myself have the beleif that God created the universe and every thing inside of it. I read these comments and replies of those who do not believe in God, and see that your points are very valid and worth considering when deciding in what you think to be the origin of the universe. But to those who say that those who try to prove evolution fake are hypocrites because if nothing cannot make somthing, then where did our God come from? My answer is that our God is supernatural, and above that which he creates and controls. And to back my theroy of creation, how does one explain the excessive amounts of intelligent design we see around us. How could all we know, see, and love be created by random chance? Second, when it comes to the actual process of natural selection, how come there has not been the discovery of any of the missing links that are vital to the evolution theory?

I respect yall's points and thoughts, for many of them are definatly deeply thought of and logical. I ask that you respect my veiws and i will try to answer any questions that you might have towards my comment. (keep in mind im a junior in highschool, not a scientist. I will answer you the best I can.)

Originally Posted by Texan123

I myself have the beleif that God created the universe and every thing inside of it. I read these comments and replies of those who do not believe in God, and see that your points are very valid and worth considering when deciding in what you think to be the origin of the universe. But to those who say that those who try to prove evolution fake are hypocrites because if nothing cannot make somthing, then where did our God come from? My answer is that our God is supernatural, and above that which he creates and controls.

Pushing something out into the supernatural realm isn't an answer. We still have no real indication of how it [God] came to be, what it's like, and how it controls the universe it allegedly created. The same goes for anything else claimed to be explained by appeals to the supernatural. What is supernatural? How can we even know about such things?

And to back my theroy of creation, how does one explain the excessive amounts of intelligent design we see around us. How could all we know, see, and love be created by random chance?

By understanding that, as I said about, appeals to the supernatural are non-answers, as well as understanding that if you understand the laws of physics and chemistry and add billions of years, statistically, life, or at least complex things, will be an inevitability.

Second, when it comes to the actual process of natural selection, how come there has not been the discovery of any of the missing links that are vital to the evolution theory?

The evolutionary tree of life is full of connections/"links" from all sorts of species to their antecedents as well as their descendents. It is by no means a perfect picture, but the "missing link" argument is really a dead end.

Ultimately though, it still comes down to basic absurdism. There's not a real reason for anything. The answer to primary causality is not why, but why not.

I like to thing that our universe is a membrane and that our Membrane contacts another such that enough force is provided to create another big bang and that it is cyclical and infinite.

I don't think I truly believe that or have evidence for it, it's just fun to think.

When it comes to the supernatural, In a case like my Christian God, He is a force unlike any. My God has always been and always will be. We cannot explain that. And just because somthing appeals to the supernatural, does not mean it is not an answer. Surely you can see the intelligent design around us. How can all this be created by GOOD mutations from one organism into a completely different organism when good mutations in themselves are extremely rare.

Yep, you're a Texan.