Thread: So you think you can't LD?

You have a very inspiring view of lucidity. Guess lucid living is what living's all about. I think I'll give it a go

I have written 'Awareness!' on the back of my hand red, so that it will almost always be in my peripherals.
This reminds me to be constantly aware of my surrounds and what reality is.
It sort of puts the awareness thought to one side in my mind and it will be there all day.

Nice Philosophy.

We must be totally in anything.

in eating, drinking, thinking, watching, singing..

when we try to be totally in a fact, I imagine my self ( all my body ) in that act?



Tonight A will get my first FULL LUCID CONTROLL VIVID DREAM.

yeah, it's lovely.
check "the power of now" and "tibetan yogas of dream and sleep"
great books!

Thanks Cloud, this helps me alot as recently I've been questioning whether or not I'll ever be able to Lucid Dream.

This thread should be stickied.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

This thread should be stickied.

seconded. This deserves to be stickied at least as much as any thread I've come across in my time at DV

when I first read through your post, I wanst quite sure what you were getting at. now, though, that I have taken the time to read and consider it, I know exactly what you're talking about. I finally get the Idea of lucid living. =t's not enough to try to be lucid during dreams. you must be lucid throughout all of your waking life. this is what the dream yogis meant, about realizing that reality is of the substabce of dreams (something like that). you go along with the various scenarios of your waking life, because you don't have the same level of control as in a dream.

This is all....a bit too confusing, for me at least. Like the part where you talked about Awareness/Detachment and knowing that you are dreaming.

Why do we need to know that we are dreaming? Well what's the difference? If we don't
know that we are Lucid Dreaming, how are we going to get into that Awareness affect?

I'm a struggling worker at the moment trying to achieve that Lucid feeling, but I know
what it's like to be Aware and "Know" that I'm dreaming, because I've had that in the past. Right after I did a simple RC, I "Knew" to that point I was dreaming and started to become aware. Perhaps your confusing the terms maybe just a bit?

Other than that, sadly, I never got to that Awareness/Detachment feeling you explained
lately, because the only time I'll remember me dreaming is right after I wake up and not Knowing
or in your own words "Awareness/Detachment" during the dream state.

Very good ClouD.

Agree with Slick. It looks interesting. But could you give more details about the, "Where do we go from here?" bit. Because, with great respect, it looks interesting but my general conclusion is that I haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by ClouD

+ Do you even know what lucidity is?
...

Simply put, lucidity is awareness/detachment.

+ This doesn't make sense, I thought lucid dreaming was knowing you are dreaming?

What does you 'knowing' you are dreaming do? It detaches you from the situation immediately, you suddenly have space to move, you are free.
You don't actually necessarily need to 'know' you are dreaming, that just usually automatically creates a space between you and the dream. Awareness/detachment is what lucidity really is.

I completely disagree. The word 'lucid' simply means 'aware', and lucidity means 'awareness'. But, in terms of lucid dreaming, the definition is that you are aware that you are dreaming. Yes, you can be 'lucid' or mentally aware in general in dreams, but unless you realize that it IS a dream, you are not lucid dreaming by definition. That is what the term means.

Of course there are different philosophical standpoints and etc. (ie what is real life, why isn't that just a dream, etc etc etc), but that depends on one's personal viewpoints. Awareness during waking life is distinct and separate from being lucid in your dreams (except that it can help you recognize you're dreaming). Awareness of the fact that you are dreaming is what makes you 'lucid' in a dream regardless of whatever else you're aware of- lucid of the fact that you're dreaming. I think you are talking about two different kinds of mental awareness during dreaming- being generally mentally aware, and being aware of the fact that you are dreaming- and using the term lucid for both. Though the terminology is accurate this is very confusing, because simply being lucid(aware mentally) in a dream doesn't make you 'lucid dreaming'. To be lucid dreaming, you must be aware that you are currently IN a dream.

I wouldn't throw detachment (I mean what is that referring to, anyway?) anywhere into that discussion, either. It's not really got anything to do with any of it. You don't have to be detached to be mentally aware in waking life, and you don't have to be detached to realize (be aware of the fact) that you're dreaming in a dream. It can help with your dream stabilization, and it can help you with dream control, but as far as actually realizing you are in a dream, it's not necessary to feel detached from the dream, only to observe that it isn't reality and you must be in a hallucination in your head while you sleep.

