Speaking with the dead...

[DogHouseKing]

I should begin by saying that I'm quite the novice. I've had a few LD's, but nothing too significant. My question is, when you talk with loved ones who have passed away in a lucid dream, are they real, or simply what you imagine them to be? The consensus seems to be that dreams are a result of our imagination. Obviously this true in some regards, but I tend to believe that there is much more to it. Whether you agree or disagree, your comments are welcome. Thanks in advance.

[m3thart]

When it comes to lucid dreams I tend to lean more toward the scientific side rather than the mystical or spiritual. This means that I widely believe that dreams are fueled by imagination and the subconscious mind's task of organizing our memories. That being said; as human beings we really know very little of dreams although it appears as if we do. I'm sure there are many members here that can recall dream moments that were, for lack of a better word, paranormal. I suppose it all depends on your beliefs really.

[DogHouseKing]

Well said. I think beliefs make or break ANY experience. To me, the fact that we dream at all shows that there is more to this life than we can possibly know. Many cultures placed great faith in their dreams (Egyptian, Native Americans, etc.). Perhaps we're smart enough now to know that was just foolishness, or maybe they knew something we've yet to learn. I tend to lean towards the latter. That's only my opinion. You seem very intelligent and certainly appreciate your thoughts.

[WakaWaka]

I have to say, I don't believe in any of this. It's understandable how you would believe this though. Many of us probably already have the idea that dreams are a very amazing thing, altered realities, and even control of your reality. Because of this something which would normally would not fit in the real world can easily be believed to be possible in a dream.

[freakishular]

I'm by no means an expert on the situation, but if I were to hazard a guess, if you're attempting to talk to someone you actually knew at one point in time, they would at least remain partially intact. There are so many little things you pick up on when you have a conversation with someone, their mannerisms, certain ways they react, all of those are probably still in your memory, with your imagination to fill in the gaps. but if you were attempting to speak with a real-life historical character or something.. I believe they would appear much more fictitious, as much of what you know about them is probably based off generalizations and whatever else you happen to know. but really, regardless of discussion, you should try to just see for yourself! (if this is a goal)

[SystemsLock]

I really really hate this debate. It reminds me of watching media coverage on controversial topics (ie global warming). Often there exists a clear scientific consensus on the issue but there is always some group, industry sponsored or whatever, who disputes this, as an attempt to remain unbiased (or biased) the media diligently supports both sides and labels it as controversial. After seeing both sides (no matter how factually inaccurate one side is) the public assumes that both arguments must be valid, deciding for themselves, thus making it controversial. Economists call this a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm sure you can see why. In a clearly factual debate, there is no contest, there is no such thing as speaking to the dead (out of body experiences, paranormal events etc.). What ever you want to believe past that is just a leap of faith (that's why they call it faith). We also have a whole section (beyond dreaming) for discussions of this type. That's why I don't go there.

[DogHouseKing]

I see your point. There's no reason to assume that there's anything more to dreaming than meets the eye. In dealing with this subject, however, "facts" are simply one's perception. A thousand years ago, the earth being flat was considered a fact. Two years ago, for me, the idea of being conscience in a dream was unheard of. Forgive me for trying to stay openminded. I completely agree though, whatever you believe beyond the "facts" is a leap of faith. I see no limit to what humanity is capable of, so I live my life on the cliff's edge. Our evolution rests in the mind of man. That was the basis for the topic. I sought no heated debate, simply responses and points of view. Thank you all.

[kevojy]

A friend sent me this once: The Anatomy of a Haunting Make of it what you will. There are many mysteries of the world that we will probably never solve. Which means your free to believe it until it's debunked by science. I personally don't believe in the above, but, I guess it could be plausible. I believe the same about god, it's all subjective.

[SystemsLock]

There's no reason to assume that there's anything more to dreaming than meets the eye. That's exactly my point. However, had it been a thousand years ago, where everyone is claiming the world is flat and you come along claiming the world is round, you may be correct but if you came to that answer with no reasonable justification then who's to say you're any better? Science isn't closed minded, just skeptical. If such paranormal events existed I see no reason why it couldn't reach the scientific community. With the kind of competition that goes on for grant money labs would be diving to publish results. A friend sent me this once: The Anatomy of a Haunting Make of it what you will. There are many mysteries of the world that we will probably never solve. Which means your free to believe it until it's debunked by science. I personally don't believe in the above, but, I guess it could be plausible. I believe the same about god, it's all subjective. I don't think I'd trust much coming from a magazine called "Spirituality & Health". There are plenty of reasonable assumptions but that doesn't make all assumptions reasonable.

