Thread: 5000 year old WILD technique. Very easy, and very effective.

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

There is scientific evidence to support lucid dreaming. Stephen LaBerge conducted an experiment in a laboratory setting. Electrodes were placed on subjects' scalps to measure brain activity. The subjects were able to communicate a pre-set pattern to the experimenters using eye movement whilst they were lucid dreaming. Their brainwaves showed they were in REM sleep at the time (which is of course impossible for a subject to fake). No matter how skeptical somebody is about the experience of lucid dreaming they just can't argue with facts like this.

To play devil's advocate, I will remark that until LaBerge LDs were in the same basket as remote viewing and telekinesis. We (LD community) were really lucky that scientific person devoted himself to this issue. And LaBerge was really lucky with rapid eye movement. If eyes as other parts of the body would be paralized as well, LDs could not be proved that way, and then now LDs were treated like all other paranormal stuff.

OBE's actually is not that hard to proved or disproved: we just need to wait when passionate enough scientist(s) will find enough skilled volunteers and carry out required experiments.

Personally I think that LDs have different types: the most general one is what we usually call LD, and there are some more rare which diverse so much from common type that people (as expected) try to find "mystic" explanation. "OBE" maybe one of them. Actually, there may a whole spectre of them, and regular LDs are just a tiny bit .

After all, until LaBerge LDs were (and still is) are one of fundamental methods for many occult practices. Ball lightning for a long time was not recognized by scientific communty, and one of popular explantion was that it is UFO .

DreamChaser
Which method do you use for inducing it? I would like to try it myself to see the difference.

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

So you are admitting you will believe something simply because it is less anguishing than waiting to discover the truth? Hmmmmmm. Personally I'd rather believe something because it has been proven to be true. Not just because a lot of people say it to make themselves feel better.

PS: I hate to have to say it but picking on someone because they make a slightly non-PC comment really is getting desperate. Sorry Dreamchaser, no disrespect. Just keeping it real.

Well.
My quote was referring to not waiting for every thing to be proven before taking something on faith.

I would ask you when you have children if you haven't already, to tell them you will only believe in them when they prove themselves to you.
Dont sit in a chair till you check its structural integrity and prove its supportive enough.
Dont get in a plane till you personally check the engines.
Oh, wait, you believe the chair and plane will be fine without proof?

I would be a sheep and scared by death and the scare tactics of most religions if I were the man you say, that would just rather believe.

It just so happens I have had a few OBEs, so I believe.

The non-PC comment was accurate considering the response, but was probably a bit personal yes.

Lastly, By reading yours and spaceexplorer's posts, I would think maybe your two IP addresses are quite similar.
I have never heard someone say " Damn! And I thought my IQ was high
Not only is this the most intelligent post I've read on any forum ever, it is also one of the best pieces of prose I've ever read
How very refreshing, and inspiring."

I hope I am wrong.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Well.
My quote was referring to not waiting for every thing to be proven before taking something on faith.

I would ask you when you have children if you haven't already, to tell them you will only believe in them when they prove themselves to you.
Dont sit in a chair till you check its structural integrity and prove its supportive enough.
Dont get in a plane till you personally check the engines.
Oh, wait, you believe the chair and plane will be fine without proof?

I would be a sheep and scared by death and the scare tactics of most religions if I were the man you say, that would just rather believe.

It just so happens I have had a few OBEs, so I believe.

The non-PC comment was accurate considering the response, but was probably a bit personal yes.

Lastly, By reading yours and spaceexplorer's posts, I would think maybe your two IP addresses are quite similar.
I have never heard someone say " Damn! And I thought my IQ was high
Not only is this the most intelligent post I've read on any forum ever, it is also one of the best pieces of prose I've ever read
How very refreshing, and inspiring."

I hope I am wrong.

Well you can believe that me and dreamqueen are the same person.
Or you can look for evidence.
Now, which will you choose?
In the pursuit of truth, I'm quite willing to ask a Moderator to look at mine and DreamQueens IPs and clear the matter up for you.
Which ironically proves the very point i've been trying to make about OBEs.
The simple point that: Evidence settles an argument.

(funnily enough, having just got back to the computer and having read these posts, I was expecting someone to say something similar, only about me and potato991... even I though he came across a bit like me.)


