Thread: Fear of death...GONE!!!!!

Originally Posted by Sageous

A small interruption... I've heard the following bit of wisdom several times recently:



What does that even mean? That, because we did not exist before we existed, then we will not exist after we exist? That because we once (necessarily) did not care about existence, or rather non-existence, that we need not care about it now? That, when we did not exist, we didn't think about coming life, so now that we do exist, we should not ponder our death? That, because we didn't exist once, we are not permitted to exist again? Or maybe that because it at some point did not exist, our living consciousness is incapable of building something that might survive the death of its corporeal creator and vehicle? Or perhaps that because we once didn't exist, the nature of our current existence is irrelevant, no matter what we think? Or does it mean something else altogether?

I don't know; I have a feeling it means nothing at all. It just sounds cool, like something a stoned college student would say at 3am, to the astonishment of his equally stoned buddies. Thinking that we did not exist before we were born and then attaching the obvious fact that, since we didn't exist, we could not care about that non-existence, seems absurd to me, and does nothing to sway or temper a current concern about death.

Why should the fact that we didn't know or fear anything before we were born hold any sway at all about what we're thinking about now that we are born, have an identity, and perhaps might wonder bout what happens to us after death? It might sound pretty, or even logical, but it really means nothing.

Also, let's say there is something after death, some form of survival of consciousness. Why would that survival be negated because we once did not exist?

So you believe our consciousness goes on forever? Our consciousness generated by our brain? The brain that rots out? I know what you mean, though, but let's alter your theory in consensus to make sense.

Your memories go on in spirit form and go on forever. You aren't aware about your informal spirit, but when a new baby comes along, that spirit is in the birthed baby. You start a new life, but you don't remember anything from before. That's where De Ja Vu comes into play. "I strangely remember doing this..." because the ancestor did it.

I still choose to believe nonexistence, but I fixed your theory.

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71

LOL really now?? Im sorry buddy, your argument doesnt hold up. That dinosaur friend is nearly imagination. Spiritual stuff happens in experiences, not imagination. Two totally different things. See why your argument doesnt hold water? You are taking something that NO ONE believes in, nor has anyone else experienced. With the spiritual realm, many have experienced it. As for the EVP, what is your proof that they are all fake or made? From your point of view, you are kinda taking the side of a schizophrenic, but of course only the imagination part, not the strong hallucinations that come with it. the word "phenomena" is in the acronym for a reason, it cant be explained, but people have definitely experienced it in real time and not in their head

They only "experience" it because people have heard very, very old tales about them. They only have more merit than my dino because things that go bump in the night have been heard from people for generations, because there's no such thing as leaving a window open that happened to be around a strong wind current and knocking a lamp over. Nope, spirits had to be fighting over ownership of the haunting ground and knocked each other into the lamp. Know what my dino and your spirits have in common? There's no evidence for either of them, and people will give you a funny look if you mention them. If someone just ran up to you and said "THEY ARE WATCHING. BE GOOD OR YOU WILL DIE, MORTAL." Who wouldn't think that's a schizophrenic dog who needs to be put down? Seriously, who would believe someone who said they saw strange ghosts without thinking immediately of a schizophrenic?

Originally Posted by EzioAuditore

They only "experience" it because people have heard very, very old tales about them. They only have more merit than my dino because things that go bump in the night have been heard from people for generations, because there's no such thing as leaving a window open that happened to be around a strong wind current and knocking a lamp over. Nope, spirits had to be fighting over ownership of the haunting ground and knocked each other into the lamp. Know what my dino and your spirits have in common? There's no evidence for either of them, and people will give you a funny look if you mention them. If someone just ran up to you and said "THEY ARE WATCHING. BE GOOD OR YOU WILL DIE, MORTAL." Who wouldn't think that's a schizophrenic dog who needs to be put down? Seriously, who would believe someone who said they saw strange ghosts without thinking immediately of a schizophrenic?

So then clearly you've never heard of exorcisms, hauntings, or anything along the subject? Oh wait, I guess millions of people are lying about their experiences that have terrorized them just for the fun of it. Great thinking pal, good to know you are calling many people liars who have been traumatized by events like those. They dont make up stories for the fun of it buddy, 90 percent of them dont even want anything, they just tell their stories. Now I am saying that no one lies? Of course not, if you can profit from something, you can bet people will do their best to do it. But that by no means are all of the other millions of people lying. That would be pointless. You are among the few, that even though millions of people have had supernatural, or haunted encounters, you still decide that its a joke. Being blind, or simply just denying the fact of such things is just ignorance. But hey, Im not meaning to start anything man, believe what you want.

