Thread: Merging Realities (Waking & Dreaming)

" Whether we know it or not, we create everything that we experience, mostly unconsciously or unaware"

You start with something that you present as a fact, but which is only a hypothesis (from the new age stuffs, the secret and so on), each one can agree, or not, but it is far from being a established fact.
Everything you will conclude from this hypothesis will leads to idea that will be further from any established point.

Perhaps there is an element of poor wording on my part. It is however something that is true from my experience and it is absolutely possible for different people to hold different truths for themselves at the same time. I do advise people to conclude this for themselves, but there isn't an established point and waiting for one misses the whole point. The matter at hand is that we have "free will" and are able to create our realities. At this very moment I am choosing to type this for example. On a more deeper level though you will find that everyone whether they see themselves as victims rather than causes are still in control of their actions, their emotions, their thoughts, etc. As a lucid dreamer you have probably noticed how you have influenced your dreams. It is the same thing, if you really pay attention, just not the same degree. And maybe it's not something that can be established considering how everything affects everything and we don't know what happens behind the scenes. There will always be opposing views... But I am pretty sure that it is an established point that everything starts with a thought. Otherwise how do we create things?

As thoughts lead us to actions, yes, there is no doubt that a thought can influence what is coming after, because we will react, act, build or destroy something, go somewhere and interact with other persons, and so on.

What is not a fact but a belief (true of false) is this famous magical stuff called "law of attraction" that gravitate around the new age field.
But it seams that you weren't meaning this kind of esoteric influence of thoughts, so it's ok for me.

Yes I meant that thoughts lead us to actions and etc, but also in relation to the 'law of attraction'. I hope this doesn't make you think any less of me because of it but I agree anyway that it is something not proven but also not unproven and therefore considered a 'belief' by some and others may hold the opposite 'belief' at the same time. Contradicting truths are possible considering most things are subjective. So now what? It is not something established as you say, so does that mean that the whole idea that thoughts influence more than our actions but that of external things should be completely distegarded?

I don't want to argue over how things are happening but rather hear what you or anyone else think in terms of the waking world being similar to the dreaming world and whether it can ever be the same where we do things like in our dreams. Bearing in mind that the physical waking world around us is not truly physical in the sense that everything is vibrating.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for challenging me on it.

Well, it doesn't mean that the theories that you will construct from the hypothesis that the esoteric part of the "law of attraction" is real will be wrong, but it does imply that those theories will be at least as hypothetic as the starting point.

I agree anyway that it is something not proven but also not unproven and therefore considered a 'belief' by some and others may hold the opposite 'belief' at the same time.

This a very usual argument opposed to skepticism objections.
There is a cat in the middle of the hidden face of the moon.
If a certain amount of people start to claim that, if books are written presenting this as a fact, you will find more and more people who will argue that this is probably the case, and even people who will claim that those who don't believe this are mind closed.
Yes, nobody can prove that there is no cat, but using this fact as an argument leads to nowhere.

I think you take the question in the wrong way.
I think it is not reality that is like dreams but dreams that mimics the reality rules because of expectation and strong unconscious beliefs.
the only real "physical" rule in dreams is the power of thoughts, both conscious ans unconscious thoughts.
gravity works in dreams because we strongly expect it works, firstly because we think that we are awake, but even if we are lucid, gravity rules the dreaming world because of unconscious expectations.
But with conscious thoughts we can modify some stuffs, whether we are Lucid or not, because the dream world is made of thoughts.

We perceive dreams and reality the same way, because indeed we don't directly perceive reality, what we perceive is what our brain builds from the electrical signals inputs that sensory organs send to the brain, from the reality inputs its detect.

But the fact that our brain build a representation of our reality doesn't mean that the reality isn't a real independent world.
The dream world looks real but contrary to the real world, it is only a thoughts wold constructed by the brain from it's own internal functions, without any external input.
that is why we can influence the real like dream world by thoughts : it is a thoughts world based on nothing externally real.
Reality, no matter how any human animal or not human animal perceive it, is a solid and independent stuff.

Yes atoms, particles, quarks are probably vibrating stuffs, but take your car and go at 200km/h toward a solid wall, you will find that saying that reality is nothing but vibrations will sound very abstract to you.

law of attraction may have very psychological explanations by the way.