What you seem to forget is that those of us who choose not to believe, but would rather see proof, actually have the most powerful personal interest in being proven wrong. Being proven wrong means that we all get to live on after we die. When it comes to the crunch the real matter is: is this life all we've got? If it is then it is very important we know that and live accordingly.
If I can be proven wrong, I'll be the happiest man alive, I'll possibly get to meet all my dear relatives and friends when I pass away.
What you need to be asking yourself is: if someone like myself, has a huge vested interest in OBEs being real, yet wont accept that on belief (even though it would be in my best interests for it to be true)... then why not?
Isn't it odd that people would choose the least personaly-pleasant answer to argue? Why would we do that? Is it because we're "boring cold logical people" (whatever that means... has anyone who thinks like that ever seen some of the beauty revealed to us via the hubble telescope and other scientific endevours? Personally I cant find one thing borne out of religion or evidence-free-thinking that comes close to rival the wonders of the universe as revelaled by Astronomy)

As for some things being taken on faith. I think thats taking the argument too the point of absurdity. Once something has been proven, and tested working on several occasions, of course It's ok to assume (which is a better word than faith IMO) that it will remain the case. OBEs however are an extrodinary claim, made without any evidence to back them up. Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary proof.

how many people does it take to perceive the same thing for it to be an objective reality?
how many dreamers have to share the same dream, interact in the same dream space for the dream to be an objective reality?

four? five? six? seven? eight? nine? ten? eleven? let me know when I hit a number that makes reality objective. one hundred? one thousand? one million?

isn't the answer it only takes two?

Actually none, objective reality exists without perception. Perception isn't required for objective reality to exist. (The earth was round, before anyone knew it was). However, because of that very nature, if ANY NUMBER or percivers witness this reality, they should recive the same data (how thier senses and pesonal psychology then interpret that data is down to who they are). If the dream world is an independant place (which it appears that Judora is tryint to say), then It' would be a very handy thing to discover, It'd no doubt be pounced on by any number of scientists and companys looking to make a new form of wireless comunication. I could go into dreamworld, carve my telephone number on a stone wall somewhere famous... and wait for someone I don't know to call me out of the blue (because they dreamt the number.) Considering the 6billion plus people dreaming each night, it probably wouldn't take long before I'd have to change my telephone number!


But back to my main point:

Making personal attacks on peoples moral standing, or authenticity
(essentially implying that I am a racist or an IP con-man)
Is the kind of thing that tabloids and dodgey politicians do, when they are trying to sidestep the issue.
I am neither a Racist (I find any kind of discrimination utterly vile - we all make verbal slipups now and then. However using racism as a card to win points in an argument, is to me more offensive.)
And I am certainly not DreamQueen or anyone else involved in this conversation.

If there is any moderator who could quickly clear that up, Would be much appreciated. It would nicely point out that evidence, is a quick way to settle an argument too.


Oh and as for being a boring left brainer:
I actually live quite a creative life, my friends refer to me as a "hippy"
due to all of my painting, music etc.
It's not like we have to choose either creativity or logic. But we do need to know which tool is best for the job.
Approaching a new painting with nothing but logic is probably going to be a bit of a faliure. BUT I'd also personaly prefer for the nuclear physicists, to stay nice and logical and not get "too creative" around the nuclear power stations.

Originally Posted by Ajna

or to use a newageism Ascended Masters and I feel for you that fact that when you read that you instantly felt aversion to the truth which you know deeper down.

You conscious logical mind is never going to convince the rest of us by your process of deduction and critical thinking. Your conscious logical mind is never going to get enough evidence to prove the spritual for you or prove the existence of your higher self.

Ok, how about I replace 'Ascended Master' with Jesus and Allah. The rest of your reasoning can remain as is. Based on this 'evidence', explain to me why do you not believe in both Christianity and Islam. The precise arguments you have given for these claims of mysticism apply (quite literally). So how is it ok for you to accept one and not the other, on what basis do the claims you support have merit, but not these others?

Originally Posted by Ajna

You say that it is an injustice to the human brain to deny the fact that astral projection is a subjective local phenomena and simply a product of its working.

I say it is an injustice to yourself that you feel the human spirit and higher self does not have a place in your world view or is not the truth, that you do not have an etheric body which can dis-integrate from your temporary physical one.

Look up synaesthesia, then get back to me on whether you honestly think there is some kind of 'universal' modality of vision. Vision is a subjective experience, subjective based on wiring of our brain; this is how synaesthesia is able to come about. So how does a blind person see how 'normal' people see, when the definition of normal vision is not a constant. Who knows the entire human race might evolve to see in this way on day. Will our ethereal representation, or third eye, begin to 'see' colours - even though it's alleged to be decoupled from our physical form? Science tells us what it means for a colour to be 'red', the sensory qualia we experience as red is subjective; there is no universal standard as to how the light wavelength representing red should be experienced.