Originally Posted by Sageous

A small interruption... I've heard the following bit of wisdom several times recently:



What does that even mean? That, because we did not exist before we existed, then we will not exist after we exist? That because we once (necessarily) did not care about existence, or rather non-existence, that we need not care about it now? That, when we did not exist, we didn't think about coming life, so now that we do exist, we should not ponder our death? That, because we didn't exist once, we are not permitted to exist again? Or maybe that because it at some point did not exist, our living consciousness is incapable of building something that might survive the death of its corporeal creator and vehicle? Or perhaps that because we once didn't exist, the nature of our current existence is irrelevant, no matter what we think? Or does it mean something else altogether?

I don't know; I have a feeling it means nothing at all. It just sounds cool, like something a stoned college student would say at 3am, to the astonishment of his equally stoned buddies. Thinking that we did not exist before we were born and then attaching the obvious fact that, since we didn't exist, we could not care about that non-existence, seems absurd to me, and does nothing to sway or temper a current concern about death.

Why should the fact that we didn't know or fear anything before we were born hold any sway at all about what we're thinking about now that we are born, have an identity, and perhaps might wonder bout what happens to us after death? It might sound pretty, or even logical, but it really means nothing.

Also, let's say there is something after death, some form of survival of consciousness. Why would that survival be negated because we once did not exist?

This would make sense, but our consciousness is purely brain functions, or what a lot of people would label as neurons. We sense a self, but it is our brain and self awareness, and when we die, our brains die, and we lose that. Our brain is not a vehicle to self, it IS self! At least this is what I think.

So I stand with the concept of the bundle ego

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71 View Post
So then clearly you've never heard of exorcisms, hauntings, or anything along the subject? Oh wait, I guess millions of people are lying about their experiences that have terrorized them just for the fun of it. Great thinking pal, good to know you are calling many people liars who have been traumatized by events like those. They dont make up stories for the fun of it buddy, 90 percent of them dont even want anything, they just tell their stories. Now I am saying that no one lies? Of course not, if you can profit from something, you can bet people will do their best to do it. But that by no means are all of the other millions of people lying. That would be pointless. You are among the few, that even though millions of people have had supernatural, or haunted encounters, you still decide that its a joke. Being blind, or simply just denying the fact of such things is just ignorance. But hey, Im not meaning to start anything man, believe what you want.

They aren't lying, they just misinterpret.
Our perception works largely through associations. When people believe in ghosts, they tend to 'know' that a ghost came, instead of using another rational explanation. Ghosts are higher up their schemas list.
As for cases were these people encounter supernatural beings directly, we can explain it by a lot of things, like:
_Halosinations
_OBE (LD version lol)
_Drugs(?)

Also, if supernatural encounters happened in our 'plane' it means these ghosts, or whatever, have turned into physical beings(at least temporarily). So never have they left any trace? Not even some kind of new element we have never discovered?

I'm sorry but supernatural doesn't exist not just because it most likely was ancient stories, but also because there are a lot of evidence showing that encounters never happened.

I used to be afraid of death. Then I took shrooms.

Originally Posted by Sageous

A small interruption... I've heard the following bit of wisdom several times recently:



What does that even mean? That, because we did not exist before we existed, then we will not exist after we exist? That because we once (necessarily) did not care about existence, or rather non-existence, that we need not care about it now? That, when we did not exist, we didn't think about coming life, so now that we do exist, we should not ponder our death? That, because we didn't exist once, we are not permitted to exist again? Or maybe that because it at some point did not exist, our living consciousness is incapable of building something that might survive the death of its corporeal creator and vehicle? Or perhaps that because we once didn't exist, the nature of our current existence is irrelevant, no matter what we think? Or does it mean something else altogether?

I don't know; I have a feeling it means nothing at all. It just sounds cool, like something a stoned college student would say at 3am, to the astonishment of his equally stoned buddies. Thinking that we did not exist before we were born and then attaching the obvious fact that, since we didn't exist, we could not care about that non-existence, seems absurd to me, and does nothing to sway or temper a current concern about death.

Why should the fact that we didn't know or fear anything before we were born hold any sway at all about what we're thinking about now that we are born, have an identity, and perhaps might wonder bout what happens to us after death? It might sound pretty, or even logical, but it really means nothing.

Also, let's say there is something after death, some form of survival of consciousness. Why would that survival be negated because we once did not exist?

You mean the people who didn't get to live a life? The stillborns? The people who were never taken into the corporeal realm? Your brain needs to develop a personality, and that usually begins at age 3. I'm not sure about people who died before 3 or just weren't alive at all.

^^ That's the second time you responded to the same post, and again your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I made no theories, professed no beliefs, and certainly wasn't talking about stillborns. I don't know where you're getting this stuff from (it was a fairly simple post with obvious meaning), and can only assume you are baiting me. I don't think I'll bite, thanks.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

They aren't lying, they just misinterpret.
Our perception works largely through associations. When people believe in ghosts, they tend to 'know' that a ghost came, instead of using another rational explanation. Ghosts are higher up their schemas list.
As for cases were these people encounter supernatural beings directly, we can explain it by a lot of things, like:
_Halosinations
_OBE (LD version lol)
_Drugs(?)

