Thread: 5000 year old WILD technique. Very easy, and very effective.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

After catching up on this debate, I'm seeing quite a bit of hypocricy from DreamChaser and Ajna. One minute you are trying to claim that OBE/Astral travel is "Real". That some part of yourself is leaving your body and interacting with a discrete world. A wold separate from your own perception. By doing this, you are creating a distinction between yourself and the world around you. You are placing importance on the world you interact with in order to give validation to your own experiences.

Then, the next minute, you are claiming that your personal belief matters more than evidence from the "Real" world around you. You would believe in yourself enough to dismiss (or not require) evidence from a discrete world. You trust your perception over evidence.

Do you see the contradiction? You've locked yourself into an impossible pickle.

I actually try and disolve the distinction between myself and the 'world' because to think you are distinctly seperate is an illusion created by the ego. Where is the ego? We think it is so real but it doesn't exist anywhere but in our individual gross perceptions, we just normally perceive via it. So as much as I can I actually chose not to accept my perceptions, because most of the time if I feel negative emotions its the ego getting excited. It causes us to get into our own little pickle of reality

Who is it that knows there is no I?

Like a tree cannot grow without the sun, water from clouds and the nutrients from the earth etc, I cannot exist without everything around me in co-dependence. So maybe I didn't articulate myself well enough on this point, I respect scientific process and it has givien us so much. I also think science and spiritual support each other and are converging more all the time, but science just needs to catch up and make some instruments which can measure more of the universe. Maybe the LHC will help there? I hope so... I can see there are some of us here who think science is moving further and futher away from the spiritual and it intrigues me as to why this is so after everything I have learnt so far. Spiritual in my view isn't the same as pure creationism which science tends to systematically throw a question mark onto. It just the larger reality we haven't discovered yet, like when we thought the world was flat because we didn't know better yet. It may turn out the universe is actually a hologram and the flat landers were ironically closer to the truth lol, google it.

Originally Posted by potato991

Ok, how about I replace 'Ascended Master' with Jesus and Allah. The rest of your reasoning can remain as is. Based on this 'evidence', explain to me why do you not believe in both Christianity and Islam. The precise arguments you have given for these claims of mysticism apply (quite literally). So how is it ok for you to accept one and not the other, on what basis do the claims you support have merit, but not these others?

Look up synaesthesia, then get back to me on whether you honestly think there is some kind of 'universal' modality of vision.

When did I ever say I didn't belive in Christinity and Islam? I just don't believe it in the way that those three guys are worshipping Ronald in one of those amusing pictures space posted :-)

Modern institutionalised religion has taken all the true essence and individual connection with self away. That connection to yourself and everything you are capable of, and so the essence of most religions is the same. Unfortunately all the good stuff was taken out of Christinanity for some reason around 400AD, the Art of Dying which was a treatise on death and reincarnation amazingly similar to other spiritual works but I won't get annecdotal on you, along with instructions on meditation, physical detox, energetic healing etc etc. I don't know why the people who label themselves Christians don't know this... all their power was taken away and they became subservient to a system and a world view that holds everything outside themselves in higher regard and that we are sinners. I don't know enough about Islam to comment but the true concept of God and Allah is really the same. But the miss understanding of those words means its a whole other thread.

What is interesting is Dr Usui who 're-discovered' Reiki (a japanese system of energetic healing) started off as a university professor lecturing in Christianity. He once had a particularly critically and logically thinking student, a really double whammy, who put the question to him "how do you know any of this is true, its only what you read, have you experienced any of the miracles Jesus performed or witnessed them first hand?" I imagine he really tore him appart with logic and was a bit like space . This caused him question himself and he quit his post as a professor to go in search of the truth, for him he ended with Buddhism (being the science of reality that it is with its own experiments; ... see... Buddhism...) and eventually the discovery of the energetic healing system he called Reiki. So being forced to think critically about something, and then go prove it for yourself beared fruit for that individual.

