WILD - To Move or Not To Move

[kingofhypocrites]

I've had only limited success doing WILD's. I have studied many techniques and there seems to be three different schools of thought regarding how to achieve them in regards to the amount of movement. 1) Get in a position and stay completely still. Don't move at all and resist the urge to roll over. The body sends test signals to see if you are awake. The body and mind are independent. The body doesn't know if the mind is actually asleep. If you resist the urge long enough, you body is tricked and falls asleep while your mind remains aware. Note: This has rarely if ever worked for me. Maybe because I have back and muscle pain chronically, but staying still for a long period of time is very uncomfortable. I have laid still for very long periods of time and think this technique must only work well for those who can relax easily and stay relaxed in a single position. I have read many other accounts that say the same and have attempted this approach many times. 2) Move as much as you like. After all you are trying to fall asleep.. why would you do something unnatural that will keep you awake? Just move as much as you need until you are comfortable and focus on falling asleep. The key here is a mental anchor to keep your mind alert... whether it be counting or focusing on a noise in the background, moving a finger, etc. Note: This has worked for me a couple times but very often I fall asleep. Even when I use an anchor, my mind tends to wander and poof I am asleep. 3) Sort of a variation of 1 and 2... You should shift two or three times after several minutes in each position until you find that final spot where you are totally relaxed and almost asleep. Then focus on your mental anchor while trying to keep your mind alert. I won't focus too much on this because it is very similar to number 2. So what's my point?? Techniques 1 and 2 are a bit at odds with each other. If we are trying to fall asleep, why would we ever do something like number 1 if it were uncomfortable? This technique only makes sense if the test signals between the mind and body are a real thing. Do we know this for sure? I have yet to see any evidence. I know for myself I have laid perfectly still for an hour or two, probably even as long as 3 or 4 hours with no affect at all. I have attempted this may times. Why do I think this is? Because it is uncomfortable and who can fall asleep when they are uncomfortable? If anyone has seen the lucidology videos, the guy swears by this theory. He says even if it's agonizing just ignore it and then SP will come. But, this doesn't work for so many people... Why? Maybe because this theory is wrong. I don't know. It's ironic that it's vital that you be relaxed for it to work, yet you sit in a position for long periods of time all while making yourself totally uncomfortable and not relaxed. I see this technique posted a lot and obviously it works for many. Which brings me to technique number 2. So this sounded like the answer for me after so many failed attempts at the lie frozen still approach.. It made so much sense. Just do what you normally do to fall asleep. I got to be comfortable. I even managed to fall sleep... too much and that is the problem. I'm trying to figure out how technique 1 and 2 compliment each other. Is technique 1 really a trick and nothing to do with technique 2... Does it rely on that discomfort to stay alert or does it only work for those who do well in a single position for long periods of time? I mean think about it... Why do I have to lie perfectly still in the first position I lay in? Why can't I just keep moving until I am totally comfortable. Even though it's not stated, it seems to rely on the idea of "being uncomfortable"... Feeling an urge to move and then ignoring it. Let me summarize: Technique 1 only makes sense if there really is a test signal and you are tricking he body into falling asleep... Or the discomfort of the position promotes alertness. Share your theory on why this works... Why you think it makes sense to do anything different with your body whatsoever then what you would to fall asleep normally? Techniques 2 and 3 make sense from a falling asleep standpoint but rely solely on keeping the mind alert. They don't trick the body into falling asleep per se and rely solely on mental focus. If this works for you, what type of anchor do you use? Nothing I have tried works well.