Also, if supernatural encounters happened in our 'plane' it means these ghosts, or whatever, have turned into physical beings(at least temporarily). So never have they left any trace? Not even some kind of new element we have never discovered?

I'm sorry but supernatural doesn't exist not just because it most likely was ancient stories, but also because there are a lot of evidence showing that encounters never happened.

So you are still calling millions of people liars? That's a bit irrational-especially since a huge percentage of those who have had those experiences were completely healthy in the mind and were also completely awake(for the Hypnagogic stuff not to be a possibility) and also many of them did not believe in ghosts prior to their experience. So the schema's you are talking about were not present. Of course, maybe for some, but to say that for millions of people would not make sense. The supernatural "beings" never fully come to this realm, they manifest in the form of energy at most times so there is not much of a trace. However they can cause changes in temperature wherever they are, and stuff along that line. So no, I guarantee you, millions of people are not having just simple hallucinations,OBE's, or doing drugs. However as I said before, some of them could be, and there is no doubt that a percentage of them are. But that is not a good enough explanation for millions of experiences.

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71

So you are still calling millions of people liars? That's a bit irrational-especially since a huge percentage of those who have had those experiences were completely healthy in the mind and were also completely awake(for the Hypnagogic stuff not to be a possibility) and also many of them did not believe in ghosts prior to their experience. So the schema's you are talking about were not present. Of course, maybe for some, but to say that for millions of people would not make sense. The supernatural "beings" never fully come to this realm, they manifest in the form of energy at most times so there is not much of a trace. However they can cause changes in temperature wherever they are, and stuff along that line. So no, I guarantee you, millions of people are not having just simple hallucinations,OBE's, or doing drugs. However as I said before, some of them could be, and there is no doubt that a percentage of them are. But that is not a good enough explanation for millions of experiences.

Still doesn't make sense though.
Energy can't be destroyed nor created, it only changes. Some theories even say that matter is energy but that vibrates slowly.

Heat is not enough, you can't say a ghost exists if the room temperature changed, plus there are many many NATURAL mechanics in us that may cause us to think we saw something weird even while wide awake, sober, and not even believing in supernatural occurances.

Also, most of them say they SAW a ghost, which means forming a solid object, which is weird for creatures who can go through walls.

Again, they didn't leave any trace?! You said they partially come to this realm (which is weird, wouldn't this creature die if it had only half it's body present in it's realm? I assume the half body in our realm can't be compatible with the other half in the other realm. It's like if half your body is asleep and the other half is awake. Both are alive but bodily functions would become impaired, thus leading to death, unless you mean it comes to our real but still has a connection to it's own realm, allowing it to go back. I never knew other realms follow our logic, it's obvious ghosts are stories started by man).

Plus I doubt what you said about a lot of these people seeing ghosts or whatever while they are sober, healthy, and wide awake. How much would you say, like 20%? I say like 2%.

I'm willing to believe in supernatural, if they exist already in our 'realm'. I would consider them more like aliens, who also laws of physics apply to them too. But ghosts from other realms? This is just impossible! Millions of people sworn to seeing the gods while wide awake before. Did they?!
I'm sorry but I consider this impossible, unless you want me to consider the impossible, which I would, but I like to believe that the laws of the universe we now know are true, and I'm sure ghosts don't break those law.

It has to be a stronger case than supernatural for me to start to consider the impossible (don't forget, impossible is only impossible universal laws wise, and unless these laws are broken, the impossible stays impossible, and this supernatural case is far too vulnerable to different elements to be considered a solid candidate to breaking the current laws of the universe known to man).

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Still doesn't make sense though.
Energy can't be destroyed nor created, it only changes. Some theories even say that matter is energy but that vibrates slowly.

Heat is not enough, you can't say a ghost exists if the room temperature changed, plus there are many many NATURAL mechanics in us that may cause us to think we saw something weird even while wide awake, sober, and not even believing in supernatural occurances.

Also, most of them say they SAW a ghost, which means forming a solid object, which is weird for creatures who can go through walls.

Again, they didn't leave any trace?! You said they partially come to this realm (which is weird, wouldn't this creature die if it had only half it's body present in it's realm? I assume the half body in our realm can't be compatible with the other half in the other realm. It's like if half your body is asleep and the other half is awake. Both are alive but bodily functions would become impaired, thus leading to death, unless you mean it comes to our real but still has a connection to it's own realm, allowing it to go back. I never knew other realms follow our logic, it's obvious ghosts are stories started by man).

Plus I doubt what you said about a lot of these people seeing ghosts or whatever while they are sober, healthy, and wide awake. How much would you say, like 20%? I say like 2%.

I'm willing to believe in supernatural, if they exist already in our 'realm'. I would consider them more like aliens, who also laws of physics apply to them too. But ghosts from other realms? This is just impossible! Millions of people sworn to seeing the gods while wide awake before. Did they?!
I'm sorry but I consider this impossible, unless you want me to consider the impossible, which I would, but I like to believe that the laws of the universe we now know are true, and I'm sure ghosts don't break those law.

