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    Thread: I say, use big data ...

    1. #1
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      I say, use big data ...

      Dreamviewers should be encouraged to put as much detail as possible into their dream journals ... and certainly any anomolous "proper noun-like" facts.

      I dream a lot. It is all anomalous, full color, other worldly. I see scenes not seen here. Ships. Planes. Beings. Craft. Buildings. Landscapes. Hi-def. Other worlds. Not even from the movies. Not your traditional low-res neuro-auto-generated black and white dreamscape.

      My hypothesis is that, in fact, through dreams, some of us may read / look into the multiverse.

      I humbly submit that, if enough people put enough detail into their dream journals, focusing on "proper nouns", or just names, we can use big data scans to find common results among different dreamers.

      The finding of even a single instance of anomalous common terms among different dreamers will support the hypothesis that we are separately seeing the multiverse (and some equally weird hypotheses, consistent or not).

      From my own dreams, I offer:

      - "Abulaffia" ... scene in dark anigraphic scenes, throwing stones to N into metallic dish ...
      - the Emperor's Antimatter Alliance with the Other Side - seen in deep space, 2 characters meeting in anigraphic space, after float/fly into ultrablack deep space honeycomde
      - talking dogs on bright anigraphic hillside,

      The lack of such finding will fail to support the hypothesis. But because of the limits of the database (it is not infinite, can't 'prove the negative‘), that will not finally refute it.

      Thanks,

      PQ.
      Last edited by Posquant; 10-09-2016 at 04:01 PM.
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      "I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it.

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      I like the idea, but I'm not sure I'm ready to assess the results. I don't dream quite like you do, but I *do* sometimes get pretty in depth with my descriptions.

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      I dream like you, I go to schools in my dreams and can flick threw 100's of dreamscapes at once. I lack control but it's 'real' seriously real

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      A single instance of a match of anything hardly qualifies as evidence. Simple chance alone demands at least a single instance of a match. For all we know, some people just have similar tastes in words they use to name or describe things. Language by nature is very limited, and makes any findings suspect in terms of legitimacy.

      In any case, you need several instances of matching terms to deem the matching as anything more than simple chance. Even then, what control do we have that we can set up to determine the matches to be evidence supporting the multiverse hypothesis you've come up with? While we're trying to rely on data and a scientific experiment here (which is admirable to be sure; too often in Beyond Dreaming there are people who aren't interested in collecting real data, suggest others should do it for them, or say that the nature of what's being studied can't be proven with the experiments we have at our disposal currently because we lack the technology or something to that effect), we have to go all the way here. To assume even multiple matches are indeed being caused by us viewing the multiverse, we need a way to control for any variables we believe might be causing any of the matches other than viewing a multiverse. Unfortunately, I really have no idea how to do that.

      Now, I know you're not saying (rather wisely) that this is proof of viewing a multiverse when dreaming, but rather it's evidence that supports it. Since there is literally no evidence supporting it right now, I suppose even weak evidence may help garner interest in more conclusive testing. However, dream journal entries are nothing more than anecdotes. Not only do we have zero controls set up for the vast array of variables likely at play here, anecdotal evidence really doesn't amount to anything in a scientific study unless we're talking about the subjective effects of a drug under going clinical trials or something.

      Quote Originally Posted by Posquant View Post
      I dream a lot. It is all anomalous, full color, other worldly. I see scenes not seen here. Ships. Planes. Beings. Craft. Buildings. Landscapes. Hi-def. Other worlds. Not even from the movies. Not your traditional low-res neuro-auto-generated black and white dreamscape.
      I have to ask, have you ever actually dreamt in black and white before? I've heard people say they do, but I haven't had a single instance of a black and white dream before. As far as I can tell, it's not something a majority of people experienced except the generation that grew up watching black and white television. Most of my dreams are highly abstract, or very vivid but has very crazy, strange, bizarre, and otherwise random things happen the whole time. Sometimes I really can't understand how utterly different they can be from anything I've experienced in waking reality. However, I really don't think I'm viewing a multiverse. For one, why do the various natural laws suddenly change in dreams without a scene change to accompany it? You might say we could be viewing it remotely, but what about the times I'm physically affected by these changes and have a body? If you're going to say some universes might have constantly changing rules or something to that effect, I say you're straining my credulity in your argument. We are quite certain that if certain variables were off just a bit, our reality may not have even formed matter, or at least not have produced as many elements as we see. If in a different universe, the natural laws were shifting regularly, nothing complex would be able to form, if anything could at all. Another thing, at times I switch which person I am in a dream between people in the scene, and at other times just change who I am without switching any perspectives and don't realize I changed until I woke up. How would something like this happen?