[DarkoMarco]

More static than station The question is simple, yet so many qualifying statements and superlatives. I want to clarify a point and give you three personal reasons why. I believe we have a soul and that during dreaming it detaches from the body and travels beyond it. Because, 1. I have had two instances of some one telling me about a dream they had with me in it the night before and I remember having had the same dream. So we were both there. 2. I awoke from my sleep once when I was outside of my body. 3. I had a waking dream where I was visited by my recently departed dead uncle and asked to tell his spouse and my mom that he was okay now. So many people hide in the him of the dress of science like she was the mother who could make it all better because she knows everything. Well that same mother was telling you the earth was flat, that the earth was the middle of the universe and that woman needed to be burned at the stake just a few hundred years ago. The soul is the ultimate subject of science and philosphy, it's existance being denied isn't scientific, it's cowardly.

[kevojy]

So many people hide in the him of the dress of science like she was the mother who could make it all better because she knows everything. Well that same mother was telling you the earth was flat, that the earth was the middle of the universe and that woman needed to be burned at the stake just a few hundred years ago. The soul is the ultimate subject of science and philosphy, it's existance being denied isn't scientific, it's cowardly. Sorry to break it to you but that wasn't science, that was the church. Science actually brought us away from all of those ideas. The whole point of science is to explain the world around us in order to satisfy our curiosity and better our lives. Science does not yet even touch on the subject of souls or an afterlife because it can neither be proved or disproved. It's not cowardly to have different opinions or beliefs, it is cowardly however, to force those beliefs on others.. Just something to think about.

[Baron Samedi]

I should begin by saying that I'm quite the novice. I've had a few LD's, but nothing too significant. My question is, when you talk with loved ones who have passed away in a lucid dream, are they real, or simply what you imagine them to be? The consensus seems to be that dreams are a result of our imagination. Obviously this true in some regards, but I tend to believe that there is much more to it. Whether you agree or disagree, your comments are welcome. Thanks in advance. To tell the difference between a DC and a real person, ignore them. A DC will disappear. A real person will not.

[DarkoMarco]

Actually it was science, as deemed fit by the mainstream society of it's day. If you would have asked any scientist of that day the specifics of the earth being flat, the earth being the center of the universe, any scientist of respect and repute would have told you that was the way it was. Just as the scientists of today who are conformists to mainstream society will disavow any knowledge or information concerning the soul. Today, the new religion of conformity is science, so in terms of BELIEF,,,well,,,,,it is all about conforming,,,,simplyfing existance, and not having to answer or ask for that matter the really tough questions. Funding and grants being absent in the scientific research community wouldn't have anything to do with buisness as usual would it? 1. Eastern science devoloped acupunture and explained it's application in terms of chi meridians and curing blockages of that energy, chi, which is the force that ties the soul to the body. Western science has proved acupuncture works again and again, but won't indulge in explaining why, nor give any credence to the eastern explanation. Maybe because there is no money in it for Big Medicine or the pharmecutical companies. 2. The documented case studies involving prayer. In controlled scientific settings petri dishes with bacteria have shown significant improvement in health and reproductivity having been prayed for than control groups that have not. 3. Kirlian photography, say what you will, it's legit. So much scientific data could be obtained through grants in this area. Yet we see nothing being done. I was on the fence about this one, but then I saw the pictures of the leaves. Experiments were done on leaves showing the energy around them, the leaves were then cut, but, the aura stayed the original perimeter of the leave for hours. 4. Wilhelm Reich, the only western scientist of much reknown to have entered into serious study on the soul and the energy there in. Reich was not only thrown in prison, they chopped up all the scientific equipment in his laboratory with axes and burned all his books in an incinerator in 1955. Timothy leary did five years in prison, Ezra pound did thirteen both for political and economic views in contradiciton to mainstream society and neither had their books burned. It is worth noting that Reich died (mysteriously) two days before the end of his two year sentence. 5. Remote Viewing, as devoloped by Ingo Swann, is basically astral projection, yes, mastering the ability to allow your soul to travel freely outside your body. This practice done in a controlled environment at Stanford University was noted as being so successfull the government halted academic funding for it, but gave it a healthy military budget and CIA budget as Major Ed Dames and many others will attest to. 6. Near Death experiences. This was all poo pooed away very convienatly by "main stream" scientists as synapsis firing away in the brain as it died. Then came Pam Reynolds who had a NDE while undergoing a rare operation to remove a artery aneurysm in her brain. Dr. Michael Sabom was shocked to hear conversations taking place by himself and nurses during the operation being recanted by Pam Reynolds because she was BRAIN DEAD during the operation and no synapses could have been firing at that time. Pam's body temp was lowered to 60 degrees and her heart and brain were stopped. 7. Numerous case studies involving children remembering exacting details from a former life. The problem with science today, isn't science, it's mainstream society and the control of information through the control of the media and acadamia. If you feel genuinly comfortable in your role as a cog in this machinary then I almost envy you. But bottom line, there are dark forces out there that don't want you empowered and don't want you outside thier sphere of influence. Your soul is yours to explore and discover, and I feel a passionate responsibility to protest and inform when I hear people proclaiming the soul does not exist. If you maintain that science has all the answers, examine why you think so. Explore why it makes you feel comfortable in maintaining the soul does not exist. Ask yourself, are those thoughts truly my own? The unexamined life is not worth living. Socrates An education obtained with money is worse than no education at all Socrates