Overall this philosophical discussion isn't too terrible for people who already know what lucid dreams are and how to have them (though I think there is of a considerable difference between someone who is a natural DILDer and someone who is not), but I think for newbies' sake this is a very confusing and inaccurate way of presenting the concept of lucid dreaming and really a philosophical discussion, not something that belongs on the on-topic board debating the difference between dreams and reality.

The simple point is: if you aren't aware that you are dreaming, then you are not lucid dreaming, no matter how mentally lucid you are otherwise.

I think that he don't refers to the natural awareness. he refers to the detachment you have when you are lucid, when you know you are dreaming. I mean, I wants to say that when you know you are dreaming, you become aware and you become free.
because for example, one can have dreams of "dreaming of being lucid" and that's not lucidity. in those dreams, you "think" you know you are dreaming(you don't really know it) and so, you are not free from the dream. awareness in the dream state(KNOWING you are dreaming), lucidity, means freedom.

Then isn't is sufficient to just say 'when you realize you are in a dream (= are lucid dreaming) you can realize there is no reason for you not to have ultimate dream control since nothing (gravity, laws, etc.) actually exists to stop you?'.

Dream Control (freedom) =/= Lucidity.

As I've said before, I know you like to distinguish between your so-called 'false lucids' and etc. and lucid dreams, but as long as there is a conscious awareness of the fact that you're dreaming, you're lucid dreaming. Stating it unconsciously as a dream reflex, as you've said, doesn't count. But, neither does dream control, or any sense of fear or domination. People have lucid nightmares all the time. It has nothing to do with freedom.

Originally Posted by Shift

Then isn't is sufficient to just say 'when you realize you are in a dream (= are lucid dreaming) you can realize there is no reason for you not to have ultimate dream control since nothing (gravity, laws, etc.) actually exists to stop you?'.

Dream Control (freedom) =/= Lucidity.

As I've said before, I know you like to distinguish between your so-called 'false lucids' and etc. and lucid dreams, but as long as there is a conscious awareness of the fact that you're dreaming, you're lucid dreaming. Stating it unconsciously as a dream reflex, as you've said, doesn't count. But, neither does dream control, or any sense of fear or domination. People have lucid nightmares all the time. It has nothing to do with freedom.

I'm just quoting this because it's all completely true. Thanks Shift.

Originally Posted by Shift

I completely disagree. The word 'lucid' simply means 'aware', and lucidity means 'awareness'. But, in terms of lucid dreaming, the definition is that you are aware that you are dreaming. Yes, you can be 'lucid' or mentally aware in general in dreams, but unless you realize that it IS a dream, you are not lucid dreaming by definition. That is what the term means.

What is it that we are experiencing under that condition of being 'aware we are dreaming'? What is it that gives it the quality, what separates it from being just a non-lucid dream about lucid dreaming? The freedom of choice (which is what attracts the majority of people to lucid dreaming) comes from the space between you and the dream, that you are independent and detached, that is it's quality, and that quality of freedom can be achieved without the pseudo-knowledge that you are dreaming (and I say pseudo-knowledge because it can't really be known, just assumed). The detachment can be initiated by that pseudo-knowledge, but only indirectly. It's not a certain way to attain that clarity, many times people have crossed the idea that they are dreaming while in a dream and have missed it. Awareness of the 'pseudo-knowledge that you are dreaming' does not necessarily give the quality. You can still call it a lucid by definition, but that's not the point of being lucid for most, just to say that they have had a lucid dream. The fascination comes from the freedom of choice and control.

As an example, to be detached in waking life, you do not have to think that you are dreaming, you do not have to have that underlying feeling to be detached and to have that freedom to choose what thoughts/projections to follow (which is what I think dreams are -- just thought/projections).

