Why do You believe?

[george]

I am going through a phase, perhaps that is the correct term, of trying to justify my beliefs. I want to believe in things not material, but there remains the nagging thought that materialistic worldviews can equally explain the (objective) phenomena, like consciousness, dreams, out of body experiences etc. What are your reasons, if you have any, for believing in things "beyond dreaming"? What event in your life has convinced you beyond doubt? If you do not believe, it is not necessary that you reply. I am aware of those reasons. I am looking for for-arguments. Thank you

[13redfan]

I'd always thought it was a case of just "knowing". Sometimes you experience things, and sometimes you read things that make you believe, but mostly you just know. At least, that's how I've gone about it! Granted, I have experienced one or two things, but yeah.

[Keiju]

because the further you look into the material, the more you will find it explains the "non-material" and vice versa there is no such thing as spiritual and material, both are the same, existence entire is made of the same thing, spiritual and material, theres no argument here, only ignorance , i mean it in the sincerest way possible ~_~ at least this is my view, but i see no possible counter this seems a case of just getting mixed up with words and not fully understanding what you mean by them, its like the difference between religion and science... they are both looking at the same thing, just from different angles, science is simply another form of religion and vice versa you will see the merging of science and religion on a worldwide scale, this is whats coming for us,

[george]

Thank you for the answers! I see what you mean Kelju, indeed the distinction is artificial. It is exactly the intuitive certainty of the beliefs that is hard to find for me.

[Shark Rider]

I think you just need to experience something beyond the material by yourself. It's the best way.

[The Cusp]

For a minute, I thought this thread was a plug for the X-files movie.

[LucidFlanders]

Science is not another form of religion.... science is like, i guess the only way we know things or the process to it or w/e. Everything that gets found becomes science because science is the only truth we know of. Anyway i'm not on either of their bandwagons, science, or mystisism(sp?) as they call it. I believe because of my expierience, but i don't believe because there are truths to the unknown, NDE/OBE can be perhaps the brain , but perhaps not. I will never jump on a bandwagon because we will never know the real truth so i'll always untill i die stay on the "see 2 sides of a story" path for the rest of my life. People are ignorant and think they know the truths and refuse to accept they may be wrong and have been wrong, i refuse to become one of those people. I seen a spirit before, but it could have easily been my neurons, hell my whole room transformed into a cod4 map once, so you can't really believe what you see to be true, then again nothings true we live inside our brains and the brain shows what we see, projects these "materialistic" things, our bodys, our feelings, etc. I'm not gonna go to deep into this but i am neutral on these things.

[Keiju]

you cant be on either side, or neutral, religion takes one approach at finding what this place is, science takes another approach, both are in search of truth science is like, i guess the only way we know things or the process to it or w/e. Everything that gets found becomes science because science is the only truth we know of. what do you mean by science? so far from your descrption i gathered its 1) only method to gaining knowledge 2) everything that is "known" is science 3) science is the only truth 4) there is no other truth are you sure it doesnt like a religion at all ?

[LucidFlanders]

By truth i mean things that work. Religion is based on faith, science is based on the truth of things. Religion is close minded, science changes. I'm not gonna dump on religion to pimp up science but these are the facts. btw you can be on both sides. I'm not on the religion side, but the mystisism side.

[Keiju]

religion is not based on faith, it is as much of a science as anything, otherwise you do not know what religion is, there are just as many faith based ideas in science as there is in religion Religion is close minded, this is completely dependant on the person, nothing to do with science and religion I'm not gonna dump on religion to pimp up science but these are the facts. no they are not, it is your opinion, and i disagree very strongly in labelling and generalising, as you have just done btw you can be on both sides. I'm not on the religion side, but the mystisism side. regardless of which side you think you are on, we are ALL on the same side, sooner we realise the better

[Naiya]

It's not a matter of belief to me. I don't believe in astral projection--I do it. Whether or not I believe in astral travel or spirits or even God has never made a difference in my experiences of it. So I neither believe nor disbelieve. I just go where life takes me, and I don't try to shove my profound experiences into a pre-packaged paradigm (and sure as hell not another person's or some stupid religion's). It is what it is. And what it is, who the hell knows? Call it what you will; that doesn't change a thing for me. I also don't believe in swimming. I just do it. You can convince me that water doesn't exist until you're blue in the face, and I will merely respond by suggesting you jump into the pool yourself if you wish to find the real truth. I don't fault anyone for not believing in it. Actually, I think it's pretty stupid to believe it if you've had zero experience and zero circumstantial evidence of it. So by all means don't believe. It doesn't make a damn difference in my life.