It has to be a stronger case than supernatural for me to start to consider the impossible (don't forget, impossible is only impossible universal laws wise, and unless these laws are broken, the impossible stays impossible, and this supernatural case is far too vulnerable to different elements to be considered a solid candidate to breaking the current laws of the universe known to man).

You do realize that beings of other dimensions do not follow the rules of physics or the rules in general of our dimension right? You dont have to understand it in order for it to exist. They leave traces such as voices, temperature drops, moving objects. Other than that there is no trace left permanent by their "body". In order for the sober to add up to 2% then millions upon millions of people would have to be doing hallucinogenic drugs. Fact is, half the people in the world are against them, so you're percentage is incorrect. Man hasnt even explored deep space yet beyond our own galaxy, so what makes you think they know it all?

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71

You do realize that beings of other dimensions do not follow the rules of physics or the rules in general of our dimension right? You dont have to understand it in order for it to exist. They leave traces such as voices, temperature drops, moving objects. Other than that there is no trace left permanent by their "body". In order for the sober to add up to 2% then millions upon millions of people would have to be doing hallucinogenic drugs. Fact is, half the people in the world are against them, so you're percentage is incorrect. Man hasnt even explored deep space yet beyond our own galaxy, so what makes you think they know it all?

So no proof except stories and mundane after effects.
Again, people used to 'see gods and angels', millions, tens of millions of people........
This case is no different. Very bad proof and logic, logic based on GHOST TALES! "Ghosts don't follow our laws of physics", "ghosts are from different realms".
People seem to know a lot of facts about ghosts, stories from long times ago, seeings and indications as unreliable and unsolid as a net cup. These are only tales, and yes, most likely people are mistaken. Ever watched tests to see if certain pre planned signals fool people into thinking ghosts passed? Well yes they do, and the fooled test subject completely believed ghosts passed.

It's more likely ghosts aren't visiting us.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

So no proof except stories and mundane after effects.
Again, people used to 'see gods and angels', millions, tens of millions of people........
This case is no different. Very bad proof and logic, logic based on GHOST TALES! "Ghosts don't follow our laws of physics", "ghosts are from different realms".
People seem to know a lot of facts about ghosts, stories from long times ago, seeings and indications as unreliable and unsolid as a net cup. These are only tales, and yes, most likely people are mistaken. Ever watched tests to see if certain pre planned signals fool people into thinking ghosts passed? Well yes they do, and the fooled test subject completely believed ghosts passed.

It's more likely ghosts aren't visiting us.

So you are presuming that this is the case no matter what? thats kind of arrogant. As I just said, man does NOT know everything. Its nice to know that people think they have all the answers nowadays. Chances are you DONT have all the answers and you dont know all the facts. Unless you've really studied ghosts and other supernatural phenomena deeply, chances are you know barely anything about the subject. You can go ahead and trash all of what Ive said, but that doesnt make it fake. HOW are you going to automatically diss the existence of something you know nothing about? Really I am curious since you seem to have all the answers here about all of the rules of every dimension. Beings from different dimensions are not going to follow our laws because they are NOT from our dimension. I dont think you understand that point. Its not bad logic as you are calling it; only a confession that we do not know how they work, or how they exist. You cannot trash all phenomena as such by only providing the results of one test. Did you think that would convince me? Im starting to feel like im being trolled. Unless you've witnessed and were present in every situation in this world where such phenomena was involved, you cannot speak for them. Im not trying to sound like a dick here either. It just stuns me when people think they have all the answers. By the way, it would be nice if you could answer the question from my last post, I saw you ignored it.

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71

So you are presuming that this is the case no matter what? thats kind of arrogant. As I just said, man does NOT know everything. Its nice to know that people think they have all the answers nowadays. Chances are you DONT have all the answers and you dont know all the facts. Unless you've really studied ghosts and other supernatural phenomena deeply, chances are you know barely anything about the subject. You can go ahead and trash all of what Ive said, but that doesnt make it fake. HOW are you going to automatically diss the existence of something you know nothing about? Really I am curious since you seem to have all the answers here about all of the rules of every dimension. Beings from different dimensions are not going to follow our laws because they are NOT from our dimension. I dont think you understand that point. Its not bad logic as you are calling it; only a confession that we do not know how they work, or how they exist. You cannot trash all phenomena as such by only providing the results of one test. Did you think that would convince me? Im starting to feel like im being trolled. Unless you've witnessed and were present in every situation in this world where such phenomena was involved, you cannot speak for them. Im not trying to sound like a dick here either. It just stuns me when people think they have all the answers. By the way, it would be nice if you could answer the question from my last post, I saw you ignored it.

I'm not dissing the phenomenon, I'm just saying that it most likely is just based on stories created by man.

Plus, one thing you can't use in a debate is telling me I don't know anything about ghosts. Of course I don't, because we are arguing if they exist or not.