I have read much on synesthesia mainly in Scientific American Mind and I find it very interesting, particularly how savants have an individual cross pollination of perceptions unique to them. Fortunately this doesn't disprove third eye vision at all, or actually anything spiritual We are not just the biological organs and cells which make up our bodies. As divine as the biological machine of ours is, we are it AND also much more. I'll get back to you when science catches up and I can satisfy the curiosity of your left brain with facts and figures. As with your example of DNA you are siteing a limited view, there is much more convergence with the spiritual in this area if only you would look at the sources I have previously mentioned in other posts, the people joining the dots and putting together the pieces of the puzzle.



So basically what I am saying is we should lay some critical thinking to bear on ourselves. I mean really onto ourselves and not what we think we are, too much may be getting invested here into investigating 'things' and 'stuff' outside of ourselves. Some old sages said the truth can be known by going deeper inside, maybe their wealth of experience is enough reason alone that we should try and prove it to our selves by trying their method of quieting the mind. Rather than filling it with all the measurements about the universe and waiting for everyone else to tell us what we already know if only we could hear it. It just seems like a healthier, happier option to me more in tune with our deeper humanity.

this seems like a technique that'll work for me.

I'm glad I stumbled on this thread

Originally Posted by Ajna

I actually try and disolve the distinction between myself and the 'world' because to think you are distinctly seperate is an illusion created by the ego.

Maybe the unification is an illusion created by the mind.

Originally Posted by Ajna

Spiritual in my view isn't the same as pure creationism which science tends to systematically throw a question mark onto.

It goes a bit beyond throwing question marks. The evidence is conclusive when it comes to showing we evolved from a common ancestor of apes. This begs the question at what point did the spirit kick in?

Originally Posted by Ajna

It just the larger reality we haven't discovered yet, like when we thought the world was flat because we didn't know better yet. It may turn out the universe is actually a hologram and the flat landers were ironically closer to the truth lol, google it.

Bingo, which is why we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions, based on our intuition.

Originally Posted by Ajna

When did I ever say I didn't belive in Christinity and Islam?

Well you can't believe in both, I think that's against the rules. These people are blinded by their own dogma. Blind to the fact they are discounting other peoples belief systems, even though the other supposed 'evidence' is no less compelling than their own.

Do you accept you might be wrong? This is the hallmark of dogma - the inability to accept, in the face of contradictory evidence, that you might be wrong. I will freely accept your position based on the evidence, and I can list countless ways in which you can prove the veracity of your claims. List for me any facts that could discount your belief system. I don't believe there are any, though I'd be interested to hear otherwise.

Originally Posted by Ajna

Modern institutionalised religion has taken all the true essence and individual connection with self away.

To be replaced by the connection with God. Why would they do that, do you suppose they thought something was lacking in their connection with self? In any case, it's the same rub, connection with 'something greater than we can imagine'.

Originally Posted by Ajna

What is interesting is Dr Usui who 're-discovered' Reiki (a japanese system of energetic healing) started off as a university professor lecturing in Christianity

Last I checked Reiki is no more effective than wishful thinking. Show me Reiki doing something that a placebo could not (or praying, for that matter). Don't get me wrong, the placebo effect is a real phenomena, so maybe Reiki just taps into this. All these miracle cures, religion inspired or otherwise, share one thing in common - a lack of compelling (physical) evidence. They cannot fix broken limbs (or regrow amputated ones), repair damaged livers, repair arthritic damage. Conveniently they always stop short of something truly to get excited about, you're always left wondering would the body have fixed that ailment anyway given a bit more time. Again I should mention, it might have some intrinsic value, but is no replacement for modern medicine. It works within the bounds of what the body is already capable of doing (healing itself), not as mysterious as some would have you believe.

Originally Posted by Ajna

Fortunately this doesn't disprove third eye vision at all, or actually anything spiritual

It disproves the notion of a universal mechanism of vision, which is the only way everyone (including blind people) could experience vision in a consistent manner (as claimed by Robert Bruce). You think synesthesia patients see shapes as colours with their third eye? That means it's based on biology. If not, you must accept blind people without the hardware to see could not 'see' with their third eye (at least not how a normal person sees things).

Didn't you read the article I posted? A blind person (from birth), even if their vision is 100% restored, takes several months before they can see properly (to see in the same way as you or I). There is a reason the visual cortex is so large, vision is no trivial task.

Originally Posted by Ajna

We are not just the biological organs and cells which make up our bodies.