[Scatterbrain]

This Carl Sagan quote will fit perfectly here: In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.

[Keiju]

no it doesnt o.O Religion is close minded, this is completely dependant on the person, nothing to do with science and religion i luv u Naiya, give us a shout if ever your in london

[george]

Perhaps I should stop rationalizing it and start meditating more and it doesn't really matter if these phenomena are something I can objectively believe in or not.. possibly i will experience them someday. thanks for the replies - from what you've said, this is something that rests on personal experience, and thats in a way what i wanted to hear.

[LucidFlanders]

religion is not based on faith, it is as much of a science as anything, otherwise you do not know what religion is, there are just as many faith based ideas in science as there is in religion Religion is not a science, it's a faith/belief system. Science goes by the facts while religion goes by your faith in believing it. There is no facts about religion, just stuff people "wanting" to be true. People get brainwashed by religion since they are a child, and it all boils down to what i already said. this is completely dependant on the person, nothing to do with science and religion Religion refuses to change, it always stays the same. That's why it's closed minded. If you refuse to believe religion is NOT closed minded well then i have nothing more to say after this post. no they are not, it is your opinion, and i disagree very strongly in labelling and generalising, as you have just done Yes, they are facts. Refuse to believe all you want but at the end of the day they really are facts. regardless of which side you think you are on, we are ALL on the same side, sooner we realise the better It all boils down to 1 thing, and that's the pursuit of truth. The truth cannot be changed, nor can it be erased. The truth is the truth.

[saxonharp]

Perhaps I should stop rationalizing it and start meditating more and it doesn't really matter if these phenomena are something I can objectively believe in or not.. possibly i will experience them someday. thanks for the replies - from what you've said, this is something that rests on personal experience, and thats in a way what i wanted to hear. I'll go with Naiya on this. You know, when we experience a candle flame, our mind uses words and past experiences to help us categorize, quantify, and qualify the experience. We begin to put words to it; heat, hot, burning, light, bright, moving, etc., etc. We assign emotions to it; romance, fear, longing, happiness, etc., etc. But those same words and categorizations are not the candle flame. The candle flame is a separate thing that exists outside the words and other artifices the mind uses to turn the experience into data. That's what the Mind does - that's it's job: to make the world of experience into useable data. Too many people stop with that. They collect and store the data that the Mind provides. But they miss the experience because all they have is data. When you ask why we believe, it's because - in each and everyone of us - we have experienced something that has created some data from our mind and our Heart has told us that it MEANS something. It's the Heart that experiences. It is with the Heart that a candleflame can be a candleflame without the superimposed, restrictive, and limiting confines the Mind places on it. When you allow your Heart to experience, "belief" becomes a non-sensical word. The experience is transmitted directly to your being without the interference and distortion the Mind places on it and you simply "know".

[Keiju]

People get brainwashed by religion/science since they are a child, perhaps you should review your own position

[gaia]

I think I understand what you mean, saxonharp. good post, thank you EDIT: this is george.. i recently created a new account.. and i sometimes log in with the on or the other without noticing..

[gratismat]

perhaps you should review your own position I generaly agree with Lucid Flanders, as a bit of a scientist myself I will respond; we deffinatly will change our minds if you prove us that we are wrong

[Dodopod]

There is no facts about religion, just stuff people "wanting" to be true. People get brainwashed by religion since they are a child, and it all boils down to what i already said. What about people who haven't been "brainwashed since they were a child" and converted from atheism or from a radically different religion? Why would they do that if there weren't any facts in it? Religion refuses to change, it always stays the same. That's why it's closed minded. Your post seems to deny the possibility of Christianity in general, protestant Christianity, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhism, Islam, and many other religions that are in fact other religions after they had been changed! Yes, they are facts. Refuse to believe all you want but at the end of the day they really are facts. Scientific laws are facts, but they don't really deal with any of the controversial science anyway. The many theories out there appear to be true, they've stood up to tests, but in reality, much of science (and just about everything that religious people continuously say isn't true) hasn't been proven to a degree that it can't be well argued against. perhaps you should review your own position owned! I want to believe in things not material, but there remains the nagging thought that materialistic worldviews can equally explain the (objective) phenomena, like consciousness, dreams, out of body experiences etc. I've never heard a "materialistic" explanation that gets anywhere close to explaining consciousness. Whenever I hear/read/watch anything that I think makes sense in that field, I simply ask myself "How can I be experiencing the world through this body?" and when I can't find an answer in what I heard/read/watched, I see that the only possible answer (that I yet know of) lies in the supernatural.

