Thread: Watch Reality-Check - taking the opportunity !

Reality checking for a specific cue can't be stressed enough: eventually whenever that cue shows up, it's a free lucid. It's always a win
Random reality checking is good if it becomes an habit, but you can't rely on it so much, because it's all about chance, without any external cue to help you.

Originally Posted by Zoth

Reality checking for a specific cue can't be stressed enough: eventually whenever that cue shows up, it's a free lucid. It's always a win
Random reality checking is good if it becomes an habit, but you can't rely on it so much, because it's all about chance, without any external cue to help you.

I see your point..i don´t imagine a real need to check time in a dream..do you have an idea what cue we could use ?

I see also the opportunity to raise awareness and yes, create an habit..but if we can couple it with an external cue all the better

Oh sorry, when I meant external cue, I was talking about something like a dreamsign. Even if you don't have common dreamsigns, you can always pick an universal dreamsign: feeling anxious/fear for example.´

I guess if you're looking for really external cues, you could always try the classical "inception music" after a WBTB to land in a REM? I saw people achieving lucidity with this, you need to be very careful with the volume. Or just get a NovaDreamer, that would help too

Hehe, funny that i understood you well, didn´t think about any external stimuli at all

Fear, anxiety..probably i would get exhausted during the day ( usually don´t have the real ones also )

..phisiological needs not very common in dreams..this ain´t also..maybe strange looking people ?

Well, when I thought about the DIPE system (Displacement, Irregularities, People, Emotions), I thought it could work as external cues by itself. But after I gave it a thought, I realized that during a dream it's very hard to actually notice any of these but Emotions. You might even be completely automated to reality check after you transition/show up/leave in a new place, or find something strange, but if you don't notice these, the response won't kick in. Regarding to People, it works just as good as Emotions, but only if the specific person shows up (sometimes it's kinda hard).

Emotions have the advantage of being a almost constant component of every person's dreams: reports show elements of anxiety/fear in more than 60% of dreams. As you're probably thinking, one still has to be used to monitor their progress, but I'd say it would be the most effective reality check based on cue. The problem is that you can't pinpoint exactly a trace of anxiety/fear in every dream you have: If I'm dreaming about finding my car keys, I might even be a little anxious, but the sense of urgency (which may not perceived as emotionally relevant) is what's keeping me focused.

I guess we can always keep using recurring dream signs

I am not aware of your DIPES idea, unfortunately, but it seems to be systematization of dreamsigns categories ?

We could think of two groups of dreamsigns, based on their recognition:

Some dreamsigns we can search for and some deamsigns we can be ready to notice when they show up.
One kind involves an outward active awareness, the other a more inward passive awareness. A mix of these two would be great, i think.
For instance searching for oddities in people's appearance or behaviour ( active ) and noticing emotions and feelings ( passive ). Ok, this is a generalization, not even sure if i can use these words.

I guess we can always keep using recurring dream signs

Oh really ? If we had a reliable one..

Oh really ? If we had a reliable one..

(I do xD If it wasn't for the constant interruption in practice, I could use the fact that my cats or my sister show up in at least 1 dream per night to some good use they - my cats - even pop randomly in my lucid dreams, and this started since the very first one!)

I am not aware of your DIPES idea, unfortunately, but it seems to be systematization of dreamsigns categories ?

Pretty much that yes. Like I explain in this post it's a way of essentially combining what I consider to be the main 4 dreamsign categories into a single system. You will no longer be performing reality checks depending on each dreamsign, but on everything that fits into these categories. DIPE takes some time to put into practice as you can see though.

Some dreamsigns we can search for and some deamsigns we can be ready to notice when they show up.

I agree with that categorization, but can't help but wonder: is it efficient to train ourselves to look for dream signs? It seems much better to create a habit of reality checking out of the blue than to look for dreamsigns out of the blue wouldn't you agree ?

One kind involves an outward active awareness, the other a more inward passive awareness. A mix of these two would be great, i think.
For instance searching for oddities in people's appearance or behaviour ( active )

That falls under the same problem in most DIPE categories: dream oddities are everywhere, we just never react to them. You can think logically of how you have to run in order to avoid a dragon's fire breath, but you never stop to think that dragons don't exist. This memory/thinking impairment confuses me so much lol, I can't make sense of it.~

PS: zoth needs to stop posting replies when he's not done thinking about the subject xD

Edit: you know that there's a way of developing habits based on existing ones? Like if you want to create the habit of flossing, you put the floss next to your toothbrush, so that every time you're done brushing your teeth, you floss because it's just next to it, making it harder to justify to yourself not doing it. Wonder if we could make this for dreamsigns/reality checks.

I agree with that categorization, but can't help but wonder: is it efficient to train ourselves to look for dream signs? It seems much better to create a habit of reality checking out of the blue than to look for dreamsigns out of the blue wouldn't you agree ?