You can't know that, it's still a possibility.

Originally Posted by Ajna

I'll get back to you when science catches up and I can satisfy the curiosity of your left brain with facts and figures.

That's the great thing about science, it has a way of revealing the truth.

Originally Posted by Ajna

As with your example of DNA you are siteing a limited view, there is much more convergence with the spiritual in this area if only you would look at the sources I have previously mentioned in other posts, the people joining the dots and putting together the pieces of the puzzle.

You didn't list any sources when you mentioned science is unaware of the true purpose of DNA. If DNA is not the blueprint of an organism (this is not the true purpose), then what pray tell is it for?

Here's an interesting watch, about a philosopher with a theory of the mind. It's not thetheory, but it shows us that your own mind/subconsious plays tricks on you.
nl.youtube.com/watch?v=fjbWr3ODbAo

Originally Posted by Neville J

Here's an interesting watch, about a philosopher with a theory of the mind. It's not thetheory, but it shows us that your own mind/subconsious plays tricks on you.
nl.youtube.com/watch?v=fjbWr3ODbAo

Very interesting vid indeed, I couldn't spot any change in some of the examples at all! Really cool to see how your subconscious can just make huge things like the engine of a plane dissapear....

Originally Posted by potato991

Last I checked Reiki is no more effective than wishful thinking. Show me Reiki doing something that a placebo could not (or praying, for that matter). Don't get me wrong, the placebo effect is a real phenomena, so maybe Reiki just taps into this. All these miracle cures, religion inspired or otherwise, share one thing in common - a lack of compelling (physical) evidence. They cannot fix broken limbs (or regrow amputated ones), repair damaged livers, repair arthritic damage. Conveniently they always stop short of something truly to get excited about, you're always left wondering would the body have fixed that ailment anyway given a bit more time. Again I should mention, it might have some intrinsic value, but is no replacement for modern medicine. It works within the bounds of what the body is already capable of doing (healing itself), not as mysterious as some would have you believe.

Exactly, it's nothing but semantics. Science calls it placebo and doesn't further investiage it, spiritualism calls it the power of the body to heal itself, and focusses on consciously improving this natural process. Just like you can make the dream process consciouss.. lucid dreaming. Reiki is just taking the next step and improving this natural process, just like lucid dreaming is the next step of dreaming.

Originally Posted by Neville J

Here's an interesting watch, about a philosopher with a theory of the mind. It's not thetheory, but it shows us that your own mind/subconsious plays tricks on you.
nl.youtube.com/watch?v=fjbWr3ODbAo

Absolutely fascinating,
Most interesting thing i've seen for a while.
Goes to show how important it is to not presume that what we experience is actually what we experience. A very good example of why we need scientific objectivity to really tackle these issues, and not simply accounts of personal experience and belief. I wonder how much about ourselves and the world around us are these kinds of mental and perceptual tricks?

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Exactly, it's nothing but semantics. Science calls it placebo and doesn't further investiage it, spiritualism calls it the power of the body to heal itself, and focusses on consciously improving this natural process. Just like you can make the dream process consciouss.. lucid dreaming. Reiki is just taking the next step and improving this natural process, just like lucid dreaming is the next step of dreaming.

Not so,
Placebo has been extensively researched, and many interesting details have been found. For example the bigger and more colourful a placebo pill, the more effective it generally is.

Reiki, does not claim to be placebo, and creates a whole set of imaginary rules as to why it works. If a reiki master just said "oh this is placebo, the rest of what we do is just make believe to make the placebo more effective"... THEN, then what you are saying would be nearer to the truth. However they do not do that they claim some pseudoscientific reasoning, reasoning that is almost always at odd with what we have learnt about the real world. So rather than being an honest pursuit of the truth, it becomes a deception... and a very profitable deception for those at the top. Exactly the same can be said of homeopathy, crystal healing and many other money making schemes that hijack a well known principle, rename it, then sell it to people.

Afer all, if you think about it, Homeopathy really is just selling people wax pills, with a drop of plain water on them. Have you seen how much these things cost? Who is getting the money? where does all that wealth go?
Isn't it a little unfair, and a huge con, to sell people (who are either ill or in need of help) the power of thier own mind-bodys placebo healing system, and then lie to them and tell them that it is THIER METHOD or THIER PILL that is doing the work? (and of course thier method or thier pill, arnt cheap!!)