[highrik]

I think that if you lived 2000 years ago or whenever you will be immerse in the accepted ideas and thinking of the day. Ancient Greeks who thought thunder storms where Zeus getting angry and throwing lighting bolts had no conception of rising air, static electricity etc. Phosphorus was discovered by a guy looking for the elixir of life and I bet he was quite excited when he discovered it as it glows, but the thing is,objectively, all he did was extract phosphorus from urine.. it took a bit of time and investigation to work out phosphorous was a new element with interesting properties and not some kind of life force. Brains have qualities we don't understand but we do know that thoughts, feelings, emotion and dreams emanate from the brain it's self and it'll take time and investigation to understand how it all works. Regards highrik ps when I was very little my brother told me the world was round and I kicked him for lying

[Fatpak]

It's a weird debate to have because it borders on arguing religion vs science. When my Grandfather passed away, I had a dream that he came back. In the dream he just walked into the room full of my extended family and everyone was acting normal. I was freaking out and saying stuff like 'you're dead' 'how is this possible?' It was a very weird experience and I woke up quite depressed. With that being said, I have had other people talk about loved ones visiting them after death. Thinking on it makes me believe this is just a way of coping for people. It's on your mind so much at that time that it would make sense that your dreams become molded around it.

[DarkoMarco]

I think that if you lived 2000 years ago or whenever you will be immerse in the accepted ideas and thinking of the day. Ancient Greeks who thought thunder storms where Zeus getting angry and throwing lighting bolts had no conception of rising air, static electricity etc. Phosphorus was discovered by a guy looking for the elixir of life and I bet he was quite excited when he discovered it as it glows, but the thing is,objectively, all he did was extract phosphorus from urine.. it took a bit of time and investigation to work out phosphorous was a new element with interesting properties and not some kind of life force. Brains have qualities we don't understand but we do know that thoughts, feelings, emotion and dreams emanate from the brain it's self and it'll take time and investigation to understand how it all works. Regards highrik ps when I was very little my brother told me the world was round and I kicked him for lying As long as were talking alchemy "as above so below" or in this case "as is then so is now" and as far as people worshiping what they are told to worship we have just exchanged the gods of old for the gods of new. Only now they are entertainers, athletes and infallible scientists. When you are defending your time and your culture you are really defending your right now to NOT be an individual. And as far as qualities of the brain yet to be discovered you didn't really get that part in my last post about near death experience and the person experiencing it being hooked up to an EKG and having no heart beat and being "brain dead" did you? Tell me,,,, what is so comforting about not having a soul? I'm not talking religion here, I'm talking your soul. Let me tell you a little story. There is this book, "The Celestine Prophecy" basically states that where your attention goes so to your energy goes. If the powers that be keep your attention on them, your energy goes to them. If you put your attention into your self, your soul, well you get the point. I'm no natural psychic, but after years of open eye meditations, I began to devolop the ability to see things not normally visible to people. Case in point. We have all experienced that teacher in school who was just super freaking awesome, who could captiviate a classroom. I had one of those in my third year in college. As the whole class was spell bound and captivated by my marketing professor, ie he had thier full attention as such he had the focused energy of the classroom, I began to see his aura. Now, I'm not so devoloped as to just see auras whenever I want, but this was diffrent, this guy had so much energy in his aura that it was visible to me. Now I know this is personal experience and as such, provides no proof to you. But to me, it was unmistakable evidence. Take Care Marcus

[DarkoMarco]

It's a weird debate to have because it borders on arguing religion vs science. When my Grandfather passed away, I had a dream that he came back. In the dream he just walked into the room full of my extended family and everyone was acting normal. I was freaking out and saying stuff like 'you're dead' 'how is this possible?' It was a very weird experience and I woke up quite depressed. With that being said, I have had other people talk about loved ones visiting them after death. Thinking on it makes me believe this is just a way of coping for people. It's on your mind so much at that time that it would make sense that your dreams become molded around it. Religion is like nutrition, the more manufactured and man made it is, the worse it is for you. When in doubt, trust nature, trust what comes naturally. As far as your dream, it may have been just that, a coping dream. I think the dreamer is the one who knows wether it was really a person or not. Ussually there is a lucidness involved when some one is real in your dream. A sense of knowing.