Originally Posted by Shift

Of course there are different philosophical standpoints and etc. (ie what is real life, why isn't that just a dream, etc etc etc), but that depends on one's personal viewpoints. Awareness during waking life is distinct and separate from being lucid in your dreams (except that it can help you recognize you're dreaming). Awareness of the fact that you are dreaming is what makes you 'lucid' in a dream regardless of whatever else you're aware of- lucid of the fact that you're dreaming. I think you are talking about two different kinds of mental awareness during dreaming- being generally mentally aware, and being aware of the fact that you are dreaming- and using the term lucid for both. Though the terminology is accurate this is very confusing, because simply being lucid(aware mentally) in a dream doesn't make you 'lucid dreaming'. To be lucid dreaming, you must be aware that you are currently IN a dream.

Awareness in waking life carries over to dream, just as something like reality checking does, as well as desires etc. The difference with detachment/awareness is that it is an underlying quality; it is the utmost foundation. Just becoming a little more detached/aware in waking life will help dramatically with lucid dreaming, will help with reality checks, with auto-suggestion, with all indirect methods to attaining that clarity.

You're of course completely right in that according to definition it can't be called a lucid dream without the underlying 'knowledge', but surely you have had what you would call a 'lucid dream' where the question wasn't asked, nor even considered? I have, and I know from asking that there are also many others, almost any experienced lucid dreamer I've asked has said they have. 'Just becoming lucid' instead of actually knowing they were dreaming, or even having the realisation.

Originally Posted by Shift

I wouldn't throw detachment (I mean what is that referring to, anyway?) anywhere into that discussion, either. It's not really got anything to do with any of it. You don't have to be detached to be mentally aware in waking life, and you don't have to be detached to realize (be aware of the fact) that you're dreaming in a dream. It can help with your dream stabilization, and it can help you with dream control, but as far as actually realizing you are in a dream, it's not necessary to feel detached from the dream, only to observe that it isn't reality and you must be in a hallucination in your head while you sleep.

Detachment IS awareness, they are required for each other. I'm certainly not meaning to preach for some spiritualism.
Mental awareness requires detachment. If you are not detached from something, you cannot be aware of it, I relate the terms because they alone both carry different connotations, whereas together they paint a better picture imo.

Originally Posted by Shift

Overall this philosophical discussion isn't too terrible for people who already know what lucid dreams are and how to have them (though I think there is of a considerable difference between someone who is a natural DILDer and someone who is not), but I think for newbies' sake this is a very confusing and inaccurate way of presenting the concept of lucid dreaming and really a philosophical discussion, not something that belongs on the on-topic board debating the difference between dreams and reality.

The simple point is: if you aren't aware that you are dreaming, then you are not lucid dreaming, no matter how mentally lucid you are otherwise.

I really didn't and don't intend this to be a philosophical discussion. The point is not to debate the difference between dreams and reality, dreams are 'in your head' or at least produced by and for solely the individual, waking life involves both (assumed) objective reality and then the layers of thought and interpretation (both conscious and sub-conscious) upon that, which are what internally make up dreams.
The point is to get newbies to see what I understand of 'lucidity'. Yes, by definition not lucid dreams, but by the one-and-the-same quality, very much so. Knowledge that you are dreaming is not required in waking life, nor dreaming life, to be detached and have the freedom to choose where to move with your mind. This affects everything within dreams, and affects the layers of mind that we control in waking life.

Originally Posted by Shift

Dream Control (freedom) =/= Lucidity.

Yes, very correct, but then what is lucidity worth now but a definition? Who would strive to achieve psuedo-knowledge that they are dreaming? This is the exact reason I think the definition should be changed. Conscious dreaming is separated only from lucid dreaming because of a definition with a requisite supposition, the pseudo-knowledge that you are dreaming. It is extremely helpful, but it's not necessary to get what most want, and further down the lucid track it can even become too habitual, so that you stop having LDs and start having non-lucid dreams of lucidity.
You said yourself Shift, it's the awareness of the fact, not the fact itself. I'm saying one step further, that it's awareness, but not necessarily of the fact. The fact doesn't hold any potency itself, so why should it be a necessity to include in the equation at all. The realisation doesn't hold potency either, we don't cling onto that we're lucid the entire length of lucidity, we ride the detachment/awareness until we get attached/non-lucid again.