[LouaiB]

I'll explain MY thoughts and uproach: •I can't kfall asleep while being uncomfortable so much, which I would be if I stay still like (1). •I sleep allowing myself to keep moving and rolling and so on. •I've noticed that when I move though, I kinda lose where I was in the WILD dive. •But it's not like starting over again. I continuously get more and more sleepy because I'm allowing myself to be comfortable. •I can do (1) easily if I'm sleepy enough. •SO, I lie down and move as I like until when I'm really sleepy, I try to actually stay stable and imagine the dream. The sense of uncomfortability would pass quickly, if it even comes ever so slightly, because at this point I would be very sleepy, and then the dream would form. •Even though this makes the dive much easier and be able to stay stable with little uncomfortability, you still need to have WILD experience to be able to stay conscious. I mean of course, you are still WILDing after all. I might slightly anchor, but my main way is to start visualizing the dream and focusing on touch sense. This keeps me aware and stay lucid since I know I'm focusing on a dream sensation that'll show up any moment. So, for example, after I have lied down and got sleepy, and I do roll over a lot during this, and maybe had a little fun visualizing my dream goal, I would notice when I'm sleepy enough, so I take a comfortable position, and start visualizing the dream I want to form now, focusing on touch bcz it's the strongest for me when the dream starts to form and it 'summons' quickly. For example, I would imagine kissing a girl. I would focus on the sense of the kiss. This also helps distract me from any uncomfortability that may show up. I should note that if you are a meditator, it would make this much easier too since you can be focused better. Then, o/c, either I succeed and the dream would start forming with me getting more and more 'inside' it until I'm fully in (and at this point fallen asleep o/c), or fail by means of getting alert to the outside world, getting uncomfortable, or losing my awareness during the dive and fall asleep regularly. O/c with more meditation training and WILD experience (failed WILDs give awareness experience too o/c), these problems would be less and less frequent. Here's a backup trick I always use though. I mix MILD with this. I place the intention to notice when the dream has formed, so in case I lose lucidity during the dive, I end up becoming lucid when the regular dream forms a few minutes later (the intention would be still fresh so it would easily work). In fact, most of my wilds are this form of wild/mild thing. I should mention too that long wbtbs, like 2 hours long, really help me bcz I would be more aware, more than I would when I become sleepy after a short wbtb. O/c being more aware doesn't mean being less sleepy and less likely to fall asleep. It just means you'll be more awake while your body is falling asleep and the dream is forming

[kingofhypocrites]

Thanks for the reply. My approach has more and more moved towards exactly what you described. I indeed get more sleepy with each shift as you said because I am more comfortable. Also I don't have the anxiety of feeling fixed in one position and the discomfort that comes with it (which brings even more anxiety). I think the rollover theory seems flawed. I mean if I move a few times and suddenly I am totally comfortable, the body decides that it no longer needs to test to see if I am awake by sending more rollover signals? Maybe my eyes aren't relaxed enough. He also talks about eye micro-movements in his videos. I also think the wording 'rollover signal' is misleading. I almost never sleep on my side, so I am pretty sure I don't get rollover signals to sleep on my side. If I do I am oblivious to them and they would seem illogical since I find this position uncomfortable. I think if such a signal exists it is more of a "urge to move signal". Oddly enough the guy from the lucidology videos who proposed this technique later says in his FAQ that the easiest way to reach SP (and eventually a WILD) is to use the timer and keep waking up over and over without moving. He attributes it to hypnotic fractionation. This is much much easier (in my opinion) than attempting it from an totally awake state. Since then I have seen many people pose this technique as their own (minus important details) and not sure how many people it actually works for. Telling everyone lay down and just stay still and leaving it at that I am sure has left many people lost. Back to the lucidology videos again... I find it ironic because if ignoring the signals is such a cut and dry thing then why do you need the timer... Well if you listen closely he makes often mentions about being relaxed enough and hence you have your conundrum.... How does one relax when they feel the urge to move. I think WILD's are not just about a relaxed body but also a relaxed mind. Furthermore, when we are anxious I think it is pretty much impossible to WILD. Being uncomfortable will certainly make you anxious. Also I think letting the mind drift a bit and become more relaxed allows us to pay less attention to our body and helps it to relax naturally. This is probably because of the introduction of Alpha waves as we quiet our mind, but it may be a combination of the two. These are things I am concluding on my own, so maybe I am wrong, but I am working on a theory of how all the various techniques fit together. The only time I think the frozen still approach works for me is if I just wake up and I'm still half asleep... It works like a charm in this case because the lack of movement prevents me from waking up all the way. This would point back to the timer method since it relies on the same concept... It is also the same exact thing you would do for a DEILD. Other than that it has worked maybe 2 or 3 times. As for my continued practice... I feel like erring on the side of falling asleep seems like less of a failure than staying awake for hours. I am going to continue practicing teetering that balance. One last food for thought... How many times have you tried to keep your mind awake waiting for something to happen... Then you give up and fall asleep a minute later? Trying to stay conscious obviously keeps us awake... Seems so obvious right? Why state the obvious you say? Because with the frozen still approach we seem to think it's all about the body not moving... yet the mind clearly how the power to keep us awake (and by awake I mean not entering the WILD or achieving anything whatsoever). Maybe my targeting of REM periods is off, but I have been practicing all different intervals.