Another thing that has always bothered me about "crystal healing"... is how few of those involved consider the environmental damage caused by mining these crystals. Not very "in tune with the nature and earth" in my book.

I think we should stay open minded, but not swallow everything we hear. The next paradigm shift (the last ones are theory of relativity and quantum mechanics) will be here soon and change our thoughts and believes of the world and ourselfs. Perhaps a unified theory like string theory or maybe a theory of the brain. Not sure what will come as I can not see the future, I can only make predictions. But it'll most curtainly change our perspectives.

Alchemy used to be this mystical kind of thing. Newton himself was an alchemist. Alchemy evolved to chemistry and chemistry evolved to quantum mechanics. This theory about probabilities and predictions goes so deep that even the physicists don't understand it. Even the greatest scientific theory will have trouble explaining consciousness, IMO.

Let's just say there is science on one end of the spectrum, and philosophy on the other. Philosophy is the place for problems where science doesn't have a foot to stand on. Such as the mind-body problem or Qualia. These are called the hard problem of consciousness:

* "Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all?"
* "How is it that some organisms are subjects of experience?"
* "Why does awareness of sensory information exist at all?"
* "Why do qualia exist?"
* "Why is there a subjective component to experience?"
* "Why aren't we philosophical zombies?"
* "Phenomenal Natures are categorically different from behavior"

T.H. Huxley remarked:
how it is that any thing so remarkable as a state of consciousness comes about as the result of irritating nervous tissue, is just as unaccountable as the appearance of the Djin when Aladdin rubbed his lamp".

I copied this last part from wikipedia.

Thanks for responding potato991,

Originally Posted by potato991

Maybe the unification is an illusion created by the mind.

Well science knows enough already actually to tell you that seperateness is illusion.

When you stand up on the earth you feel solid ground (I hope) and so assume you are standing on completely solid matter, seperate from your solid matter. There is more empty space in your feet and the ground than anything solid, its your electron clouds in your feet butting up against and interacting the electron clouds in the environment. So the real illusion there is the fact you believe you are solid, and the ground is solid.

If you look deeper into psychology it will also tell you that your sense of seperateness and ego is a subjective illusion created by the wind, sorry... the mind (I left that typo there for the humor value ). The universe is one seething mass.

Originally Posted by potato991

It goes a bit beyond throwing question marks. The evidence is conclusive when it comes to showing we evolved from a common ancestor of apes. This begs the question at what point did the spirit kick in?

Actually it isn't conclusive at all, where did you read that? You are remerely reciting the majority view and other opinions based on their own research. If you read for example a pure intellectualist/science type book such as Richard Dawkins The Ancestors Tale even he, author of The God Delusion (which is a brilliant thought experiment in scepticism) admits that the evidence for the course of human evolution is not certain beyond all doubt. Sure the female wasn't created from the rib of Adam a few thousand years ago (the mistake of symbolism taken literally) but how do you know we arn't a hybrid between a highly evolved alien lifeform and neolithic type human? you don't... it goes back to the brain in the vat thought experiment. There is so much you could find out if you looked deeper and at the alternative views. Graham Hancocks Supernatural is a look at why human consciousness and culture seemed to explode all of a sudden around 50,000 years ago... its a piece of the puzzle which supports the other view and makes interesting reading.

Originally Posted by potato991

Bingo, which is why we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions, based on our intuition.

I'm not basing anything of what I've said on intuition at all, I don't know why you have interpreted me in that way. I've gathered all the information I possibly could over years and years and researched and experimented to my capacity. I think intuition is something to be valued anyway, I've read psychology journal articles into how experts in their fields rely increasingly on their intuition because it is a way of accessing all their experience and wisdom more easily with their conscious mind out of the way. ('proven' with that brain scan data method') I'd go a step further and tell you intution is the gateway to synchronicity but then you would have to leave behind some of your long held views to be sympathetic to the theories that path throws up.