Originally Posted by Kaan

Well, it doesn't mean that the theories that you will construct from the hypothesis that the esoteric part of the "law of attraction" is real will be wrong, but it does imply that those theories will be at least as hypothetic as the starting point.

I have no problem with that.

Originally Posted by Kaan

This a very usual argument opposed to skepticism objections.
There is a cat in the middle of the hidden face of the moon.
If a certain amount of people start to claim that, if books are written presenting this as a fact, you will find more and more people who will argue that this is probably the case, and even people who will claim that those who don't believe this are mind closed.
Yes, nobody can prove that there is no cat, but using this fact as an argument leads to nowhere.

That's why I don't want to argue. I am not trying to change your views.

Originally Posted by Kaan

I think you take the question in the wrong way.
I think it is not reality that is like dreams but dreams that mimics the reality rules because of expectation and strong unconscious beliefs.
the only real "physical" rule in dreams is the power of thoughts, both conscious ans unconscious thoughts.
gravity works in dreams because we strongly expect it works, firstly because we think that we are awake, but even if we are lucid, gravity rules the dreaming world because of unconscious expectations.
But with conscious thoughts we can modify some stuffs, whether we are Lucid or not, because the dream world is made of thoughts.

Maybe, but I like to think that both are similar and neither came first like you are refering and that they are reflections of each other that exist simultaneously. Not that waking life mimics dreams or the other way around.
If the thoughts rule in dreams like that then why wouldn't it be the same in waking life, but to a different level of course. This life could be just a dream. It's just another layer that carries on infitively. What if someone thought the opposite of that and treated waking life like it's a dream and anything is possible. I think they would find that they can influence various things or there'd be a lot of coincidence. But it would be extremely hard to alter gravity or something that big that is so ingrained in the unconscious and collective conscious. That's why the majority of stories of experiences such as that of the 'law of attraction' are usually on an individual level. But if the collective shared the same thoughts it is likely that there would be some effect.

Originally Posted by Kaan

We perceive dreams and reality the same way, because indeed we don't directly perceive reality, what we perceive is what our brain builds from the electrical signals inputs that sensory organs send to the brain, from the reality inputs its detect.

But the fact that our brain build a representation of our reality doesn't mean that the reality isn't a real independent world.
The dream world looks real but contrary to the real world, it is only a thoughts wold constructed by the brain from it's own internal functions, without any external input.
that is why we can influence the real like dream world by thoughts : it is a thoughts world based on nothing externally real.
Reality, no matter how any human animal or not human animal perceive it, is a solid and independent stuff.

But it also doesn't mean that it is an independent world and the same could be said of the dream world that is indeed an independent world. The characters inside surely believe it so. But it is us that have the knowledge of waking life tend to determine that it isn't real. Like I have said before, waking life could be a dream and we would never know because we don't have access to the waking life of the dreamer.

Originally Posted by Kaan

Yes atoms, particles, quarks are probably vibrating stuffs, but take your car and go at 200km/h toward a solid wall, you will find that saying that reality is nothing but vibrations will sound very abstract to you.

law of attraction may have very psychological explanations by the way.

Yes certainly. What I meant is that it isn't exactly concrete. Even if extremely unlikely because it is not fixed it could potentially be changed or re-arranged just like in the dream.
What do you mean by that? (Psychological explanations)

Very good thread here, my favorite topic.

If the point of the thread is theory on if it is possible or not, then I definitely agree that it can be done via magical means like LoA among other things

A more interesting purpose to this thread, and what it sounds like you are looking for Rodrodrod, would be exploration of actions and methods for achieving this merger of waking and dream. I'm very curious, what you have been looking into in order to accomplish this wonderful goal?

Technical Sematics from my view: Waking and Dreaming are already 'merged' the goal instead is essentially this at any time:

The co-creation of certain things like gravity, if not all the reality, is a belief (that comes from the same new age sources) that is often specifically anthropocentric.
humankind is only one animal spieces among thousands of millions other animal spieces, but who knows why, it is almost always about humans point of view.

Do you think that before the humankind exists G was not equal to 9.81?
Do you think that gravity changes if population changes from a date to another? (if "we" co create the gravity, it should change depending on how many we are to believe that)
if it did, very many things would change in the universe.

by the way, how can few microscopic bugs(humankind) distributed in something as insignificant as a grain of sand (earth) , which is absolutely nothing compared to the vastness of the universe, could modify the reality? (the whole universe).
Do you think that the universe is also a dream of the big dreamer?
According to astro physicists, this big dreamer have very stable and balanced dreams if the whole universe is the result of his dreaming big brain.