Maybe we have an ethereal representation - but it's a bit narrow minded to think it perceives the world just as humans do, that there is some standard model of vision that blind people can tap into.

Originally Posted by Phantasos

To play devil's advocate, I will remark that until LaBerge LDs were in the same basket as remote viewing and telekinesis. We (LD community) were really lucky that scientific person devoted himself to this issue. And LaBerge was really lucky with rapid eye movement. If eyes as other parts of the body would be paralized as well, LDs could not be proved that way, and then now LDs were

I've also read the scientific community was not at all accepting of the notion of lucid dreams. This seems the responsible course, as if you accept something based on conjecture alone, where do you draw the line? Reports of lucid dreams could merely have been a mental disorder along the lines of schizophrenia. I don't think anybody was in denial *something* happened (they were just dreams, after all), just whether the control was real or imagined. That's the problem with the brain, they're well capable of seeing anything, but did they really see it (experience it), or was it imagined..

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

I would ask you when you have children if you haven't already, to tell them you will only believe in them when they prove themselves to you.
Dont sit in a chair till you check its structural integrity and prove its supportive enough.
Dont get in a plane till you personally check the engines.
Oh, wait, you believe the chair and plane will be fine without proof?

Let's reverse this. Peter Popoff offers you his miracle water, for a nominal fee of $10 (plus postage and handling). Guaranteed to fix any of your ailments, as long as you have the faith. Now Peter has tons of followers, there must be something to this, right? Lots of people believing in something makes it true, yes? So next time you're not feeling well - will you go to a doctor, or order Peter Popoff's miracle water?
True story, look him up (even though he was exposed as a fraud 20 years ago, and went into hiding for a while).

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Lastly, By reading yours and spaceexplorer's posts, I would think maybe your two IP addresses are quite similar.

Just for you DreamChaser, in case you can't see why someone would respond in that manner

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

Damn! And I thought my IQ was high
Not only is this the most intelligent post I've read on any forum ever, it is also one of the best pieces of prose I've ever read
How very refreshing, and inspiring.

+1

Then again why would you require proof with an IP address, you should just go with your gut instinct, right?

Sorry that was a bit personal, but accurate considering the response.

Thats cool spaceexplorer.
Just saw some similarities and/or hero worship in sync with your ego.
Oh wait, potato has got even more similar traits to you.
No offence.
I do enjoy our debates and I admitted the racism thing was a bit personal.
We all slip up here and there not meaning to.
Maybe we can side-step to another edge of this debate as we have repeated our beliefs and points over and over.

Originally Posted by potato991

Let's reverse this. Peter Popoff offers you his miracle water, for a nominal fee of $10 (plus postage and handling). Guaranteed to fix any of your ailments, as long as you have the faith. Now Peter has tons of followers, there must be something to this, right? Lots of people believing in something makes it true, yes? So next time you're not feeling well - will you go to a doctor, or order Peter Popoff's miracle water?
True story, look him up (even though he was exposed as a fraud 20 years ago, and went into hiding for a while).

A simple placebo, similar to many even here on DV say works.

I am not religious either, so millions of followers dont sway me either.

On the whole use of the word "Blacks"
Maybe its just an English thing, but during the whole Obama election, I'm certain the BBC and all the other reporters were using that term. I don't actually see it any more offensive than the term "blondes".
Again, maybe it varies from country to country...
for example, read the first paragraph of this article in the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-advisers.html

Let it go, space.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Thats cool spaceexplorer.
Oh wait, potato has got even more similar traits to you.
No offence.

Now you're saying spaceexplorer is like me

That's just taking the personal digs too far

Originally Posted by potato991

Now you're saying spaceexplorer is like me

That's just taking the personal digs too far

How do you know him that well after 6 posts?

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Let it go, space.

You can't imply someone is a racist, then tell them to "let it go"
as if it's nothing (and also maybe because you noticed that you were wrong about how the term is used!... lets just look at that again shall we....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-advisers.html)

(i'm just messing around... I'll not hold offence, but lets take that as a lesson learnt, not to fall to tabloid tactics)

But to avoid argument,
Let's get back on topic.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You can't imply someone is a racist, then tell them to "let it go"
as if it's nothing (and also maybe because you noticed that you were wrong about how the term is used!... lets just look at that again shall we....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-advisers.html)

But to avoid argument,
Let's get back on topic.

No. I thought of its use in the election before I said anything.
I have said it was a bit personal. Shall we start a new thread on it or drop it?