Originally Posted by potato991

Well you can't believe in both, I think that's against the rules. These people are blinded by their own dogma. Blind to the fact they are discounting other peoples belief systems, even though the other supposed 'evidence' is no less compelling than their own.

I believe in the dogma of neither, I agree with you on this point.

Originally Posted by potato991

Do you accept you might be wrong? This is the hallmark of dogma - the inability to accept, in the face of contradictory evidence, that you might be wrong. I will freely accept your position based on the evidence, and I can list countless ways in which you can prove the veracity of your claims. List for me any facts that could discount your belief system. I don't believe there are any, though I'd be interested to hear otherwise.

Interested supposition, I thought I'd heard a fair few 'facts' from yourself and space about why my 'belief system' is false. My beliefs are a little more sophisticated than religous dogma "you either believe or otherwise your an infidel" etc. Its a blend of everything science tells us, and everything that it can't yet, but by occams razor I believe to be the most likely possibility.

Originally Posted by potato991

To be replaced by the connection with God. Why would they do that, do you suppose they thought something was lacking in their connection with self? In any case, it's the same rub, connection with 'something greater than we can imagine'.

hehe what I was actually infering is the exact opposite of what you interpreted. That is one of the limitations of human communication right there, we put so much faith in our languages to talk about reality. What I think is they replaced a connection with self with a connection to a judgemental father figure type mythology called 'God', with themselves as the go betweens. Stephen Hawking has a greater analytical mind that you or I and his understanding of reality leaves him very humbled and philosophical, he does not automatically assume that he understands the limits of the universe, I like to take a page out of his book because I respect his credentials. Remember scientists used to think that the sun revolves around the earth and before that that we lived on a flat square plane. They can be as ignorant and arrogant as the rest of us.

Originally Posted by potato991

Last I checked Reiki is no more effective than wishful thinking. Show me Reiki doing something that a placebo could not (or praying, for that matter). Don't get me wrong, the placebo effect is a real phenomena, so maybe Reiki just taps into this. All these miracle cures, religion inspired or otherwise, share one thing in common - a lack of compelling (physical) evidence. They cannot fix broken limbs (or regrow amputated ones), repair damaged livers, repair arthritic damage. Conveniently they always stop short of something truly to get excited about, you're always left wondering would the body have fixed that ailment anyway given a bit more time. Again I should mention, it might have some intrinsic value, but is no replacement for modern medicine. It works within the bounds of what the body is already capable of doing (healing itself), not as mysterious as some would have you believe.

So when did you undergo a Reiki teaching and try it yourself? Or were you checking with the opinion of someone who was getting around to doing theirs? I agree with some of your points and some of the points spaceexplorer was making about Reiki, you don't need to have an attunement from a 'certified master' to be able to use energetic healing and the pheonema if it can be proven true has regardless been hijacked by some elements. Did you know that western medicine is the only system not to acknowledge and work with the bioenergetic field of the human body. Why do x-rays sometimes show the outlines of a human hand or arm when it has already been amputated? Thats a scientific instument, maybe they have done some impiracle research. Kilarien photography can capture this bioenergetic field (sometimes called the aura), its a Russian invention that is little known in the west... Our views are quite similar, almost the same, I don't believe systems such as Reiki can replace modern medicine, modern medicine is far superior at treating the symptoms of our dis-ease but Reiki can help to treat the cause. Unfortunately I don't have the capacity to provide you with your impiracle evidence and the explanation is beyond the scope of this post, inconveniently I am pressed by the clock. Try Babra Brennans Hands of Light if you are serious about looking into it for yourself.

Originally Posted by potato991

It disproves the notion of a universal mechanism of vision, which is the only way everyone (including blind people) could experience vision in a consistent manner (as claimed by Robert Bruce). You think synesthesia patients see shapes as colours with their third eye?

Does it? What about DMT, other psychadelics, and their effects on the visual cortex - Rick Strassman has some things for you to ponder, some real koans of theories for the established view. If you think you need a visual cortex to be able to see then that blows the theory of being able to leave the body and see the physical out of the water doesn't it. The visual cortex is indeed an organ of the brain, that is to state what we already know as fact.

Originally Posted by potato991

That's the great thing about science, it has a way of revealing the truth.