The more I read and lean from sciences, the less this idea that we co-create the reality (I did believe that in the past) makes sens to me.

About the psychological explanations of the law of attraction:

It's quite simple indeed, how you feel, what you think, your expectations, you fears or confidences, and so on, all of those stuffs modify your way of reacting, your way of paying attention to something or someone, and it will lead to different reactions, it will lead to different observations, because you are more focused on such a thing, and less on another etc..

If you are frighten, stressed, you will attract strange and maybe dangerous people because of how you behave, movements, way of looking people, voice intonations and so on are example of unconscious signals that the people you are scared about will unconsciously detect.
Basically, If you are afraid to be a victim, you will behave like a victim and you will be more easily noticed by aggressive people.

Another example:

if you are driving in a big city and are looking for a parking space, if you are late and stressed, you won't find any one, it will stress you even more, and so on.
if you let it down, relax, totally accept what IS (Like Eckhart Tolle and other gurus explain), you will find one free very fast, not because a magical law but because your mind will be less occupied in wondering, and will be more likely to notice the free parking space.

Very many aspects of the law of attraction can be explained by psychological points of view.

Originally Posted by Wisher

Very good thread here, my favorite topic.

If the point of the thread is theory on if it is possible or not, then I definitely agree that it can be done via magical means like LoA among other things

A more interesting purpose to this thread, and what it sounds like you are looking for Rodrodrod, would be exploration of actions and methods for achieving this merger of waking and dream. I'm very curious, what you have been looking into in order to accomplish this wonderful goal?

Technical Sematics from my view: Waking and Dreaming are already 'merged' the goal instead is essentially this at any time:

Yes! that is the kind of thing that I had in mind. And that is essentially the goal I am talking about too =) It's about pushing the boundaries.

What I have been doing is essentially observation. I notice often a thought that appears only for it to be realized moments later, sometimes much later. One example: whilst on the bus pondering random things I begun to think about what it would be like for someone to go out and lose their shoes and the experience of being shoe-less in public. Almost immediately I look outside and see a woman getting startled by a guy. They start talking and the woman points to her feet to which she is wearing only socks and no shoes.
What I noticed from this is that either I created that experience for myself or I picked up on it. Or perhaps both. I had the experience because it was something already happening but at the same time it happened because it was something I had to experience and both exist mutually.

Other than this, I state in my mind like a game things that I would like to experience, just for fun and as I see them happen I try to be more specific. Example: As I was explaining this game I like to do to a friend I came up with something on the spot and said "I would like to experience seeing a woman walking a small dog". I wasn't even trying to show my friend, had no second thoughts about it, it was just an example. Like 30 seconds later we walk by a woman walking a chiwawa. As we pass her I just point it out to my friend and he just nods. Other things I try is thinking of a song, movie or even running into a friend. I've tried being specific with meeting a friend and instead I will see something that reminds me of them or they will suddenly call me up.
What is interesting from this to me is how some thoughts are more "powerful" than others. We probably think billions of things everyday, and certain things that we think only once sometimes goes and happens. I am trying to understand why is that so. Have no idea.

I also have the habit of writing down stories of fantasy for my own recreation on a book I call "Stranger than fiction" (which is a based on a movie with Will Farrell) and more often than not I find similar situations happening as I have written down. On one occasion I created a character with purple highlights for her hair and as I created this I also thought how it'd be like if a friend of mine did this. About a year later my friend does this. It's just very peculiar to me.
Something very interesting from this is the essence of Time. This is very different in relation to the dream world so it seems to be a huge factor as to why we can't immediately create an experience. We do however move through time at various speeds at times which is something very curious to me and I am trying to learn more. How can we change the experience of time if at all, consciously. Also why certain things we experience immediately and others not.

Originally Posted by Kaan

The co-creation of certain things like gravity, if not all the reality, is a belief (that comes from the same new age sources) that is often specifically anthropocentric.
humankind is only one animal spieces among thousands of millions other animal spieces, but who knows why, it is almost always about humans point of view.