[LouaiB]

Yes, if I do the freeze still method when I'm not yet sleepy, it just end up keeping me awake for hours. Then if I stop, I fall asleep quickly. This happens to ALL of us. I've personally found that I should wait till I'm sleepy. The more I'm sleepy, the less uncomfortable I would get when deciding to stay stable to do the dive. If I'm sleepy enough, I would not get any uncomfortability . But, if I'm that sleepy, I might lose lucidity and fall into regular sleep. I personally keep rolling and moving and trying to notice if I'm ready for a clean dive. What I do is when I become sleepy, I do the stay stable tech. I would know if the dive is happening or not. With practice you'll know when you're approaching a dream. Now, during the dive, if I start getting this strong urge to move, I just stop the dive and move. I wait till I'm more sleepy, then do it again. And so on until it works, or until I accidentally fall asleep regularly, which then I would rely on that MILD thing I said before. Well yeah o/c you gotta be cool and calm. I remember when I wouldn't be able to WILD bcz I would be excited and not able to fall asleep. Seriously I'm not sure about this message thing. What I know is that when I'm sleepy enough, I try to stay stable when I want to fall under. I mean, o/c moving will push you up again, wake you up, but as I said, when I'm sleepy enough, I do the dive easily and with barely any uncomfortability. O/c it takes practice for you to reach a level like I am where you can stay aware when you're that sleepy. So really for me, it's about waiting for the right moment where I'm sleepy enough, and then start visualizing and so on WHILE staying lucid. Now I'm not a pro, but I've been training my WILD for over a year, so I can stay aware during this sleepy phase much more than before. I think that maybe, MAYBE, when I'm that sleepy that I'm ready for my own dive, I would have already passed the 'brain message testing' line. I mean, think about it. Most people would have fallen asleep at that point. Maybe bcz I visualize a bit before the dive and I am capable of staying aware and lucid, while allowing myself to move and whatever like I would naturally do during regular sleeping, that makes me pass the messaging phase before I do the staying stable thing (notice I use stable, bcz o/c even if you passed that messaging phase, you still can't just move so much or you'll wake yourself up). Who said that you should start the dive before passing the messaging phase? I can do a 'primitive dive' (which is staying aware but not as much as wilding as it is to just focusing on visualization for example and getting lost off your body while staying aware)before you pass the messaging phase (o/c again this takes practice though). Then, after that, do the regular dive. I mean, I manage to do the primitive dive just fine while allowing myself to move. Allowing myself to become sleepy enough allows me to finally pass the messaging phase easily. I mean, even if before you pass the messaging phase and moving would wake you up a little, and it would take time to become sleepy enough to pass the messaging phase (notice that here you're trying to start visualizing, getting lost off your body, and passing through the messaging phase when you become sleepy enough. And then suddenly the dream starts to form, which makes you know you passed the messaging phase and you're asleep now)...where was I? Oh yeah, even if moving wakes you up a bit and it would be take time to reach sleepiness, it's much better than trying to stay still and not get sleepy then reaching the messaging phase and not being able to pass it. I should mention though that wild is at all not about sleep paralysis. You don't try to get SP to be able to WILD. You can do the dive perfectly fine without ever reaching for SP. On the contrary, SP might just distract and annoy you which would might kick you right out the dive. I'm not talking out of my own thoughts. Almost all teachers here in dreamviews and in other good websites and sources say this. This "you need SP to WILD" is just a myth. So yeah, staying still at the start of sleeping is at the extreme of the balance for me. It keeps me awake. I can't deal with the messaging phase at that point. So, I get sleepier until it becomes easier to pass the messaging phase. Like you said, find the right balance. O/c during this I would visualize and get lost off my body while staying aware and lucid. But I think we might need to think about something: _Would a LD be more lucid and aware if we do the WILD early? Meaning doing the dive before we become so sleepy? Because then we would have sneaked in more awareness opposed to wilding while being more sleepy I think. _Can we pull this off? I mean, there's no way I can do it now. I just can't fall asleep with that annoying uncomfortability. But, would it become easier to ignore or deal with that uncomfortability with more practice? I mean, if we can manage to easily get lost in visualization and being lost off our bodies early on (while keeping aware and lucid o/c), would that make it easier to pass through the messaging phase while not needing to become very sleepy, and thus pulling a more aware lucid dream? I think so. Hmmmm......