      Frankly, the vivid, bizarre, sometimes abstract, and utterly random experiences I have is exactly what rules out the idea that we are viewing a multiverse for me, rather than makes me believe that's what is going on.
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      Right on

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      A single instance of a match of anything hardly qualifies as evidence. Simple chance alone demands at least a single instance of a match. For all we know, some people just have similar tastes in words they use to name or describe things. Language by nature is very limited, and makes any findings suspect in terms of legitimacy.

      In any case, you need several instances of matching terms to deem the matching as anything more than simple chance. Even then, what control do we have that we can set up to determine the matches to be evidence supporting the multiverse hypothesis you've come up with? While we're trying to rely on data and a scientific experiment here (which is admirable to be sure; too often in Beyond Dreaming there are people who aren't interested in collecting real data, suggest others should do it for them, or say that the nature of what's being studied can't be proven with the experiments we have at our disposal currently because we lack the technology or something to that effect), we have to go all the way here. To assume even multiple matches are indeed being caused by us viewing the multiverse, we need a way to control for any variables we believe might be causing any of the matches other than viewing a multiverse. Unfortunately, I really have no idea how to do that.

      Now, I know you're not saying (rather wisely) that this is proof of viewing a multiverse when dreaming, but rather it's evidence that supports it. Since there is literally no evidence supporting it right now, I suppose even weak evidence may help garner interest in more conclusive testing. However, dream journal entries are nothing more than anecdotes. Not only do we have zero controls set up for the vast array of variables likely at play here, anecdotal evidence really doesn't amount to anything in a scientific study unless we're talking about the subjective effects of a drug under going clinical trials or something.
      All agreed. It's just a hypothesis. Personally ... I need an explanation. But I still think that the big data exercise could be interesting. It would be a start.

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      I have to ask, have you ever actually dreamt in black and white before? I've heard people say they do, but I haven't had a single instance of a black and white dream before. As far as I can tell, it's not something a majority of people experienced except the generation that grew up watching black and white television. Most of my dreams are highly abstract, or very vivid but has very crazy, strange, bizarre, and otherwise random things happen the whole time. Sometimes I really can't understand how utterly different they can be from anything I've experienced in waking reality. However, I really don't think I'm viewing a multiverse. For one, why do the various natural laws suddenly change in dreams without a scene change to accompany it? You might say we could be viewing it remotely, but what about the times I'm physically affected by these changes and have a body? If you're going to say some universes might have constantly changing rules or something to that effect, I say you're straining my credulity in your argument. We are quite certain that if certain variables were off just a bit, our reality may not have even formed matter, or at least not have produced as many elements as we see. If in a different universe, the natural laws were shifting regularly, nothing complex would be able to form, if anything could at all. Another thing, at times I switch which person I am in a dream between people in the scene, and at other times just change who I am without switching any perspectives and don't realize I changed until I woke up. How would something like this happen?

      Frankly, the vivid, bizarre, sometimes abstract, and utterly random experiences I have is exactly what rules out the idea that we are viewing a multiverse for me, rather than makes me believe that's what is going on.
      Different strokes for different folks?

      I don't recall dreaming in b&w. Maybe I did in childhood. But the anomalous dreams I describe only started in my adulthood, after some conceptual growth. There is interesting research suggesting that people who viewed B&W TV dreamed in B&W, and that those raised on color TV dream in color: Black and white TV generation have monochrome dreams - Telegraph
      "I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it.

      Albert Einstein

      "http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.jpg"

    6. #6
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      As a fellow and consistent dreamer of places, people, and things that are utterly unrelated to my waking life (I even started a thread long ago about it, which you can find here, if you're curious -- feel free to necro!), I think your proposed study might yield some interesting results, Posquant. But:

      Though I have a feeling the results might not quite prove your hypothesis, holistically studying tens of thousands of dreams posted by thousands of dedicated dreamers (hopefully posted honestly and thoroughly, he says, with a nod to Snoop's post) could offer up a stunning buffet of the similar archetypes, actions, goals, and as yet undiscovered qualities that the dreamers and LD'er's who populate our little niche may share. And I won't even mention the psychological insights that such mass interpretations of dreams might yield, because that is a little off topic (and more than a little scary).