Knowledge that you are dreaming is not required in waking life, nor dreaming life, to be detached and have the freedom to choose where to move with your mind.

that's what happen to me in my dreams, that's because I don't consider them lucid dreams.

Yes, very correct, but then what is lucidity worth now but a definition? Who would strive to achieve psuedo-knowledge that they are dreaming? This is the exact reason I think the definition should be changed. Conscious dreaming is separated only from lucid dreaming because of a definition with a requisite supposition, the pseudo-knowledge that you are dreaming. It is extremely helpful, but it's not necessary to get what most want, and further down the lucid track it can even become too habitual, so that you stop having LDs and start having non-lucid dreams of lucidity.
You said yourself Shift, it's the awareness of the fact, not the fact itself. I'm saying one step further, that it's awareness, but not necessarily of the fact. The fact doesn't hold any potency itself, so why should it be a necessity to include in the equation at all. The realisation doesn't hold potency either, we don't cling onto that we're lucid the entire length of lucidity, we ride the detachment/awareness until we get attached/non-lucid again.

that's the thing I always wanted to say, you see.
that's because I created a lot of threads saying "false lucidity" or things like that, but I couldn't explain it right. but you are doing, and I love this fact.
thank you, thank you for clear my mind at last, of lucid dreaming.
I always understood it, but couldn't explain it, couldn't find the words.
thank you

Originally Posted by Electro_Dreamer

You have a very inspiring view of lucidity. Guess lucid living is what living's all about. I think I'll give it a go

agreed, very inspiring indeed.

i feel the same way about making a commitment to not sleep-living again. once i even HEARD about LD'ing, i was hooked. it's such a shame that millions and millions of people will never experience this... ever.

the reality checking alone kind of makes us some of the more "aware" people on the face of the earth... comparatively (and ESPECIALLY compared to the general American population, if you happen to live here).

Detachment IS awareness, they are required for each other. I'm certainly not meaning to preach for some spiritualism.
Mental awareness requires detachment. If you are not detached from something, you cannot be aware of it, I relate the terms because they alone both carry different connotations, whereas together they paint a better picture imo.

detatchment in waking life will greatly help you become lucid, however in your phrase "Detachment IS awareness", we also have to define awareness. awareness of what? there are many different kinds, including, awareness of a wordly activity, of your body, of your surroundings, and of "being present in the current environment mentally, with a clear mind and without wandering thoughts, observing but not interacting", I think you mean the latter. Again, Detatchment may greatly help with this kind of awareness, however we should be careful not to confuse awareness with lucidity.

I really didn't and don't intend this to be a philosophical discussion.

it is one

to be detached and have the freedom to choose where to move with your mind. This affects everything within dreams, and affects the layers of mind that we control in waking life.

yup. people who are emotionally detached from the torrents of daily vicissitudes have much greater control over what it is they actually want to do.

Yes, very correct, but then what is lucidity worth now but a definition? Who would strive to achieve psuedo-knowledge that they are dreaming? This is the exact reason I think the definition should be changed. Conscious dreaming is separated only from lucid dreaming because of a definition with a requisite supposition, the pseudo-knowledge that you are dreaming. It is extremely helpful, but it's not necessary to get what most want, and further down the lucid track it can even become too habitual, so that you stop having LDs and start having non-lucid dreams of lucidity.
You said yourself Shift, it's the awareness of the fact, not the fact itself. I'm saying one step further, that it's awareness, but not necessarily of the fact. The fact doesn't hold any potency itself, so why should it be a necessity to include in the equation at all. The realisation doesn't hold potency either, we don't cling onto that we're lucid the entire length of lucidity, we ride the detachment/awareness until we get attached/non-lucid again.

Yes lucidity is a definition, but a very important one. I guess "lucidity" is indeed a definition, of realising you are dreaming and then being detached in a way from the illusions of the dream, knowing them for what they are. So you want to call what people call 'lucidity" "detachment", what good would that do? The way definitions, and indeed words work, is that if a bunch of people agree that, say a fruit should be called an apple, what good would battling that be? yes, a great characteristic of lucid dreams is being detached, however that doesn't warrant changing the name.