[SystemsLock]

I have had two instances of some one telling me about a dream they had with me in it the night before and I remember having had the same dream. So we were both there. A combination of coincidence, the human condition (humans generally think alike), and autosuggestion (your mind fills in the gaps with other peoples stories). I awoke from my sleep once when I was outside of my body. How do you know you were outside your body rather than just having a dream outside your body? Dreams can feel very real, as real as real life even, but that doesn't make them. I had a waking dream where I was visited by my recently departed dead uncle and asked to tell his spouse and my mom that he was okay now. Again, how do you know you weren't just having a dream about being visited by a dead person? So many people hide in the him of the dress of science like she was the mother who could make it all better because she knows everything. Well that same mother was telling you the earth was flat, that the earth was the middle of the universe and that woman needed to be burned at the stake just a few hundred years ago. An education obtained with money is worse than no education at all Socrates I think you need a little lesson in history. Well then I suppose you might (gasp!) have to pay money for an education. Kindergarten is free you know. The soul is the ultimate subject of science and philosphy, it's existance being denied isn't scientific, it's cowardly. Denied and disproved are two different things. Is denying the existence of the flying spaghetti monster cowardly? It's a major world religion. Damn, and everything was going so well. Everyone seemed intelligent and reasonable. It was only a matter of time until someone came around to ruin it.

[DarkoMarco]

I have yet to meet a mathmatician who could reason. Socrates You have your God, it is denial, and you may worship it as you may.

[highrik]

I don't think not believing in a soul is denial, it's just a different point of view to yours. I'm not knocking your faith Darkomarco but seeing colours (aura's) can be explained from different perspectives and personally I'm in favor of a scientific one. For me scientific inquiry leads to a better understanding of what every you are investigating. Lots of very clever scientists had to agree on a whole lot of natural laws and effects.. in physics, chemistry etc to put someone on the moon. (unless the moon landing was a dream of course )

[SystemsLock]

I have yet to meet a mathmatician who could reason. Socrates You have your God, it is denial, and you may worship it as you may. You do know that Socrates was killed for standing up to the state religion? He wasn't quite atheist (no one was at the time) but he put logic ahead of mysticism and questioned the traditionalist views of the state. Do you dare question your own beliefs? I know I do every day. For if we did not we'd all still be thinking the world was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and we'd be burning witches at the stake.

[saltyseedog]

well if you don't believe you have a soul and you are only a physical body what do you think will happen when you die? Will the experience just stop? I used to think that, the idea made me so depressed. Look up the pineal gland and DMT. People smoke DMT and claim to travel to another realm where entities show them the secrets of life. When you dream your pineal gland releases DMT! I think the pineal gland is the third eye that lets us see into a grander reality. What you see in waking life is an interpretation of electrical signals sent from your eyes to your brain. When you dream is it electrical signals sent from your pineal gland? I think this is what they mean in meditation to look "inward"

[DogHouseKing]

You typed what I was thinking Salty. I'm sure you're aware of the book "DMT The Spirit Molecule" by Dr. Rick Strassman, but for anyone else who's interested, its a fascinating read. What we know of religion is that it is rooted in speculation. What we know scientifically is constantly changing. I've heard no reason (be it religious or scientific) as to WHY we dream at all. My guess is that dreaming hints at a world much greater than our physical existence. Simply my opionin. I appreciate everyone's thoughts.

[SystemsLock]

well if you don't believe you have a soul and you are only a physical body what do you think will happen when you die? Will the experience just stop? Yes, it just stops. I've heard no reason (be it religious or scientific) as to WHY we dream at all. Admittedly it's a a little murky. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of good theories.

[kevojy]

I know it sounds lame but since you brought it up.. Scientists actually do have many theories about why we dream, they have actually done a ton of research on the subject. You don't generally hear about it though because it's really not that fascinating.. The accepted reason for dreaming is that when we dream we subconsciously process the days events and details, putting these things into our permanent memory. That's why you will usually dream about things that happened that day. Big events will normally show up in dreams and also remain in the memory for longer. This is why you're supposed to study right before you go to bed, you will dream about the studied material (probably in early REM stages so little of these dreams are consciously remembered) and subconsciously process it. This has proven to increase test scores etc. As for the more "creative dreams" in later REM, these are largely a mystery so if you fancy it then go ahead and believe that your are in an astral plane, or experiencing a parallel universe beyond our own. I particularly like the latter Personally though, after studying psychology and neurology a little, I believe it is a function of our brain. Simply night-time day dreaming. With our subconscious working at a power way beyond our abilities during the day. I also believe that dreaming is one of our most misunderstood and most powerful abilities. Of course lucid dreaming and exploring the dream world just brings that ability to a whole new level And yes I believe when we die, experiences stop, like deep sleep. Life's too short to worry about the afterlife.