Do you think that before the humankind exists G was not equal to 9.81?
Do you think that gravity changes if population changes from a date to another? (if "we" co create the gravity, it should change depending on how many we are to believe that)
if it did, very many things would change in the universe.

by the way, how can few microscopic bugs(humankind) distributed in something as insignificant as a grain of sand (earth) , which is absolutely nothing compared to the vastness of the universe, could modify the reality? (the whole universe).
Do you think that the universe is also a dream of the big dreamer?
According to astro physicists, this big dreamer have very stable and balanced dreams if the whole universe is the result of his dreaming big brain.

The more I read and lean from sciences, the less this idea that we co-create the reality (I did believe that in the past) makes sens to me.

I don't think we are the center of the universe like that but we are an essential part no matter how minuscule we seem to be. Just like the cells in our body are essential for us to function so are we in the grander scheme of things as we effect our planet which in turn will affect the solar system and so forth and so on. There is essentially no size to things as things will stretch on infinitely positively and negative in relation to anything.
I can't say for sure but even now it does vary but that's also because of how accurate are our recordings. I don't think that the change is huge but there is change. Everything changes.
The change I am talking about is immediate change to our reality. I don't think that we would be able to overcome gravity completely as you are probably thinking because humans are negligible as a whole. But we could momentary affect it and we probably wouldn't even feel the difference.
I don't think there is a big dreamer overall. It's something that has no end. There might be a big dreamer in relation to us but then there will be a big dreamer to our big dreamer and so forth and so on.
The problem is that we can't explain things like the universe with words. We still try just because but essentially our most in depth form of understanding is that of feelings, which can't be subjected to the methodology of science.

Originally Posted by Kaan

About the psychological explanations of the law of attraction:

It's quite simple indeed, how you feel, what you think, your expectations, you fears or confidences, and so on, all of those stuffs modify your way of reacting, your way of paying attention to something or someone, and it will lead to different reactions, it will lead to different observations, because you are more focused on such a thing, and less on another etc..

If you are frighten, stressed, you will attract strange and maybe dangerous people because of how you behave, movements, way of looking people, voice intonations and so on are example of unconscious signals that the people you are scared about will unconsciously detect.
Basically, If you are afraid to be a victim, you will behave like a victim and you will be more easily noticed by aggressive people.

Another example:

if you are driving in a big city and are looking for a parking space, if you are late and stressed, you won't find any one, it will stress you even more, and so on.
if you let it down, relax, totally accept what IS (Like Eckhart Tolle and other gurus explain), you will find one free very fast, not because a magical law but because your mind will be less occupied in wondering, and will be more likely to notice the free parking space.

Very many aspects of the law of attraction can be explained by psychological points of view.

I agree, we are all living in our own paradigm based on our individual experiences and how we feel in any given moment, so we'll see what we see. You just described how the "magical law of attraction" works so it seems you do agree with it but don't like the way it's presented. I never claimed that it is a "magical law" like you say but rather that "how you feel, what you think, your expectations, you fears or confidences, and so on, all of those stuffs modify your way of reacting, your way of paying attention to something or someone, and it will lead to different reactions, it will lead to different observations" (your quote). Don't you see how what you just said is exactly how the 'law of attraction' works, and the only thing it suggests is for you to consciously "let it down, relax, totally accept what IS" in order to experience life how you want and be able to "notice the free parking space". If you are positive, you will have a positive experience. Others will detect the unconscious signals like you said and you will experience what you wish to experience. Therefore you are essentially creating your experience as your intentions are affecting the outcome in the end (via unconscious signals).

I think you're basically right. I believe reality is a spectrum with pure consciousness or "God" at the top, and physical reality at the bottom. It is a spectrum of energy density where the bottom is the densest and slowest. The layers exist in the same space in the same way that light and sound can exist in the same space at the same time.

So the dream/astral plane is basically the next layer/density up, and when we dream, we shift our focus to that layer of our consciousness. This explains the difference in how you create your experience on each level. I like to call physical reality "dreaming in slow motion." The energy here is denser, thus your thoughts take longer to manifest. Its the same law of attraction, but it works a little differently on different levels. The idea is that the aspect of physical reality is to help train us for higher states of existence.

There is a channelled entity called Bashar that talks about something called the template level reality where the higher aspect of your soul basically plans out elements of your life, and it can apparently be accessed while lucid dreaming so that you can consciously alter elements of your life. He also says that through mastering lucid dreaming you can essentially blur the line between waking and dreaming through maximizing your lucidity in both states. I dont have experience with this last part but it I something I'm working toward.