      So responsible global analysis of the DJ files might be a very good idea indeed. However:

      Given that, from what I understand about multiverse theory, travel of any kind between universes is, mathematically speaking, necessarily impossible, visits to the multiverse may be least likely explanation for similarities among dream reports. There may be other reasons for we might be sharing such imagery -- and there may be reasons why that shared imagery is so strange to each of us individually; other reasons that might be a bit more plausible, or at least less equally weird, than travel between universes:

      * Have you ever read C.G. Jung's Man and His Symbols? If not, you might give it (and Jung's other work on dreams) a look. Archetypes have a way of presenting themselves in unusual or incomplete manners, sometimes in ways that simply make no sense to us, but might be perfectly clear to another dreamer. I believe that new archetypes are being created all the time, especially among consciously curious folks like LD'ers (i.e., I doubt Jung would have found much meaning in a finger passing through a palm, but we LD'ers all know what that means without a thought), but perhaps we as individual dreamers haven't quite yet ironed out the odd symbolism that might define them.

      * There is a chance that some dreams carry no real meaning or "deeper" content at all, that they're often just random imagery thrown out by a resting and otherwise occupied brain. That randomness can create imagery that seems to have nothing at all to do with your waking-life, regardless of its quality, simply because in the process of perceiving this senseless stuff you are making perceptual judgments or creating worlds that make the random imagery more understandable or consciously palatable. Upon waking, you will tend to do this even more as your memory organizes it for filing away. This concept probably needs a few thousand words to better describe, but suffice it to say that strange sh*t simply happening in dreams -- sh*t similarly interpreted by similar people (LD'er's) -- is a much more plausible explanation for your strange dreams than visits to other universes.

      * Less likely, but certainly more reasonable to me is that you might actually be visiting other people's dreams rather than other universes; sort of an inadvertent dip into the cosmic consciousness dream ocean, should such a thing exist. If this were to be the case, I think your study might go a long way towards proving it, rather than your hypothesis. For instance, you might find the worlds you are visiting to be quite strange, but they might line up exactly with what another dreamer finds quite familiar, and you just happened to witness her dreamworld. Again, if you're curious, I think this had some interesting discussion on that thread I linked to above.

      I could probably think of a few other more plausible explanations for your experiences, but I guess the bottom line here is that this study is an excellent idea, but you might find its results might vary wildly from your expectations. Maybe you should PM OpheliaBlue to see if such a study would even be possible, or legal...
      Last edited by Sageous; 10-28-2016 at 11:54 PM.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Given that, from what I understand about multiverse theory, travel of any kind between universes is, mathematically speaking, necessarily impossible, visits to the multiverse may be least likely explanation for similarities among dream reports.
      Agree with everything you've said, save this, which isn't necessarily true. Supersrtring theory suggests that there are higher dimensions than what we can perceive unaided. We all know the three regular spacial and the one temporal that we actually experience, but the 5th dimension contains possible worlds or alternate timelines. To use a spacial metaphor, if time goes forward (and maybe backwards) this would be the equivalent of going left and right through time. 6th is just a plane of all possible worlds with the same start conditions. Up and down. Presumably, this would allow travel to any of the timelines instantly and without needing to "manually walk" through progressively separate worlds, but I may be making that bit up.

      7 would give us all different worlds with the same physics but different start conditions (more matter, less energy, less or more of both etc.). 8 is a plane of all this stuff, similar to 6, but "higher". Infinites apparently start appearing at this stage. 9 is possible worlds, with different start conditions and now accounting for different laws of physics. 10 is a plane of this infinite number of infinites and because we literally can't pretend to understand anything "above" this, it is for all intents and purposes the totality of reality. (and that's a phrase I never tire of saying.)

      The important (and actually relevant) points of all this is that, firstly, these dimensions, one way or another, are sort of compacted into the same whole or are "connected" if you like. Secondly, and this is also a point to Snoop's 4th paragraph, its entirely possible that "all possible physical laws" could allow for blantantly (from our perspective) nonsensical or even contradictory physical laws and mutable physical laws that would, in turn, allow for the more chaotic dreams, assuming they are connected to these other worlds. An infinite number of possibilities would also account for the possibility of a species developing a sufficiently high technology level to actually travel amongst these dimensions. Maybe possibilities can interfere with themselves.