[kingofhypocrites]

Again excellent post. I will clarify that my reference to SP was only in regards to the lucidology videos. I for one never experience SP (or notice it) when doing a WILD. The only thing that seems consistent for me is vibrations. I feel tingling going through my body (or some form of vibrations) and usually from there I can form a dream scene and step into it. If I feel the tingling all over I am pretty much almost guaranteed to have a WILD. The details of what I experience as a whole during this process get blurred for me as I often dream I am doing my inductions (i.e.: i have actual dreams I am performing a WILD). I have often wondered about the clarity of WILD's vs. other induction types and (as you say) it would also be interesting to know if the clarity of a WILD would differ if you weren't as sleepy upon initiation. People say WILD's are move vivid, but I don't really find this to be true. I have had some incredibly vivid DILDs (so much so that at least visually I think it would have to surpass waking life to become any more vivid...some people use the concept as more pixels as an analogy of how this could be possible). I have also done WILDs that ended me up in dark places or where the clarity was sub-par. Being that I think it's possible to fall asleep right before a WILD is completed and go right into a DILD, it is hard to say for sure. I have also heard it said that you have perfect dream recall during a WILD and that it equals the same memory recall you would have in waking life. I do not find this to be true either. Maybe this is true for the guy in the lucidology videos because he swears it's 100% perfect recall. I also wonder if initiating it from SP has any affect (this somewhat points back to what you were saying as well). I've heard it said that you always experience SP but for some people they have moved into the visual process and have lost awareness of their body altogether. To my knowledge I have only had waking sleep paralysis once. I was able to open my eyes and look around my room but I didn't see anything other than what was physically there, but couldn't move otherwise. It had nothing to do with a WILD attempt though. You have an interesting theory about the movement signal... being tired enough where you can ignore the signal successfully. I will pay closer attention when I am really drowsy to see if there is indeed a movement signal that I am suppressing. I feel like I get the urge to move simply because I'm uncomfortable but maybe I am wrong. I even tried posting in a biology forum to see if it's possible that the mind and body are really independent and I was told this is totally wrong. Maybe because technically from a brain wave perspective you are asleep. Certainly the scientific community accepts the mind can be awake while the body is asleep or how else do they explain waking sleep paralysis and other REM disorders.

[Verre]