I dont know if you're familiar with channeling but I'll see if I can find the right video since it seems that this is exactly what you were talking about in your original post.

I hope that makes sense; the model I described is something that I have experienced as the truth but I can't prove it to anyone else. It seems to be in line with what you are saying. Ive experienced pretty much exactly what you've described in my own life, in large and small degrees. Would you say its an accurate model of watch you've been experiencing?

Something I was about to ask myself. You explained the idea pretty well. Just needed to say that I loved loved loved the thread!

Yes, I believe in the LOA and this really interests me! Anyways, I dont want to debate on the subject of the LOA. I just wanted to add that people have had real results that are not just psychological. Three job opportunities have come into my life with little to no physical effort on my part. My last job LITERALLY walked through the door while at a not-so-great job. I'm at not-so-great work and they walk in the store informing me they are hiring and I'm like, great, hire me! At the time, even though I wanted a new job, I gave up on craigslist and gave up on physically job hunting. I left it all up to the universe to figure it out. So no physical effort plus belief equaled job.

Call it a coincidence if it makes you happy. But my experience tells me its real!


I've been wanting to merge dream reality and waking reality! Sure, LOA. But also, I believe in an omnipresent consciousness. And this is old school spiritual stuff. Its christian. Its hindu. Its buddhist. In dreams our subconscious is omnipresent! When we become lucid we can realize this and literally say "My subconscious is manifesting itself as everything in the dream. My subconscious is being both the dream characters and the dream landscape. I am literally inside of my subconscious, and even though my subconscious is now an environment around me, my subconscious is also still inside of me! And it is me." See! Our subconscious is omnipresent in dreams.

So I thought, its nice and all to say I believe in an omnipresent consciousness, but wouldnt it be great to take it a step further and experience that, for real?

I want to apply what I've learned in lucid dreams to waking life! I started doing that this week. When I'm awake, I focus on my environment much like when I'm lucid and tell myself that everything I'm looking at is all the stuff of mind. After awhile I get on a trippy buzz holding those thoughts! I also thought, for those who are interested in the LOA, its much easier to approach it if you approach it like a dream.

I tell myself "Okay, if I wanted to change the dream, how I do that while lucid?" And then I do that!

I Googled "LOA" and got "Leave of absence (???)

Originally Posted by juroara

Yes, I believe in the LOA and this really interests me! Anyways, I dont want to debate on the subject of the LOA. I just wanted to add that people have had real results that are not just psychological. Three job opportunities have come into my life with little to no physical effort on my part. My last job LITERALLY walked through the door while at a not-so-great job. I'm at not-so-great work and they walk in the store informing me they are hiring and I'm like, great, hire me! At the time, even though I wanted a new job, I gave up on craigslist and gave up on physically job hunting. I left it all up to the universe to figure it out. So no physical effort plus belief equaled job.

Call it a coincidence if it makes you happy. But my experience tells me its real!


I've been wanting to merge dream reality and waking reality! Sure, LOA. But also, I believe in an omnipresent consciousness. And this is old school spiritual stuff. Its christian. Its hindu. Its buddhist. In dreams our subconscious is omnipresent! When we become lucid we can realize this and literally say "My subconscious is manifesting itself as everything in the dream. My subconscious is being both the dream characters and the dream landscape. I am literally inside of my subconscious, and even though my subconscious is now an environment around me, my subconscious is also still inside of me! And it is me." See! Our subconscious is omnipresent in dreams.

So I thought, its nice and all to say I believe in an omnipresent consciousness, but wouldnt it be great to take it a step further and experience that, for real?

I want to apply what I've learned in lucid dreams to waking life! I started doing that this week. When I'm awake, I focus on my environment much like when I'm lucid and tell myself that everything I'm looking at is all the stuff of mind. After awhile I get on a trippy buzz holding those thoughts! I also thought, for those who are interested in the LOA, its much easier to approach it if you approach it like a dream.

I tell myself "Okay, if I wanted to change the dream, how I do that while lucid?" And then I do that!

Originally Posted by Sacred Arboretum

I hope that makes sense; the model I described is something that I have experienced as the truth but I can't prove it to anyone else. It seems to be in line with what you are saying. Ive experienced pretty much exactly what you've described in my own life, in large and small degrees. Would you say its an accurate model of watch you've been experiencing?

Yeah it makes sense to me. I've read a lot of similar things before and it seems to match my experience. Though I don't know enough at other levels of the spectrum I also see that a higher part of myself is in charge of that.