Also, ghost dimension doesn't follow our rules, but don't you think it does when it comes to our realm? We can't even physicaly know and feel it's presence if it doesn't.

Of course we don't know everything, but in this case it's either the supernatural exists with no sense, not even the capability for us to see or feel them and yet we do, or it's based on stories.

Even the supernatural has to make some sense. For example, it has to have some basic physical elements so we can ACTUALLY see and feel it.

See why I'm objecting the phenomenon's properties outside our physical laws? Because it's not only about the ghosts, it's also about our limited capability to see and feel stuff. They have to follow our physical rules so WE would actually see and feel them.

Now, do they follow our rules when they come to our realm, and leave no trace when they leave? If it's so, I'm willing to accept it's possibility, but still it would be very far fetched, because it would still be based on A LOT of assumptions, and I don't think anyone can answer the question anyways. The options I've talked about seem much more fetched.

Don't forget, it's not just about the ghosts and their rules and abilities, it's also about our abilities to percieve and spot ONLY PHYSICAL THINGS.

I'm not dissing it, I believe everything might be possible, and our imagination is wild, but look at the case, which seems more likely to you? In the end, everything we believe in is based on likeliness, and it's good to do that, because we can't do more, and this prevents us from being lost.

So here is my percentages so you wouldn't think I'm arrogant:

Ghosts exist in these basis: 1%
Stories made by man: 99%

Also, I would like to remind you about the experiments that show that preplanned signals DO FOOL people, even some that DON'T believe in ghosts, to think ghosts just passed.

I can believe in ghosts, but I don't believe they follow these basis you talk about. If anything, these basis might be insulting to their more powerful abilities.

I'm sure ghosts might exist, but I thing we all got HOW THEY WORK wrong. We got these basis about how ghosts work from stories man made up and used to tell.

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71

So then clearly you've never heard of exorcisms, hauntings, or anything along the subject? Oh wait, I guess millions of people are lying about their experiences that have terrorized them just for the fun of it. Great thinking pal, good to know you are calling many people liars who have been traumatized by events like those. They dont make up stories for the fun of it buddy, 90 percent of them dont even want anything, they just tell their stories. Now I am saying that no one lies? Of course not, if you can profit from something, you can bet people will do their best to do it. But that by no means are all of the other millions of people lying. That would be pointless. You are among the few, that even though millions of people have had supernatural, or haunted encounters, you still decide that its a joke. Being blind, or simply just denying the fact of such things is just ignorance. But hey, Im not meaning to start anything man, believe what you want.

Likewise, I'm not going to say everyone who has had supernatural experiences is a lunatic, but most people who have them seem unstable. Most I've seen take drugs. The stereotype is that people who truly believe spirits talk to them are devoted believers, antisocial, unhealthy people, all for the spirits. Stereotypes do exist for a reason, mind you. On TV shows, websites, things that are publicised, a lot of them are made up for commercial value. They're faux paus, because people like to watch interesting stores, even if the line between truth and lie is blurred heavily.

I don't believe in starting things, because I don't like to resort to petty insults. I like to use fact and logic instead of petty, brash words only aimed to cut down self esteem. I live by fact and logic, not by calling someone a "fag" or wishing for them to perish in a blazing inferno. The latter might be what a diehard fanatic might say about someone who thinks they're crazy because these "spirits" have directly contacted them. That is why I don't believe in spirits unless they come up to me and slap me in the face, not in a lucid dream or a drug induced hallucination.

Most people who are traumatized by these events don't have any evidence to knock the counterargument that they're mentally sick and should go to a psychiatric ward. Spirits didn't give them a ring, or a precious gem, or even if that was the case, they can't prove spirits gave it to them.

Have you noticed how no one can prove the existence of these spirits? That's because they likely don't exist.
What, are you about to tell me that a spirit handled you against your will? Did a spirit torment your soul or whip you into submission? Why do you defend these people who claim to have seen spirits when you can't even give me a notable example in which a person contacted by spirits proved that they were indeed spirits and not a figment of a corrupt psyche?

Can you quit beating around the bush and give a completely legitimate, proven example that these ethereal beats whom defy logic and most earthly principles actually exist? Can you send one after me so that I might learn the truth?
Go ahead. Prove me wrong. I'm active on dreamviews, and I'll check back frequently to hear your answer that your fabled non-corporeal creatures exist beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Based on your other posts, I can safely conclude that you are quite the talented individual, intellectually and in the dream world, so I can safely conclude that you will have some sort of solid evidence that will, without a doubt, safely prove me wrong, that there is an afterlife, and I'm missing something due to a lack of information.
I assume, being the smart person you are, that you have this information to prove my ridiculous claim that spirits are fake, is a bunch of bull-pucky. Topping an argument that provides fact and logic is hard to do, but I have faith that you can do it, as I am beginning to doubt myself, and I want to know the truth that only you can provide.