Only the truth of its own process. "I surpose this is the case, and so will measure it in this way, with these instruments, and if my theory is correct, yep.. its confirmed and I have impiracle proof." The methods are obviously infinitely complex enough and instruments infinitely sensitive enough to come to undeniable infinitely true conclusions with no possibility of alternatives. Science change their theories all the time, I love the way they are wreastling in quantum physics with experiments where it appears that human consciousness may have been affecting the results. See Youngs Double Slit Experiement as the basis for Heinsenburgs Uncertainty Principle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

Just because the results don't fit in with the established view they are rejected. Thinkers used to get thrown in jail for talking about things outside the accepted view, and yes science still uses the same methods today (not jail ).

Originally Posted by potato991

You didn't list any sources when you mentioned science is unaware of the true purpose of DNA. If DNA is not the blueprint of an organism (this is not the true purpose), then what pray tell is it for?

Well I actually don't know enough myself to feel I am in a position to comment further. Venter, whose government sponsored corportation took over the human genome project a few days before it was sequenced came out with the results saying 3% of DNA is the blueprint of the organism, and the rest is junk DNA. Junk... nature doesn't make mistakes like that, thats the wool getting pulled over our eyes. Here is evidence for the truth namely the Phantom DNA experiment conducted in Russian and repeated again by many;

http://www.twm.co.nz/DNAPhantom.htm

So other comments I have seen here are about the placebo effect... its that annoying thing you have to account for in double blind clinical trials, "who will buy or expensive drug if people know they could heal themselves and it was their natural condition to be free of dis-ease". It's a dirty word in science and indeed it has been heavily research, but they don't understand it as much as they understand the location of consciousness - the what but not that why, a real mystery. Yep, alot of hijacking has been going on with people searching for answers through the New Age movement, believing anything they hear or read and then spending hard earned money on frauds. Also the shocking hijacking of the American health system by the FDA, the pharmaceutical corporations and medical insurance corporations all in collaboration to make a billion dollar industry from keeping people sick for as long as possible. So yes people have been earning money from things which should be freely be available to anyone, ones ability to heal themselves, its like a dark side of human nature manifesting itself, egocentrism in effect. But what is the mechanism of the healing? Is it just biologu? I and alot of others think its something more... could have something to do with that bioenergetic field... what is dark matter anyway? hmm

Meditation... its something spiritual, decades ago scientists saw it as 'hippy trippy' with no basis for the results, wasn't clinically researched and so its not true, sounds a bit like that dogma you were mentioning before :-) Now it has been clinically researched; look at the over 500 research papers into the physiological and psychological effects of Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_Meditation science caught up and is now ready to accept the value of it. Same thing happened with lucid dreaming, thanks to Laberge.

Now I want to try and clarify further what I was saying before about the value of direct experience, we have already been through its subjectivity and the fallability of human perception and congnition yes but... Dreams, we know we have them, some people claim they can't remember them, science can't measure exactly what the dreamer see's but we know them to be subjectively real. It just so happens the concept of dreaming is in all the text books so we are now allowed to attach the label signpost word of 'truth' to them according to science.

The difference between lucid dreaming (LDing) and regular dreaming as we have all experienced it is profound, undeniably a unique experience to regular dreaming (science used to say it wasn't). The difference between Astral Projection and LDing is the same magnitude as the difference between LDing and regular dreaming - this is in my opinion and the opinion of many others the case. Did we really need to wait for science to extend its support to LDing before we could use them to explore ourselves, learn, grow, have fun with them, be immersed in the experience - we knew it was the truth the whole time through out direct experience. The merits of the direct experience of Astral Projection is the same, science just can't measure that subtle phenomena yet. But when (and if they can) it will be just as true tomorrow as it is today and was yesterday.

Spaceexplorer, you say you've experienced these things and other mystical experiences. The fact you have read Paramhansa Yoganandas Autobiography of a Yogi tells me you have an open enough mind to accept some things outside the realms of science which haven't been proven yet as possible. You have to know they don't have all the answers yet, why be a flat lander and live yesterdays truth when you can move forward and be part of tomorrows. Lucid Dreaming, Wakeful Living. We are living in a dream world.