Originally Posted by juroara

Yes, I believe in the LOA and this really interests me! Anyways, I dont want to debate on the subject of the LOA. I just wanted to add that people have had real results that are not just psychological. Three job opportunities have come into my life with little to no physical effort on my part. My last job LITERALLY walked through the door while at a not-so-great job. I'm at not-so-great work and they walk in the store informing me they are hiring and I'm like, great, hire me! At the time, even though I wanted a new job, I gave up on craigslist and gave up on physically job hunting. I left it all up to the universe to figure it out. So no physical effort plus belief equaled job.

Call it a coincidence if it makes you happy. But my experience tells me its real!


I've been wanting to merge dream reality and waking reality! Sure, LOA. But also, I believe in an omnipresent consciousness. And this is old school spiritual stuff. Its christian. Its hindu. Its buddhist. In dreams our subconscious is omnipresent! When we become lucid we can realize this and literally say "My subconscious is manifesting itself as everything in the dream. My subconscious is being both the dream characters and the dream landscape. I am literally inside of my subconscious, and even though my subconscious is now an environment around me, my subconscious is also still inside of me! And it is me." See! Our subconscious is omnipresent in dreams.

So I thought, its nice and all to say I believe in an omnipresent consciousness, but wouldnt it be great to take it a step further and experience that, for real?

I want to apply what I've learned in lucid dreams to waking life! I started doing that this week. When I'm awake, I focus on my environment much like when I'm lucid and tell myself that everything I'm looking at is all the stuff of mind. After awhile I get on a trippy buzz holding those thoughts! I also thought, for those who are interested in the LOA, its much easier to approach it if you approach it like a dream.

I tell myself "Okay, if I wanted to change the dream, how I do that while lucid?" And then I do that!

Glad to hear how you've experienced this kind of thing. I also see that there is a consciousness in everything around us and when we are in sync with that and respect it we can feel it, hear it, see it through anything, since it's everything! I actually learned this lesson in a lucid dream I had where I attacked a mirror for no reason and cracked it, only to find it wrote a message telling me to stop. It was quite funny at the time so you may have seen it here: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-view...st-things.html (Not sure the page). So I started applying this kind of respect in waking life and there was some cool results. Like when something wasn't working I'd say "please" to it and "thank it" and it would suddenly work. Sometimes it didn't but it doesn't hurt to try. What I've found is that a "Thankful" perspective towards things is essential to manifesting something as you need to "have something" before you can "have it". It is essentially a prayer. It's about intent and not merely saying it. You have to mean it. That's why I like to write down and visualize a lot of the things I wish to experience as it helps me believe it. Cool thing is that is works in helping me have lucid dreams =)

Originally Posted by EbbTide000

I Googled "LOA" and got "Leave of absence (???)

It stands for "Law of Attraction"

I 'd like to ask you guys a question that can sound weird but which is very serious.
This question follows upon the thing I said about anthropocentrism.

How do you think Law Of Attraction works for a snail?

Very interesting question to think of different perspectives, I can't say I've thought about it before so I have no idea. But if I were to guess I would say that on a primal level of instinct or intent. It feels hungry so it goes looking for food and attracting the experience of finding food. Who knows?!

Edit: Just had an interesting moment happen where my mum just said that she looked at her plants and "heard" them asking for water (Not literally). It's a feeling that she needs to go an water the plant. So perhaps that's how the plant is attracting that experience. It's fascinating to me that's all.

Biology is on it's own a miracle.
Even the simplest unicellular organism is the result of a infinitely smart and ingenious process
People who are looking for magical stuffs, extra ordinary stuffs, (I was one of them) often forget to look at how ordinary things are infinitely more "magical" than the supposed paranormal stuffs.

looking for "extra"-ordinary stuffs but ignoring the very real normal but miraculous things non the less is like looking at one's lost keys in the night near a street light, not because the keys were lost over there (and he knows that he didn't loose his keys there) but because there is light.
It's pointless if the keys are in the darkness.
it makes the searcher think that he is indeed searching his keys (the truth) although the only clever thing would be to look for them in the dark.

why are people spending so much time searching the magical stuff under the light?

Originally Posted by Kaan

I 'd like to ask you guys a question that can sound weird but which is very serious.
This question follows upon the thing I said about anthropocentrism.

How do you think Law Of Attraction works for a snail?