Show me the error of my argument through solid evidence, and I will conclude that you're the smartest person on Dreamviews, since you, One Up Boy, were talented enough to prove a nobody like me who brought up an argument that spirits aren't real based on logic and evidence, to counter this to prove that spirits do exist. No one else can do that, but I honestly believe that you have the power to prove my faulty-in-advance logic wrong. I like you. I see the potential in you that you can do this. Even if this truth you will present me nulls my entire argument moot, I want to know the truth that you will provide. Be the oracle. I'm being sincere, this isn't a sick bout of sarcasm, I want to know the truth just like everyone else here does. If you're able to do this, which I believe you will, if you wish, I can publicize this conversation, or just the post where you prove spirits exist, since the entire world wants to know the sure fire truth, and you will be hailed as a national hero for pulling the wool off of our eyes. Some will even consider you a god for having the knowledge of the legitimacy of spirits.

Don't let me down, because even though we've stirred up a bit of hostility towards eachother at this point, I can look past my pride at what kind of person you are, and make a judgement call based on your great level of intellect and judge positively that you can prove my arguments wrong. This is what I've done. Put my pride aside to hear your words, as I believe you can show me the truth.

I believe in you.

Shock the world now, claim your prize as God. Prove spirits exist.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That's the second time you responded to the same post, and again your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I made no theories, professed no beliefs, and certainly wasn't talking about stillborns. I don't know where you're getting this stuff from (it was a fairly simple post with obvious meaning), and can only assume you are baiting me. I don't think I'll bite, thanks.

No, I'm not trying to bait you. Trolling on a forum like this seems like a really immoral and foolish move. I wouldn't troll on a forum with topics as serious as this, and I'm quite insulted that you would accuse me of that. I'm putting up a serious argument.

Are you suggesting that people, like those who erroneously entered the world through a means of being stillborn or dying before getting a chance to develop a set of personality traits has a pre-set personality?

I'm talking about spirits. If someone is robbed of their corporeal privilages and sent into the afterlife without getting a fair chance to develop personality and do things on earth, what would they be like in this "afterlife"?

^^ I give up.

I was suggesting nothing. I was asking about the meaning of a phrase that to me seemed quite sophomoric and over-used. I said nothing about pre-set personalities or stillborn babies and I don't care if you are talking about spirits because I was not. Your serious argument opposes nothing I said, because I posited nothing. So please don't make any more arguments to me that assume things I never said (or even thought) and if you do, please understand that I will not respond (just as I haven't really responded to anything you've presented so far, no matter how inventive).

And yes, it may be a shame that you are insulted, but making stuff up about what I said just to get me to respond -- or give yourself something to say, I suppose -- is, in my opinion, trolling. So, if you were doing this intentionally, then congratulations on your tiny victory; I hope it felt good. If not, well, you might want to think about looking more closely at what people wrote before reaching such far-reaching conclusions.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

I'm sure ghosts might exist, but I thing we all got HOW THEY WORK wrong. We got these basis about how ghosts work from stories man made up and used to tell.

I like this alot better. Truth is, neither of us have studied the phenomenon to really have a solid debate going on here. Only reason I kept this thing going was to try to get you to see the other side, to be a bit more open minded. I dont care at all if ghosts exist or not, because it doesnt effect me really, I just like having an open mind to everything.

Originally Posted by EzioAuditore

Can you quit beating around the bush and give a completely legitimate, proven example that these ethereal beats whom defy logic and most earthly principles actually exist? Can you send one after me so that I might learn the truth?
Go ahead. Prove me wrong. I'm active on dreamviews, and I'll check back frequently to hear your answer that your fabled non-corporeal creatures exist beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Based on your other posts, I can safely conclude that you are quite the talented individual, intellectually and in the dream world, so I can safely conclude that you will have some sort of solid evidence that will, without a doubt, safely prove me wrong, that there is an afterlife, and I'm missing something due to a lack of information.
I assume, being the smart person you are, that you have this information to prove my ridiculous claim that spirits are fake, is a bunch of bull-pucky. Topping an argument that provides fact and logic is hard to do, but I have faith that you can do it, as I am beginning to doubt myself, and I want to know the truth that only you can provide.

Show me the error of my argument through solid evidence, and I will conclude that you're the smartest person on Dreamviews, since you, One Up Boy, were talented enough to prove a nobody like me who brought up an argument that spirits aren't real based on logic and evidence, to counter this to prove that spirits do exist. No one else can do that, but I honestly believe that you have the power to prove my faulty-in-advance logic wrong. I like you. I see the potential in you that you can do this. Even if this truth you will present me nulls my entire argument moot, I want to know the truth that you will provide. Be the oracle. I'm being sincere, this isn't a sick bout of sarcasm, I want to know the truth just like everyone else here does. If you're able to do this, which I believe you will, if you wish, I can publicize this conversation, or just the post where you prove spirits exist, since the entire world wants to know the sure fire truth, and you will be hailed as a national hero for pulling the wool off of our eyes. Some will even consider you a god for having the knowledge of the legitimacy of spirits.