I've never watched these lucidology videos you're referring to, but it sounds like the guy has a very rigid technique. If there's one thing these forums can demonstrate clearly, it's that there is no "one size fits all" technique that works equally well for everybody, so I would be suspicious of anyone who claims otherwise. From what I've seen, we all end up devising our own homebrew of techniques that, for whatever reason, work best for us. I've had dozens of successful WILDs over the years, but the process still remains mysterious to me. I've never been able to figure out why some attempts work and some attempts don't, but it seems like technique isn't the only factor. Sometimes an attempt seems very favorable, and I use all the techniques that have worked best for me in the past, and nothing happens. Other times I'm lazy and barely put in a half-assed effort, and have a great success. So there's something else at play, and I'm not sure what. "To move or not to move" was something I wondered about for a long time, but in the long run it never seemed to matter much. My best WILD attempts occur when I can relax my body really effectively while keeping my mind really alert, and somehow fall asleep with that disjunction still in play (that's the tricky part). I'm not sure if moving or not moving makes much difference, since at worst moving will just delay the process of falling asleep... but as you've pointed out, not moving can also delay sleep if you feel uncomfortable. However, I find that delaying sleep for at least a little while is helpful, because it seems to help condition my mind to preserve that necessary spark of waking awareness. If I had to boil down my WILD technique to the basics, it would look something like this: after a few hours of sleep, WBTB long enough to get your mind active, ideally reading or writing about dreaming (recording DJ entries is ideal, if you've dreamed earlier in the night) and set a strong intention to LD. On returning to bed, first lie down in a position that you don't normally sleep in, and relax the body as much as possible while keeping the mind active through counting or some other type of sustained mental focus. At this point I'll usually start to drift toward sleep, which becomes very apparent while counting because I lose track of the numbers, but then something almost invariably restores me to wakefulness (I've never understood why). That's the point where I typically "give up," turn over to the position that I find most comfortable to sleep in, and just fall asleep without any more fuss. At first I was really giving up, but over time I discovered that this is the point where, if my attempt was successful, I'll once again become aware of lying in my bed, wonder if I'm awake or asleep, and cautiously explore the sense of movement until I'm sure I'm engaging the dream body and can "get up" out of bed into the dream. I seem to be locked into a schema where my WILDs always begin in a dream version of my own house—it's different from most WILD techniques where you enter the dream directly. I think perhaps my mind finds the transition easier to achieve if it is less drastic. So there's a description of an alternate WILD model that doesn't really worry about "to move or not to move," but focuses instead on achieving the right balance between mental and physical states. In the end I don't think moving or not moving matters either way, what you've got to figure out is what pattern of activities will help you fall asleep while preserving that little flicker of waking awareness in your mind.

[cmind]

OP: School of thought #1 is just plain wrong and can be dismissed immediately. No serious, active members of the lucid dreaming community actually believe that anymore. As for the second two schools of thought: The basic idea is that you need to fall asleep. There is no mind/body duality. The body and mind are one, and fall asleep together. The purpose of the "anchor" is to prepare your consciousness to pass through the veil without being completely obliterated. But you must be prepared to sacrifice some amount of awareness in order to make the transition. The trick is to maintain the smallest possible kernel of consciousness that can be re-expanded into something resembling your waking consciousness on the other side.

[Sageous]

^^ What he said.

[LouaiB]

OP: School of thought #1 is just plain wrong and can be dismissed immediately. No serious, active members of the lucid dreaming community actually believe that anymore. As for the second two schools of thought: The basic idea is that you need to fall asleep. There is no mind/body duality. The body and mind are one, and fall asleep together. The purpose of the "anchor" is to prepare your consciousness to pass through the veil without being completely obliterated. But you must be prepared to sacrifice some amount of awareness in order to make the transition. The trick is to maintain the smallest possible kernel of consciousness that can be re-expanded into something resembling your waking consciousness on the other side. So, does this mean that I wouldn't be self aware so much during the dive, and only after I have fallen asleep, my little self awareness will keep me lucid THEN I become fully lucid when the LD starts because I 'resummon' what self awareness I lost? Is it like I wouldn't be able to fall asleep if I am fully self aware? So it's not about hanging until the body falls asleep, it's also about the mind needing to fall asleep too so I can fall asleep, but the trick is to sneak in a little self awareness so I'd have a lucid dream instead of a NLD?

[cmind]

So, does this mean that I wouldn't be self aware so much during the dive, and only after I have fallen asleep, my little self awareness will keep me lucid THEN I become fully lucid when the LD starts because I 'resummon' what self awareness I lost? Is it like I wouldn't be able to fall asleep if I am fully self aware? So it's not about hanging until the body falls asleep, it's also about the mind needing to fall asleep too so I can fall asleep, but the trick is to sneak in a little self awareness so I'd have a lucid dream instead of a NLD? Sounds about right.