The same way it works for all conscious beings! Except if you aren't aware of the process than you are creating by "default". Snails, like all animals, desire food, sex, safety. And then there are the things they fear (omg salt). Their lives are a reflection of that.

Originally Posted by Kaan

Biology is on it's own a miracle.
Even the simplest unicellular organism is the result of a infinitely smart and ingenious process
People who are looking for magical stuffs, extra ordinary stuffs, (I was one of them) often forget to look at how ordinary things are infinitely more "magical" than the supposed paranormal stuffs.

looking for "extra"-ordinary stuffs but ignoring the very real normal but miraculous things non the less is like looking at one's lost keys in the night near a street light, not because the keys were lost over there (and he knows that he didn't loose his keys there) but because there is light.
It's pointless if the keys are in the darkness.
it makes the searcher think that he is indeed searching his keys (the truth) although the only clever thing would be to look for them in the dark.

why are people spending so much time searching the magical stuff under the light?

I agree with you completely! So I don't understand who are you trying to argue against? Nor do I understand your anthropocentrism argument. Who told you the LOA only works for humans?

The LOA is the result of mind. If it has a mind, then it is by default co-creating along with all the other minds. The species doesn't matter. What matters is mind. And its not a choice. The LOA says MIND = LOA. We don't have a choice.

Youre also inferring that people who believe in the LOA they think of it as some sort of magical supernatural process. Errr. Wrong. (its the nay sayers who think that) For people who believe in the LOA they believe it is the most fundamental aspect of reality. Its the nature of consciousness, and we expect science to continue to talk about. The LOA almost always accompanies the belief of an omnipresent consciousness or the belief that reality is the stuff of mind. (For all you atheists rolling your eyes out there, please note that even your atheist buddhism considers reality to be the stuff of mind. And you thought it was just a philosophy, hah!)

I think the problem with the LOA as its understood in the west is that it was taken out of context! The movie The Secret talked about the LOA but didn't talk at all about the omnipresent mind. If you wanna talk LOA you have to also start talking about omnipresent mind, whether you consider it a field of consciousness or whether you call it brahman. Does the LOA say the moon didn't exist until there was a human to observe it? No its not saying that. The universe is old, I don't remember, it was something like 14 billion years old right? That's a really long time. And when the LOA is put back into its proper context *eastern spirituality* that's 14 billion years of consciousness, at least. (and according to science there was no time before that!)

The point is, we humans have only been around for a blip of that time. The LOA originates from eastern spirituality so we need to keep it in that proper context. Mind came before humans.

When I go for a nature walk, I don't feel at all that earth is the mind-creation of humans. Actually, of all the organisms out there I think its the plant kingdom that have successfully created a paradise on earth, a paradise for themselves! What else could a poor defenseless plant possibly desire more than to have an animal species pander to its every need? We water them. We feed them. We kill their enemies and then spread their offspring all across the globe. And we do this for 1000's of species that offer us ZERO SUBSISTENCE, so we can't even say its about food because it aint! For many plant species, humans are a dream come true.

And sorry for derailing your thread.

I don't think you are derailing the thread, this is a very interesting discussion even if our points a view are different.
unfortunately, I won't be able to participate anymore for few weeks.
I'll follow the thread anyway.

But the process is very magical.

The classical view of nature and the universe is cool too, and obviously you can feel free to limit yourself to it. This is the magic of disbelief. Similarly, the perspective explored in concepts like LOA are limitless for those seeking that magic, and that magic is there.

Back to the merger,
I was thinking of the imagination (almost has magic in the word itself). All around you right now is ur imagination on display. I used to see the imagination as a lifeless blip, a moments thought. With my dream work I'm beginning to know the imagination as living and real.

There is a spectrum of 'presence' which ranges from the imagination on full display before you now to the imagination that lingers softly as we daydream or think. In this view the entirety of experience is imagination living and breathing. Working to enhance one part of the spectrum will naturally effect the rest

For the average person, their imagination runs wild and untamed. But I challenge you to know you can tame it. A mighty dragon that can work with you rather than on its own accord

Originally Posted by juroara

The same way it works for all conscious beings! Except if you aren't aware of the process than you are creating by "default". Snails, like all animals, desire food, sex, safety. And then there are the things they fear (omg salt). Their lives are a reflection of that.