Don't let me down, because even though we've stirred up a bit of hostility towards eachother at this point, I can look past my pride at what kind of person you are, and make a judgement call based on your great level of intellect and judge positively that you can prove my arguments wrong. This is what I've done. Put my pride aside to hear your words, as I believe you can show me the truth.

I believe in you.

Shock the world now, claim your prize as God. Prove spirits exist.

Chill the hell out man, you are taking this too seriously. I am not going to re-state EVERYTHING I said in the past posts by me, Im done wasting my time because in the end YOU are going to believe what you want to believe. Im sorry you got this butthurt over something like this, not what I intended. You see, I am an open minded person- this means I am open to alot of ideas, possibilities, and everything along that line. It also means that I can accept the fact that many things are BEYOND the understanding of man and his mind. Im glad you think we humans are entitled to know everything, really shows the great humbleness possessed by a large percentage of the human population. I am not here to prove anything, because I DO NOT care whether or not spirits exist- I think they do, and thats how I feel because of my drug-free, sober personal experiences. Keep in mind that I also have a completely healthy mind, so STOP bringing up the fact that you just so happen to know that 99 % of everyone who has had an experience was under the influence or unhealthy in the mind. I never said I was talented, buddy, what Im trying to get at here is that I think beyond the box. I think independently. It really hurts me to see that you would let yourself get so frustrated over a thread such as this. Either get angry to easily or I am being trolled as Sageous is. I never asked to get into this long- extremely time consuming argument with you-especially since it is going no where. I ONLY provided you with an opinion of my own and asked you to provide me with why you feel the way you do about spirits. It will probably take you your entire life to find out that YOU CANNOT prove everything, and that much of lifes experiences cannot be explained, they just have to be experience on their own. Many things in life are indescribable, and in a way transcendent. <<<That means that whatever it is goes beyond all human understanding, and we do not possess the knowledge or capability to explain it. That is my view point on spirits. Nothing more. Keep an open mind pal, and do not trash everything just because you dont like it. Another thing- you cant trash the existence of spirits by telling me how the human body works, like seriously wtf did you expect, the two to be one with each other and live off of the same rules? Anyways since I can see that this is taking a negative effect on you I will stop with my replies because I feel that I am being trolled now. It gets me how some people feel they know everything and then use that against me just because I said it. Im only here to open that box that is imprisoning your mind, so please chill out and relax. I am not beating around the bush, Im only trying to beat the POSSIBILITY of an idea into your head. Take care

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71

Chill the hell out man, you are taking this too seriously. I am not going to re-state EVERYTHING I said in the past posts by me, Im done wasting my time because in the end YOU are going to believe what you want to believe. Im sorry you got this butthurt over something like this, not what I intended. You see, I am an open minded person- this means I am open to alot of ideas, possibilities, and everything along that line. It also means that I can accept the fact that many things are BEYOND the understanding of man and his mind. Im glad you think we humans are entitled to know everything, really shows the great humbleness possessed by a large percentage of the human population. I am not here to prove anything, because I DO NOT care whether or not spirits exist- I think they do, and thats how I feel because of my drug-free, sober personal experiences. Keep in mind that I also have a completely healthy mind, so STOP bringing up the fact that you just so happen to know that 99 % of everyone who has had an experience was under the influence or unhealthy in the mind. I never said I was talented, buddy, what Im trying to get at here is that I think beyond the box. I think independently. It really hurts me to see that you would let yourself get so frustrated over a thread such as this. Either get angry to easily or I am being trolled as Sageous is. I never asked to get into this long- extremely time consuming argument with you-especially since it is going no where. I ONLY provided you with an opinion of my own and asked you to provide me with why you feel the way you do about spirits. It will probably take you your entire life to find out that YOU CANNOT prove everything, and that much of lifes experiences cannot be explained, they just have to be experience on their own. Many things in life are indescribable, and in a way transcendent. <<<That means that whatever it is goes beyond all human understanding, and we do not possess the knowledge or capability to explain it. That is my view point on spirits. Nothing more. Keep an open mind pal, and do not trash everything just because you dont like it. Another thing- you cant trash the existence of spirits by telling me how the human body works, like seriously wtf did you expect, the two to be one with each other and live off of the same rules? Anyways since I can see that this is taking a negative effect on you I will stop with my replies because I feel that I am being trolled now. It gets me how some people feel they know everything and then use that against me just because I said it. Im only here to open that box that is imprisoning your mind, so please chill out and relax. I am not beating around the bush, Im only trying to beat the POSSIBILITY of an idea into your head. Take care

I was wondering why you defend the idea of spirits with what seems like your life. I had seen that you actually are a talented individual, and I saw that you are smart. I saw the potential in you with the ambition you showed me that you could show me proof that spirits exist when your intelligence and ambition combine.