[LucidFlanders]

What about people who haven't been "brainwashed since they were a child" and converted from atheism or from a radically different religion? Why would they do that if there weren't any facts in it? Then it's their choice, but religion comes to people before they even know better and are forced to go, even if they don't want to. I used to be forced, thankfully i don't anymore since i have a choice. Your post seems to deny the possibility of Christianity in general, protestant Christianity, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhism, Islam, and many other religions that are in fact other religions after they had been changed! Um, religion is closed minded. How on earth can you not see that...do the christians change their view of hell? no, it's always the same, it never changes. There are all different types of religions, but their whole message is the same thing, and does not change. Scientific laws are facts, but they don't really deal with any of the controversial science anyway. The many theories out there appear to be true, they've stood up to tests, but in reality, much of science (and just about everything that religious people continuously say isn't true) hasn't been proven to a degree that it can't be well argued against. uh...k. owned! Not owned.

[Naiya]

Then it's their choice, but religion comes to people before they even know better and are forced to go, even if they don't want to. I used to be forced, thankfully i don't anymore since i have a choice. Many people are brainwashed, many are born into a religion, and many do not have enough information to make an informed choice. I know that's what you're trying to get at and I totally agree. I hope that someday we'll all live in a society where everybody can make an informed choice. And guess what--a lot of them will still choose religion! They may even choose the one that they were introduced to first. And that's perfectly fine. It doesn't mean they're ignorant or naive or whatever, it just means they want to define their very profound existence in a different way than you do. You want people to make their own choice, just like you were eventually able to do. And if they don't choose what you did, don't be like the crazy religious people-- respect that choice. Um, religion is closed minded. How on earth can you not see that...do the christians change their view of hell? no, it's always the same, it never changes. There are all different types of religions, but their whole message is the same thing, and does not change. Oh, hay there, I'm a Christian who changed my belief about hell. I think everyone goes to heaven! Isn't that neat? Btw there's an entire sect I belong to who believe the same, called Unitarian Universalism. Please study religion before you make a ridiculous sweeping generalization. In the scope of the entire history of our species, you will find that religion has changed and evolved as much as science has, especially in the last century. There's much more to religion than the fundamentalist Christians and the Catholics! When you talk about religion as a whole, try to think outside of the Abrahamic faiths a little bit--they're not the only ones out there.

[LucidFlanders]

Many people are brainwashed, many are born into a religion, and many do not have enough information to make an informed choice. I know that's what you're trying to get at and I totally agree. I hope that someday we'll all live in a society where everybody can make an informed choice. And guess what--a lot of them will still choose religion! They may even choose the one that they were introduced to first. And that's perfectly fine. It doesn't mean they're ignorant or naive or whatever, it just means they want to define their very profound existence in a different way than you do. You want people to make their own choice, just like you were eventually able to do. And if they don't choose what you did, don't be like the crazy religious people-- respect that choice. Yes, i realise this. I don't really care what people pick, i rip on science people too but this is a discussion board. Oh, hay there, I'm a Christian who changed my belief about hell. I think everyone goes to heaven! Isn't that neat? Btw there's an entire sect I belong to who believe the same, called Unitarian Universalism. Please study religion before you make a ridiculous sweeping generalization. In the scope of the entire history of our species, you will find that religion has changed and evolved as much as science has, especially in the last century. There's much more to religion than the fundamentalist Christians and the Catholics! When you talk about religion as a whole, try to think outside of the Abrahamic faiths a little bit--they're not the only ones out there. Well maybe different people have different viewpoints, but the majority of religion is the same, and doesn't change. The only thing that changes is the peoples views. Example....what the TRUE bible said thousands of years ago. The people and the religion are 2 different things. The biggest thing people choose religion for is the fear of death, they want something to fall back to. People may not agree, that's why it's a "deep down" kind of thing. People don't wanna cease to be, they always wanna be, just not here, and they also wanna see their loved ones again. There are many ways of expressing why they are into religion, maybe they believe in a higher power "god", or something clicks and makes sense to them. This of course is the persons "choice", when they are young and don't know any better it's more. This has REALLY baffled me for a long time but what is worse? blindly believing, or never knowing, yet curious everyday for the rest of their life? I don't mean religion i blindly believing as there are 2 different types IMO. You wanna believe but you can't, because nothing is certain in life except death and taxes.