I agree with you completely! So I don't understand who are you trying to argue against? Nor do I understand your anthropocentrism argument. Who told you the LOA only works for humans?

The LOA is the result of mind. If it has a mind, then it is by default co-creating along with all the other minds. The species doesn't matter. What matters is mind. And its not a choice. The LOA says MIND = LOA. We don't have a choice.

Youre also inferring that people who believe in the LOA they think of it as some sort of magical supernatural process. Errr. Wrong. (its the nay sayers who think that) For people who believe in the LOA they believe it is the most fundamental aspect of reality. Its the nature of consciousness, and we expect science to continue to talk about. The LOA almost always accompanies the belief of an omnipresent consciousness or the belief that reality is the stuff of mind. (For all you atheists rolling your eyes out there, please note that even your atheist buddhism considers reality to be the stuff of mind. And you thought it was just a philosophy, hah!)

I think the problem with the LOA as its understood in the west is that it was taken out of context! The movie The Secret talked about the LOA but didn't talk at all about the omnipresent mind. If you wanna talk LOA you have to also start talking about omnipresent mind, whether you consider it a field of consciousness or whether you call it brahman. Does the LOA say the moon didn't exist until there was a human to observe it? No its not saying that. The universe is old, I don't remember, it was something like 14 billion years old right? That's a really long time. And when the LOA is put back into its proper context *eastern spirituality* that's 14 billion years of consciousness, at least. (and according to science there was no time before that!)

The point is, we humans have only been around for a blip of that time. The LOA originates from eastern spirituality so we need to keep it in that proper context. Mind came before humans.

When I go for a nature walk, I don't feel at all that earth is the mind-creation of humans. Actually, of all the organisms out there I think its the plant kingdom that have successfully created a paradise on earth, a paradise for themselves! What else could a poor defenseless plant possibly desire more than to have an animal species pander to its every need? We water them. We feed them. We kill their enemies and then spread their offspring all across the globe. And we do this for 1000's of species that offer us ZERO SUBSISTENCE, so we can't even say its about food because it aint! For many plant species, humans are a dream come true.

And sorry for derailing your thread.

Don't think you have derailed it at all. To be honest I couldn't have said it better myself =)

Originally Posted by Wisher

But the process is very magical.

The classical view of nature and the universe is cool too, and obviously you can feel free to limit yourself to it. This is the magic of disbelief. Similarly, the perspective explored in concepts like LOA are limitless for those seeking that magic, and that magic is there.

Back to the merger,
I was thinking of the imagination (almost has magic in the word itself). All around you right now is ur imagination on display. I used to see the imagination as a lifeless blip, a moments thought. With my dream work I'm beginning to know the imagination as living and real.

There is a spectrum of 'presence' which ranges from the imagination on full display before you now to the imagination that lingers softly as we daydream or think. In this view the entirety of experience is imagination living and breathing. Working to enhance one part of the spectrum will naturally effect the rest

For the average person, their imagination runs wild and untamed. But I challenge you to know you can tame it. A mighty dragon that can work with you rather than on its own accord

It's also amazing how daydreams can be really powerful and pull you in so much that you are usually shaken out of it. For the brain both experiences (waking and dreaming/daydreaming) are happening and are valid. So I'm wondering what kind of things do you and anyone else here do to tame your imagination and build a relationship with this 'presence' in waking life. Or even Dream control techniques that could potentially be transferred to waking. That would be interesting.

@wisher - I haven't been able to check the thread you mentioned for me on pm, what sort of things are mentioned there for waking control?

You may have already read it but there is this user forum by The Cusp that I really like. It covers Dream Control and its essentially good whether you think you are awake or asleep:
http://www.dreamviews.com/nature-dream-control/

I don't think I've found a better universal theory for dream control in any book, movie or online. If any of you know any other good guides it would be great to hear of them

This is some really good stuff. Oh yeah another thing I have read and have been implementing in my life is to journal waking life. Waking life is easier to journal so I have every single day since I started some months ago whilst dreams I still pick and choose. What is interesting is how when going through the day you will often find some major 'Symbolism' or 'Omen' just like in dreams that stand out and you know that it is of great significance. From what I read and the reason I do this is to potentially make the task of becoming lucid easier since when we dream there are often some residue. Can't say it has helped in this sense but I also see it as a way of maintaining a record of events for the whole day; maintaining awareness throughout the whole time as opposed to only what we bring back from dreams. It is also a good memory exercise.