I wasn't "butthurt", I was ambitiously inclined to see what you had to say. You seem to have the mindset of someone who, when extremely passionate with something, you'll be able to outsmart someone and eventually prove them wrong.

Was I wrong about your great potential?
I honestly hope I wasn't wrong about your potential.

Even if your talents [Which I'll say again, I saw them, and I know you're not bragging about them, and i'm being serious that I saw your talents] aren't good enough to prove the existence of wandering creatures beyond our realm, you have the ambition to do things as great as that.
Ambition is a quality everyone should have. And, I believe that if you're passionate, along with ambitious about future endeavors, you could do great things.

I'm sorry if this converesation really went down the tubes, but it showed me a side of you that I've never seen before, in a good way.
You're passionate about proving ghosts, you're so ambitious to do it, you just lack the information. But, if you had the information, you would most certainly crush my frail arguments with it.

This has been quite the experience for all three of us, and even more so for the two of us. I honestly believe that you will find the answer someday before you reach death.

Originally Posted by EzioAuditore

I was wondering why you defend the idea of spirits with what seems like your life. I had seen that you actually are a talented individual, and I saw that you are smart. I saw the potential in you with the ambition you showed me that you could show me proof that spirits exist when your intelligence and ambition combine.

I wasn't "butthurt", I was ambitiously inclined to see what you had to say. You seem to have the mindset of someone who, when extremely passionate with something, you'll be able to outsmart someone and eventually prove them wrong.

Was I wrong about your great potential?
I honestly hope I wasn't wrong about your potential.

Even if your talents [Which I'll say again, I saw them, and I know you're not bragging about them, and i'm being serious that I saw your talents] aren't good enough to prove the existence of wandering creatures beyond our realm, you have the ambition to do things as great as that.
Ambition is a quality everyone should have. And, I believe that if you're passionate, along with ambitious about future endeavors, you could do great things.

I'm sorry if this converesation really went down the tubes, but it showed me a side of you that I've never seen before, in a good way.
You're passionate about proving ghosts, you're so ambitious to do it, you just lack the information. But, if you had the information, you would most certainly crush my frail arguments with it.

This has been quite the experience for all three of us, and even more so for the two of us. I honestly believe that you will find the answer someday before you reach death.

Look man, sorry about the whole "butthurt" insult, that was immature of me. I am really glad we have come to respect each others opinions in the end, thats how it should always be haha. I appreciate the compliments as well and I must say the same for you. As for the whole ghosts thing, I only feel that they could exist, but again I don't know that much about them. It was great talking to you Ezio, and I have learned alot about you, in a good way as well. I see now at times you can be a very rational, strong minded person, and you like to get to the point and find an answer- thats a really good characteristic to have in life. Anyways man, I think we've both learned a lot from this thread, even if we didn't each get the solid answer we were looking for. Stay chill Ezio, Ill see you around DV

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71

Look man, sorry about the whole "butthurt" insult, that was immature of me. I am really glad we have come to respect each others opinions in the end, thats how it should always be haha. I appreciate the compliments as well and I must say the same for you. As for the whole ghosts thing, I only feel that they could exist, but again I don't know that much about them. It was great talking to you Ezio, and I have learned alot about you, in a good way as well. I see now at times you can be a very rational, strong minded person, and you like to get to the point and find an answer- thats a really good characteristic to have in life. Anyways man, I think we've both learned a lot from this thread, even if we didn't each get the solid answer we were looking for. Stay chill Ezio, Ill see you around DV

Glad we have reached a point of positive closure. Whatever will happen in the afterlife doesn't concern us at the moment; we have our current earthly lives to worry about, and there are probably more pressing matters in both of our lives. Cheers, mate.

Originally Posted by OneUpBoy71

I like this alot better. Truth is, neither of us have studied the phenomenon to really have a solid debate going on here. Only reason I kept this thing going was to try to get you to see the other side, to be a bit more open minded. I dont care at all if ghosts exist or not, because it doesnt effect me really, I just like having an open mind to everything.

I actually do have that thought from the start, but I was arguing the existence of of the typical classic ghosts( hence why I debated their characteristics only).

I am actually a very open minded person, and pride myself for it, but even some sense has to be laid upon superstitions, or we wouldn't even be understanding, or seeing at all, these things.

So I think everything is possible, and science isn't 100%, I even place our logic as a limited tool, and not an all mighty path to follow, but even some physics has to be put so we would actually see the ghosts and stuff.

Edit: Then again, there might be a rule of physiscs that exists that we haven't discovered yet, and that might explain how ghosts do it, if they do, how they can physiscaly influence us and stay following their own rules.

So I know from the start that ghosts might exist, but PROBABLY not this way that we think they do.

But then again, pickles can fly might be true if everything can happen. Get my point?

When we face our fear of death and slow down our busy lives, we came to realize our relationships are precious so we must always take care of our beloved and enjoy every moment of our life.
pokies