Yes, if I do the freeze still method when I'm not yet sleepy, it just end up keeping me awake for hours. Then if I stop, I fall asleep quickly. This happens to ALL of us. I've personally found that I should wait till I'm sleepy. The more I'm sleepy, the less uncomfortable I would get when deciding to stay stable to do the dive. If I'm sleepy enough, I would not get any uncomfortability . But, if I'm that sleepy, I might lose lucidity and fall into regular sleep. I personally keep rolling and moving and trying to notice if I'm ready for a clean dive. What I do is when I become sleepy, I do the stay stable tech. I would know if the dive is happening or not. With practice you'll know when you're approaching a dream. Now, during the dive, if I start getting this strong urge to move, I just stop the dive and move. I wait till I'm more sleepy, then do it again. And so on until it works, or until I accidentally fall asleep regularly, which then I would rely on that MILD thing I said before.
Well yeah o/c you gotta be cool and calm. I remember when I wouldn't be able to WILD bcz I would be excited and not able to fall asleep.
Seriously I'm not sure about this message thing. What I know is that when I'm sleepy enough, I try to stay stable when I want to fall under. I mean, o/c moving will push you up again, wake you up, but as I said, when I'm sleepy enough, I do the dive easily and with barely any uncomfortability. O/c it takes practice for you to reach a level like I am where you can stay aware when you're that sleepy. So really for me, it's about waiting for the right moment where I'm sleepy enough, and then start visualizing and so on WHILE staying lucid. Now I'm not a pro, but I've been training my WILD for over a year, so I can stay aware during this sleepy phase much more than before.
I think that maybe, MAYBE, when I'm that sleepy that I'm ready for my own dive, I would have already passed the 'brain message testing' line. I mean, think about it. Most people would have fallen asleep at that point. Maybe bcz I visualize a bit before the dive and I am capable of staying aware and lucid, while allowing myself to move and whatever like I would naturally do during regular sleeping, that makes me pass the messaging phase before I do the staying stable thing (notice I use stable, bcz o/c even if you passed that messaging phase, you still can't just move so much or you'll wake yourself up). Who said that you should start the dive before passing the messaging phase? I can do a 'primitive dive' (which is staying aware but not as much as wilding as it is to just focusing on visualization for example and getting lost off your body while staying aware)before you pass the messaging phase (o/c again this takes practice though). Then, after that, do the regular dive.
I mean, I manage to do the primitive dive just fine while allowing myself to move. Allowing myself to become sleepy enough allows me to finally pass the messaging phase easily.
I mean, even if before you pass the messaging phase and moving would wake you up a little, and it would take time to become sleepy enough to pass the messaging phase (notice that here you're trying to start visualizing, getting lost off your body, and passing through the messaging phase when you become sleepy enough. And then suddenly the dream starts to form, which makes you know you passed the messaging phase and you're asleep now)...where was I? Oh yeah, even if moving wakes you up a bit and it would be take time to reach sleepiness, it's much better than trying to stay still and not get sleepy then reaching the messaging phase and not being able to pass it.
I should mention though that wild is at all not about sleep paralysis. You don't try to get SP to be able to WILD. You can do the dive perfectly fine without ever reaching for SP. On the contrary, SP might just distract and annoy you which would might kick you right out the dive.
I'm not talking out of my own thoughts. Almost all teachers here in dreamviews and in other good websites and sources say this. This "you need SP to WILD" is just a myth.
So yeah, staying still at the start of sleeping is at the extreme of the balance for me. It keeps me awake. I can't deal with the messaging phase at that point. So, I get sleepier until it becomes easier to pass the messaging phase. Like you said, find the right balance. O/c during this I would visualize and get lost off my body while staying aware and lucid.
But I think we might need to think about something:
_Would a LD be more lucid and aware if we do the WILD early? Meaning doing the dive before we become so sleepy? Because then we would have sneaked in more awareness opposed to wilding while being more sleepy I think.
_Can we pull this off? I mean, there's no way I can do it now. I just can't fall asleep with that annoying uncomfortability. But, would it become easier to ignore or deal with that uncomfortability with more practice? I mean, if we can manage to easily get lost in visualization and being lost off our bodies early on (while keeping aware and lucid o/c), would that make it easier to pass through the messaging phase while not needing to become very sleepy, and thus pulling a more aware lucid dream? I think so.
Hmmmm......
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