[Keiju]

I generaly agree with Lucid Flanders, as a bit of a scientist myself I will respond; we deffinatly will change our minds if you prove us that we are wrong i am not trying to prove anyone wrong, if it feels that way then it is your own feelings... not mine i merely ask that he stop trying to prove everyone else wrong on matters that can not be proven wrong or right, when he clearly does not know and neither do i.... and never did i claim to you are not discussing LucidFlanders because you refuse to consider the opposite view, you have closed yourself, a discussion is not possible in these cases, your view of religion is very particular and you seem to be referring to the Bible as your definition for religion, religion has nothing to do with the Bible (maybe for some it does), you can not objectify words like religion and science which is what i was trying to get at ~_~ we are reading your posts, but you are not reading ours This has REALLY baffled me for a long time but what is worse? blindly believing, or never knowing, yet curious everyday for the rest of their life? I don't mean religion i blindly believing as there are 2 different types IMO. You wanna believe but you can't, because nothing is certain in life except death and taxes. why dont you believe what you want instead of what everyone else believes? well it seems like you do, your religion is death and taxes, i think i much prefer those other "closed minded" ones tbh :p there are no correct/incorrect beliefs, only beliefs that are beneficial and those that are not "nothing is true, unless it is true to me" some kind of quote from a random guy called Bhudda here is something i believe, i believe i am eternal, this is beneficial to me, one piece of reasoning i like to use to sufficiently satisfy my logic is trying to find the "I" in yourself, take a moment to find this "I", can you find it? found it?, that is not the "I" because how can it be the "I" if the "I" is observing this apparent "I", now science and religion is basically all trying to find out, who is "I" ? The "I" is infinite, this is the real you, everything else seperate to "I" is not you, so everything you think you are... everything you think you know.... that is not you because you can seperate it from the "I" and analyse it, they are all instruments for your use "they must find it difficult, those who take authority as the truth.... rather than truth as the authority"

[gratismat]

i am not trying to prove anyone wrong, if it feels that way then it is your own feelings... not mine i merely ask that he stop trying to prove everyone else wrong on matters that can not be proven wrong or right, when he clearly does not know and neither do i.... and never did i claim to you are not discussing LucidFlanders because you refuse to consider the opposite view, you have closed yourself, a discussion is not possible in these cases, your view of religion is very particular and you seem to be referring to the Bible as your definition for religion, religion has nothing to do with the Bible (maybe for some it does), you can not objectify words like religion and science which is what i was trying to get at ~_~ we are reading your posts, but you are not reading ours Well, I canot speak for lucid flanders, hell, I don't even know the guy. So take that away then if you wish. Why do you think I'm refering to the bible? Never mentioned such a thing at all. Why do you call me closeminded? I often consider diffrent and change views a lot actually, yet, every time time I try to discuss religion I'm the one who ends up "being" closeminded. I certanly don't mean to objectify things to much without giving them a deffinition. So here's my definition of religion: Religion can be at least two kinds of things, one is the personal belief and one is the institutional, there may be more wich I haven't bean thinking of but I'm only human. This is not enough but I hope you see what I'm getting at. One of the problems with the second is that of the closemindedness that comes along with it, like "hell", "satan", "trinity" for example, this may in the worst cases lead to religious wars and stuff like the inquisition. In best cases it keeps people united trough hard times. One of the problems with the first is that of you're setting limitations to your own mind, much like a scientist who's working on something for his whole life and therefore just don't want it to not be true even though it might be and therefore he changes data and stuff to make it look "better", for instance, one of my friends who disslike religion as an institution are not willing to accept the idea of determinism due to a personal religious belief that there is something like supernatural in the universe, and that it because of this is such a thing as total freedom of choice, I'm not saying that this idea is corect but we had a discusion about it and I made an example wich he thaught was reasonable, yet he chose not to belive it. There is I'm certain a lot of good things that religion has done but this is the main bad thing I see, limitations for your thinking. As for science I belive it of course doesn't have to be a battle against religion but I do belive we could manage without it. The main diffrence as I see it is that if science somehow managed to "prove" itself wrong, scientists would have to stop beliving in it. Religion won't since it's not about "proof" in the first place and can always go back to the thing; just belive! This makes it sometimes wery dangerous since it's very hard to come with a counterargument for this(this I know from experience discussing religion with some people irl, they were of course as you probably can see by this very closeminded and did circular reflections all the time like; how can it not be true, it says it right here in the bible, I, from what I've read see that you're probably not like this but still, these people exist). I could, like start a war or something on the grounds that "god belive it is the right thing to do", if there is a god he probably would not but still if anyone asked; this guy could reply with something similar to; don't you belive? Hope you see what I mean.