The importance of searching for dreamsigns while awake, i think, is mostly to facilitate its recognition. That makes sense to me. EWOLD also states that it's fine to search for dreamsigns, but i think it is for another reason: mostly for the sake of testing reality ( which, as you probably think, doesn´t seem to be superior to another RC). If it were the only reason, i would agree with you. Now, i think i think it´s specially useful to reinforce your intention to notice dreamsigns. That's why i do it. Both as RC and a dreamsign strategy.

Ohhh! Yeah, I get what you mean now. Funny how it didn't make sense at first (I was about to say "you're missing my point"), but after a 2nd read I understand and agree with your idea What you're talking about is the Zeigarnik effect!
(Damn, that's a brilliant idea, I'm kinda jealous )

You could even recreate a scenario to intensify the Zeigarnik Effect even more:

- Every day, spot your dream sign at least 20 times. Keep doing this for a week until you get used, and keep stressing yourself the "all or nothing" importance of spotting it all 20 times!
- In the 8th day, purposely place yourself in a situation where you will only spot your dream sign about 19 times (like closing yourself in your room if we're talking for example of your cat), and go to bed deciding you will find your dream sign for the 20th time.

How does this sound ?

PS: might the Zeigarnik Effect be one of the reasons we have false awakenings?

Edit: you know that there's a way of developing habits based on existing ones? Like if you want to create the habit of flossing, you put the floss next to your toothbrush, so that every time you're done brushing your teeth, you floss because it's just next to it, making it harder to justify to yourself not doing it. Wonder if we could make this for dreamsigns/reality checks.

Hehe, i actually use the floss before so that the toothpaste reaches deeper in gums

we could put a label on our watch or wrist i don't use glasses but i would put some letter on them, like A ( awake). Could that work ?

More ideas ?

Originally Posted by Zoth

Ohhh! Yeah, I get what you mean now. Funny how it didn't make sense at first (I was about to say "you're missing my point"), but after a 2nd read I understand and agree with your idea What you're talking about is the Zeigarnik effect!
(Damn, that's a brilliant idea, I'm kinda jealous )

You could even recreate a scenario to intensify the Zeigarnik Effect even more:

- Every day, spot your dream sign at least 20 times. Keep doing this for a week until you get used, and keep stressing yourself the "all or nothing" importance of spotting it all 20 times!
- In the 8th day, purposely place yourself in a situation where you will only spot your dream sign about 19 times (like closing yourself in your room if we're talking for example of your cat), and go to bed deciding you will find your dream sign for the 20th time.

How does this sound ?

PS: might the Zeigarnik Effect be one of the reasons we have false awakenings?

Gotta check that Zeigarnik Effect !

It does sound great in theory, if you can catch it in your dream. Now imagine if your cat doesn´t show up

Hmm feel free to expand on that false awakening thought if you wish..

It does sound great in theory, if you can catch it in your dream. Now imagine if your cat doesn´t show up

That's the point: it doesn't rely on the dreamsign

The Zeigarnik Effect is the tendency to experience intrusive thoughts about an objective that was once pursued and left incomplete (Baumeister & Bushman, 2008, pg. 122). The automatic system signals the conscious mind, which may be focused on new goals, that a previous activity was left incomplete. It seems to be human nature to finish what we start and, if it is not finished, we experience dissonance.

See? It naturally kicks in if you don't complete your goal (either by distraction, or forgetting it, or moving to a new one). What could happen is you having a sense of urgency and looking for a cat or something you can't really define...which could trigger the response of reality check by itself ^^

Hmm feel free to expand on that false awakening thought if you wish..

First of all, it wouldn't explain many false awakenings (especially those mid-lucid dream). But in those cases where you get false awakenings due the nervousness of an event the next day, or when you're nervous about something when you go to bed, you could theoretically fall into false awakenings because you feel like you need to complete something. These "intrusive thoughts" would kick in, and you'd experience a false awakening as the brain attempting to prevent you from waking up.

Now that I recall, Daniel Love (the creator of the CAT technique - not a pun ) also created a technique based on the Zeigarnik Effect (or that at least resembles it a lot) in order to induce false awakenings.

Originally Posted by Zoth

That's the point: it doesn't rely on the dreamsign

yeah, i see, that was just me trying to make a joke ! yes, it would be a great experiment. Now it doesn´t even need to be a dreamsign, right ? any task is good ?

Now that I recall, Daniel Love (the creator of the CAT technique - not a pun ) also created a technique based on the Zeigarnik Effect (or that at least resembles it a lot) in order to induce false awakenings.

Wow, very funny indeed how the cat keeps showing up

Yeah, i think we could devise a little experiment..

Edit: lol, it seems i have already suggested to search for dreamsigns, is that good VagalTone ?

See? It naturally kicks in if you don't complete your goal (either by distraction, or forgetting it, or moving to a new one). What could happen is you having a sense of urgency and looking for a cat or something you can't really define...which could trigger the response of reality check by itself ^^

Oh, i think if one carries that little bit of conscious intention into the dream, even if it is not a dreamy subject, it will be easier to get lucid. In Robert Waggoner's book he quotes a Tholey approach, about the tension of an unsolved problem. Unfortunately i can´t copy past here ( googlebooks is unavailable, copy paste from e-book gets disformated )