Ok back on topic.
DreamChaser, I can tell that you are in intelligent person,
I think we a crossing wires mostly on semantics here.

For me personally, the point that potato bought up about Miracle water is a good example. By the way have you ever read any Susan Blackmore?
She's a UK scientist, who for many, many years was a famous paranormal investigator - she experienced an OBE herself, which pretty much convinced her of thier validity. So she decided to use her scientific training to try and prove it to the scientific community. After many years of investigation, she finally threw in the towel, as she could find no evidence.
here's a short article by her: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html

actually i think this is a better article by her, a little more in depth:
http://www.edge.org/q2008/q08_13.html#blackmore

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ok back on topic.
DreamChaser, I can tell that you are in intelligent person,
I think we a crossing wires mostly on semantics here.

For me personally, the point that potato bought up about Miracle water is a good example. By the way have you ever read any Susan Blackmore?
She's a UK scientist, who for many, many years was a famous paranormal investigator - she experienced an OBE herself, which pretty much convinced her of thier validity. So she decided to use her scientific training to try and prove it to the scientific community. After many years of investigation, she finally threw in the towel, as she could find no evidence.
here's a short article by her: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html

actually i think this is a better article by her, a little more in depth:
http://www.edge.org/q2008/q08_13.html#blackmore

Thanks for those articles.
I must say I think I care less about being wrong about OBE, than in having the experience, whatever it is.
The fact it seems more here want to prove it wrong excites me. Why?
I have no real desire to prove it. Just dabbling in its debate to see the information and sides to the story unravel.
If we all read a story of perceived failure and all gave up, where would we be.
She gave up. Not a trait we should follow really.
It was one account of giving up on OBEs, same as I have many OBE experience accounts.

I'm off to bed to LD or OBE. Havent decided yet.
Will catch you in the morning (for me).

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Thanks for those articles.
I must say I think I care less about being wrong about OBE, than in having the experience, whatever it is.
The fact it seems more here want to prove it wrong excites me. Why?
I have no real desire to prove it. Just dabbling in its debate to see the information and sides to the story unravel.
If we all read a story of perceived failure and all gave up, where would we be.
She gave up. Not a trait we should follow really.
It was one account of giving up on OBEs, same as I have many OBE experience accounts.

I'm off to bed to LD or OBE. Havent decided yet.
Will catch you in the morning (for me).

I think if you spend 30 years trying to prove something, and after dedicating all that time you are humble enough to admit you were wrong. That is a good trait to have. Not a faliure. It proves she is willing to move on when you have been proven wrong. The fact she gave 30 YEARS of her time to the subject, is more than any of us can say.

As for your views on OBEs. I'm certainly not denying that the experience happens. What i am questioning is WHAT IT IS.
Personaly, I think the evidence suggests it is a mental phenomena. Dosn't mean people dont experience it, and it dosnt feel very much like you leave your body. Just that the conclusion that you REALLY leave your body is false.

I never have lucid dreams anymore. I can't remember my last one. But last night I went to sleep concentrating on the spot between my eyes, pineal gland or whatever it is, and I actually had a lucid dream.

And even the dreams that weren't lucid were very vivid, and I actually remembered some dialogue. I remembered some text messages I got in my dream too.

I was running from some car down my driveway, to my carport, so I could get inside my house. It was there that I realized I was dreaming, so remembering this site, I rubbed my hands and spun around.

There is a slight chance that I wasn't lucid, and my dream tricked me into believing I was, but I highly doubt it.

Either way, I can't believe I simply thought about the pineal gland and had a lucid.

Originally Posted by De-lousedInTheComatorium

I never have lucid dreams anymore. I can't remember my last one. But last night I went to sleep concentrating on the spot between my eyes, pineal gland or whatever it is, and I actually had a lucid dream.

And even the dreams that weren't lucid were very vivid, and I actually remembered some dialogue. I remembered some text messages I got in my dream too.

I was running from some car down my driveway, to my carport, so I could get inside my house. It was there that I realized I was dreaming, so remembering this site, I rubbed my hands and spun around.

There is a slight chance that I wasn't lucid, and my dream tricked me into believing I was, but I highly doubt it.

Either way, I can't believe I simply thought about the pineal gland and had a lucid.

Could it not be that you went to sleep focusing on SOMETHING rather than specifically the "third eye"?
Is it not just as likely that by focusing your attention you induced lucid dreaming? Maybe the "third eye" could be anything... maybe try focusing on your ear, or your foot, or your navel? See if that happens.