All this talking and debating we are having is just playing to and satisfying the ego of our rational minds, and ironically this ego we filter our perception of the world through isn't something itself which has been proven by science as real and true, only by psychology as something relative. There are also alot of theories and many philosophies of mind with all with their tid bits of evidence to back them up. Science will never stop you being able to experience and work our way closer to the truth of reality unless you let it, you could say its all in your mind. I can already see the retort for this coming "well its all in your mind" you may say. What if my true mind was the same as yours? Everything... mind blowing you could say.

You can't claim the moral high ground and feel your position to be superior because you have employed 'critical thinking', 'logic', 'deduction', 'evidence of science' (which I have decided is sometimes nothing more than self fulfilling prophecy) etc etc. Science always proves itself true, thats its nature, until it proves itself wrong. You can't always apply it to the infinitely complex workings of the universe and to do so and prove its limits temporarily is in the immortal words of Mouse "to deny the very thing which makes us human".

If I resist an attempt at a systematic rebutal of your postulations next post, I intend to work instead to push on the limits of the box and post this evidence I think potato991 and spaceexplorer should see, even if it just excites the theory of possibility in you.

Thanks for reading this rambling post.

Originally Posted by Neville J

I think we should stay open minded, but not swallow everything we hear. The next paradigm shift (the last ones are theory of relativity and quantum mechanics) will be here soon and change our thoughts and believes of the world and ourselfs. Perhaps a unified theory like string theory or maybe a theory of the brain. Not sure what will come as I can not see the future, I can only make predictions. But it'll most curtainly change our perspectives.

So true, the one certainty is that everything is in a state of change, including our theories and perspectives.

Originally Posted by Neville J

Here's an interesting watch, about a philosopher with a theory of the mind. It's not thetheory, but it shows us that your own mind/subconsious plays tricks on you.
nl.youtube.com/watch?v=fjbWr3ODbAo

Here is a few different ones I came across:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=72286

Getting back to the actual technique side of this thread, when I attempted this technique, after a while, I suddenly got this image, which was really easy to maintain, of perfect white. Is this normal?

PS It was a good thing, and I read about it once, and have been trying to do it for a while now, but when I did this, it came without effort.

Originally Posted by Apopholis

Getting back to the actual technique side of this thread, when I attempted this technique, after a while, I suddenly got this image, which was really easy to maintain, of perfect white. Is this normal?

PS It was a good thing, and I read about it once, and have been trying to do it for a while now, but when I did this, it came without effort.

Thats an excellent result I think, some people meditate for years hoping for such things, I think its getting easier to achieve these days for other reasons. How did you feel when you were resting in this visual? What was your state of consciousness? I dare say if you then employed a projection technique your etheric body may have been quite generated and loose.

Here is a radio interview with William Buhlman who is an OBE researcher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh0I2ydhx-E

Look for stuff from Albert Taylor also who used to work for NASA as an engineer but had to resign after the publishing of his book on Astral Projection, interestingly Barbra Brennan who I mentioned in my last post was also a NASA engineer with a shopping list of degrees before she became a healer and started writing books on the subject...

Originally Posted by Ajna

Actually it isn't conclusive at all, where did you read that?

Humans have 23 chromosome pairs, apes have 24. Evolution predicts two of the chromosomes from the common ancestor either merged, or split, to result in this difference. The evidence is irrefutable, we can see human chromosome two is the fused equivalent of two chromosomes in the ape lineage. For more of the details read:

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html

and a more user friendly take

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=229

So the question is, if you *don't* believe in evolution, what exactly has happened here? Why is the human chromosome the literal fusion of two ape chromosomes (complete with redundant telomere/centromere sequences)? If the chromosome split we wouldn't see these redundant 'marker' sequences, meaning apes are closer to the original version (the chromosome structure present in ancestors).

Next you can check out retroviral insertions. Evolution precisely explains why retrovirus sites occur at the exact same location between species. No other theory (at least I've heard of) comes close to explaining these observations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUxLR9hdorI

I could post so much more, evolution witnessed in introduced species, in the lab, nylon eating bacteria. Creationists call this evidence 'micro evolution'. You cannot split evolution into micro and macro categories, as there is nothing to restrict the imagined boundary between the two.