      Of couse, all this could have resulted in a world (which we happen to live in) where dreams are a relatively mundane phenomenom, a world where dreams are mundane, but theres's enough false evidence to lead us to believe the opposite and a world where dreams are gateways or windows or whatever, but we would never know because there's nothing to suggest it.

      At any rate, a study of this sort would probably be interesting regardless of where it leads, so, if anyone cares (and if I have any legal say in the matter to begin with) my journel is up for grabs.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post

      * Have you ever read C.G. Jung's Man and His Symbols? If not, you might give it (and Jung's other work on dreams) a look. Archetypes have a way of presenting themselves in unusual or incomplete manners, sometimes in ways that simply make no sense to us, but might be perfectly clear to another dreamer. I believe that new archetypes are being created all the time, especially among consciously curious folks like LD'ers (i.e., I doubt Jung would have found much meaning in a finger passing through a palm, but we LD'ers all know what that means without a thought), but perhaps we as individual dreamers haven't quite yet ironed out the odd symbolism that might define them.
      That's interesting, I've realised that my dreams are often Archetypes, I reacently found a page with dreams I'd had 2012-2013 reading them all threw at once I could see how they fit together into a Hero's/Fools journey threw the Archetypes/ Major Arcana

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      Quote Originally Posted by splodeymissile View Post
      Agree with everything you've said, save this, which isn't necessarily true. Supersrtring theory suggests that there are higher dimensions than what we can perceive unaided. We all know the three regular spacial and the one temporal that we actually experience, but the 5th dimension contains possible worlds or alternate timelines. To use a spacial metaphor, if time goes forward (and maybe backwards) this would be the equivalent of going left and right through time. 6th is just a plane of all possible worlds with the same start conditions. Up and down. Presumably, this would allow travel to any of the timelines instantly and without needing to "manually walk" through progressively separate worlds, but I may be making that bit up.

      7 would give us all different worlds with the same physics but different start conditions (more matter, less energy, less or more of both etc.). 8 is a plane of all this stuff, similar to 6, but "higher". Infinites apparently start appearing at this stage. 9 is possible worlds, with different start conditions and now accounting for different laws of physics. 10 is a plane of this infinite number of infinites and because we literally can't pretend to understand anything "above" this, it is for all intents and purposes the totality of reality. (and that's a phrase I never tire of saying.)

      The important (and actually relevant) points of all this is that, firstly, these dimensions, one way or another, are sort of compacted into the same whole or are "connected" if you like. Secondly, and this is also a point to Snoop's 4th paragraph, its entirely possible that "all possible physical laws" could allow for blantantly (from our perspective) nonsensical or even contradictory physical laws and mutable physical laws that would, in turn, allow for the more chaotic dreams, assuming they are connected to these other worlds. An infinite number of possibilities would also account for the possibility of a species developing a sufficiently high technology level to actually travel amongst these dimensions. Maybe possibilities can interfere with themselves.

      Of couse, all this could have resulted in a world (which we happen to live in) where dreams are a relatively mundane phenomenom, a world where dreams are mundane, but theres's enough false evidence to lead us to believe the opposite and a world where dreams are gateways or windows or whatever, but we would never know because there's nothing to suggest it.

      At any rate, a study of this sort would probably be interesting regardless of where it leads, so, if anyone cares (and if I have any legal say in the matter to begin with) my journel is up for grabs.
      I dream in pictures, but have experienced a WILD were I could move up and down threw layers of reality.. From a false awakening type dream were I was aware of the bed I was in but people were coming in and out talking to me, threw several dreams were I knew I was all of the characters in the dream but they didn't know they were me.
      When I woke up I had the image of the mandala in my head.

      KalachakraSera.jpgrainbow_onion_by_zethiskatana-d4h0myn.jpg

      I didn't go from that dream into the no body type of dream were I'm just awareness in a void manipulating stuff.... but it made me aware of how we pass threw 'layers' 'Dimensions'

    10. #10
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      Yeah Buddy.

      Well said.

      My working hypothesis: human brains are quantum computers ... superluminal ... multiversal ... multidimensional.

      But here's the thing.

      Access to the multiverse is selective.

      That's by design (my design, if not others).

      Here's my idea: access is defined by a power curve relating (1)knowledge, (2)) power (overlapping with 1), and (3) ethics.

      So... most humans, and our systems, are under quarantine, at any given time, in our time frames, given our low cumulative scores.

      So it goes.
      "I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it.

      Albert Einstein

      "http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.jpg"

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