The combination of Placebo and Focused attention shouldn't be overlooked. It's a powerful combination.

Just to lighten the mood (or get flamed for trying )...

lmao i love the one with the baseball!!!!!!

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Could it not be that you went to sleep focusing on SOMETHING rather than specifically the "third eye"?
Is it not just as likely that by focusing your attention you induced lucid dreaming? Maybe the "third eye" could be anything... maybe try focusing on your ear, or your foot, or your navel? See if that happens.

The combination of Placebo and Focused attention shouldn't be overlooked. It's a powerful combination.

Call it whatever you want.

After catching up on this debate, I'm seeing quite a bit of hypocricy from DreamChaser and Ajna. One minute you are trying to claim that OBE/Astral travel is "Real". That some part of yourself is leaving your body and interacting with a discrete world. A wold separate from your own perception. By doing this, you are creating a distinction between yourself and the world around you. You are placing importance on the world you interact with in order to give validation to your own experiences.

Then, the next minute, you are claiming that your personal belief matters more than evidence from the "Real" world around you. You would believe in yourself enough to dismiss (or not require) evidence from a discrete world. You trust your perception over evidence.

Do you see the contradiction? You've locked yourself into an impossible pickle.

Nobody is claiming your experiences are not real. In fact, SpaceExplorer came right out and said that he has had OBE experiences also. The trouble arises in how you define your own experiences. You want to claim that your OBEs are more than just your perception, but then reject all the methods necessary to prove this very thing (AKA, scientific method). Why make the claim in the first place? Why work so hard to define a world separate from your perception if you are going to reject all interaction with and feedback from it?

Hi, sorry I don't have time to read every single post since mine.

Just want to confirm that I'm not the same person as spaceexplorer! I'm very flattered by this suggestion though I must say I am also more than happy for moderators to look into our accounts. I know my first post was OTT (and no doubt embarrassed him no end haha!) I guess I wrote that to try to get people to sit up and take notice that he is obviously a really intelligent person and rather than argue "just to try and be right" a smart person knows to listen and learn from intelligent people. I can't believe I'm about to admit this but I married a man who is more intelligent than me and every time we disagree on something he ends up being right approximately 95% of the time. You may think this would be aggravating. It's not. It's fantastically handy. I have learned so much from him and gained so much wisdom!

Anyway, sorry, I'm waffling a bit I know. But I really want to say something:

Throughout my childhood I never had any cause to question the existence of a supreme being or supernatural phenomenons. Society had taught me a number of things as "fact" eg that bacteria exist even though you can't see them and will make you sick, that if you stick your fingers into an electric socket you will die, that if you don't believe in God and ask him to forgive you when you do something wrong you will burn in hell when you die. How was I to know which was true and which was BS? Hence I never questioned religion until a few years ago when I suffered a horrendous tragedy and determining whether there really was life after death became an enormous priority. I threw myself into two years of intense personal research before coming to the conclusion that the evidence for evolution was overwhelming and that the odds of a supreme being existing were infinitessimally small. It followed that ghosts, mediums, psychics and anything supernatural didn't exist either. It was as if someone had lifted a pair of smeared glasses away from my eyes allowing me to see the world as it really was! It was liberating and wonderful beyond words. Finally everything in the world made sense, like why no psychic predicted 9/11, like why mediums can only lead police to locations where murder victims' bodies have already been found and not to the bodies of those still missing. The list goes on and on and on.

Anyway, I guess I just wish with all my heart that everyone in the world could experience the truth the way I have. It would solve so many of the world's problems. That is why I get so passionate when I read intelligent posts like spaceexplorers, because it makes me feel that there is hope. I don't give a shit if it gives him a big ego. Good. It's nice for people to receive praise where it's due and be made to feel good about themselves. There's far too much Tall Poppy Syndrome in the world.

Anyway, I gotta run now. Just want to say that if anybody tells my husband what I said about him being more intelligent than me I will find you and paper-cut your tongue then make you drink lemon juice

Cheers

Thankyou DreamQueen, My head is now larger than it was before

On a completely different and unrelated note...
Anyone seen this music video?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=z-9r-DI7HmM

Certainly very dreamlike. I can't belive that chap really did a Space Sky Dive.
(and obviously the surfer isn't the same guy, but still is a beautiful video)

Omg! The video is absolutely awesome! I'm speechless which is very unusual for me lol!

I think you should start a new thread and post the link there! Seriously, other members would so appreciate this. It's so inspiring and beautiful.

to the awesome power of physics.

Thanks for the link!