Originally Posted by yuriythebest

detatchment in waking life will greatly help you become lucid, however in your phrase "Detachment IS awareness", we also have to define awareness. awareness of what? there are many different kinds, including, awareness of a wordly activity, of your body, of your surroundings, and of "being present in the current environment mentally, with a clear mind and without wandering thoughts, observing but not interacting", I think you mean the latter. Again, Detatchment may greatly help with this kind of awareness, however we should be careful not to confuse awareness with lucidity.

[...]

Yes lucidity is a definition, but a very important one. I guess "lucidity" is indeed a definition, of realising you are dreaming and then being detached in a way from the illusions of the dream, knowing them for what they are. So you want to call what people call 'lucidity" "detachment", what good would that do? The way definitions, and indeed words work, is that if a bunch of people agree that, say a fruit should be called an apple, what good would battling that be? yes, a great characteristic of lucid dreams is being detached, however that doesn't warrant changing the name.

I say the detachment is lucidity, the awareness is lucidity, the freedom given from those/that is lucidity. Why I don't like to accept the general definition of lucid dreaming is explained in my other post, the requisite for the definition is not necessary for the most common outcome that people come looking for in LDs -- freedom. The detachment is not just a characteristic of lucid dreaming, but the entire phenomenon itself. Pseudo-knowledge, whether it be thinking you're dreaming, you're nothing, you're a potato, these may all help awareness/detachment or may hinder it. Perhaps try 'Potato Dreaming' for a while, potatoes may not be able run around following DCs or chasing thoughts, they may have to be detached. It will have the same effect as the pseudo-knowledge of dreaming, but they share a common denominator.
I'm not saying change the name of the definition, that makes no sense, I'm raising the fact that it's not necessary. The definition might change as people become aware of this but to be honest I don't consider it such a drama, but I do that a lot of people want to defend the definition to the very letter, disregarding what lucidity is all about -- freedom.

As for the difference between attachment and awareness...
Awareness is just a watching of something, a detachment from it.
Detachment is just a watching of something, an awareness of it.
If there is no 'other thing' to be detached from, then there is no detachment.
If there is no 'other thing' to be aware of, then there is no awareness.
Can you see why I relate the words?

I don't believe in this because i'm who i am in my dreams...

I can feel the ground, the air, i can speak, i can think what to do, i just act normal...

The only thing is that i don't know that i'm dreaming...

Almost 100% of my non lucid dreams are so vivid than real life...

Okay, let me just try to make heads or tails of this discussion in a simple way that is applicable to increasing lucidity, dream control and freedom.

The use of terms like "awareness" and "detachment" remind me of meditation. Meditation is a great way to increase awareness and detachment in real life, and I can swear that the majority of my lucid dreams were only possible because I meditated. (I used to think that I couldn't get lucids unless I listened to binaural beats, completely engaged in the sound, but since it has been scientifically disproven that binaural beats have any effect on brain patterns, I've concluded that the fact that I was actually meditating while listening is what carried on to my dreams.)

With my American lifestyle/upbringing and using the internet a lot, it seems very hard to be clear headed and disengaged from my emotions in the whirlwind of daily life, but what seems to make it really easy, really fast is reading scientific articles about how our brains chemically and electronically process senses from the outside world, our emotions and our reactions. That way, when you're walking down the road, you get caught up in thought about how your brain in real time plays back visual or audio memories while you sense the world around you, therefore becoming detached from everything.

Unless, of course, thinking about the brain distracts you from realizing that you're in a dream....

To put it in a nutshell, you're saying that if you want to have an easier time becoming lucid at night, you have to live your real life with undivided awareness of everything, neutrally observing sights, sounds, smells, etc with keen attention, not just listlessly ignoring everything in the freight train of abstract thoughts and feelings. Then that same process carries over in dreams, for what are dreams but a personification of what your habitual thoughts are in real life?

You should live life like a big reality check, stopping for a moment and really studying the present moment for what is really is.

This is the best I can untangle the concept right now. Become aware in real life = become aware in dreams. It's really simple.

LOL

I agree with everything that was said by everyone after my previous post

Bump, I would love to continue this discussion.

i think it just means that you know that you are dreaming. Because sometimes i like to just go with the dtory line. Not detaching myself from the dream,