Originally Posted by Ajna

admits that the evidence for the course of human evolution is not certain beyond all doubt

The evidence against the existence of the Romans is not certain beyond all doubt. I said the evidence was conclusive. I'm sure Dawkins would be horrified to hear people think he meant to say the evidence of human evolution wasn't conclusive.

Originally Posted by Ajna

how do you know we arn't a hybrid between a highly evolved alien lifeform and neolithic type human?

We might be, but there is a common ancestor thrown in there somewhere. The common markers had to come from somewhere.

Originally Posted by Ajna

There is so much you could find out if you looked deeper and at the alternative views.

Feel free to explain away the commonality observed between human chromosome two, and the corresponding genes in apes. List *just one* competing theory that fits the evidence, as I'm not even aware of any competing theories.

Originally Posted by Ajna

Why do x-rays sometimes show the outlines of a human hand or arm when it has already been amputated?

Evidence please. Does the amputated limb show a phantom body when x-rayed? If a cyst or tumor is removed, does that remain a permanent attachment to your ethereal form, or does it only work for limbs? What happens if a baby has something amputated, do baby limbs appear when the adult is x-rayed? What about conjoined twins, when separated do they still show phantom versions of each other? When a lizard loses it tail, regrows it, only to lose it again - does it technically have two phantom limbs?

Originally Posted by Ajna

If you think you need a visual cortex to be able to see then that blows the theory of being able to leave the body and see the physical out of the water doesn't it.

Well yes that's exactly what I'm saying (did I miss something?). The qualia of our vision is determined by the physical structure of our visual cortex. This is well established, lesions in the cortex have a predictable result on the field of vision. Either our third eye establishes how it sees through how our visual cortex is wired (we see in ethereal realm as we do normally), or it doesn't - which is it? You can't sit on the fence and say both, and the answer to this question has real implications.

Originally Posted by Ajna

human consciousness may have been affecting the results. See Youngs Double Slit Experiement as the basis for Heinsenburgs Uncertainty Principle.

The observer can be a photonic detector - it doesn't require consciousness to influence the result.

Originally Posted by Ajna

Junk... nature doesn't make mistakes like that, thats the wool getting pulled over our eyes.

I can't believe you think nature is an 'intelligent designer'. Your application of the term mistake is purely subjective, there are no mistakes, no positive/negative mutations in nature. If the world was completely covered by sea, no longer would human evolution look so positive. No better or worse, just different. It's like saying mars is better than jupiter.

Originally Posted by Ajna

Here is evidence for the truth namely the Phantom DNA experiment conducted in Russian and repeated again by many;

http://www.twm.co.nz/DNAPhantom.htm

Sorry I have no idea what that experiment is showing, and the conclusions it's drawing from it. However if your comment on the double slit experiment is anything to go by, any conclusions are likely to be tenuous at best.

Originally Posted by Ajna

You can't claim the moral high ground and feel your position to be superior

My only claim to the moral high ground is admitting I might be wrong. That I may not in fact have the answers. If I have misunderstood, that you are open to the notion you might be wrong, then there is no moral high ground.

Originally Posted by Ajna

I intend to work instead to push on the limits of the box and post this evidence I think potato991 and spaceexplorer should see

Just make sure it's the kind of evidence that is either reproduceable or physical, and that any theories you post are falsifiable (you can't disprove something that doesn't exist).

Moved to Beyond Dreaming.

Definition: Paradigm

In science, the concept of Paradigm derives from the work of T. Kuhn, in particular, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1970). It is used to describe how scientists work within accepted (usually unquestionable) ways of defining, assigning categories, theorizing and procedures within disciplines and during particular historical periods. Different eras of science are characterized by particular world views (paradigms) that are taken as knowledge, and are used as standard forms of solutions to problems, of explaining events and of undertaking research. Paradigm shifts occur when the dominant paradigm is successfully challenged by another paradigm able to incorporate the existing paradigm and also offer wider explanatory power and understanding. You may have noticed or you may not have but the current paradigm is in a transitory phase.

Your views belong to the established paradigm, it is the view I used to have before I began a heavy period of seeking... I wish I could articulate the science of this shift as lucidly as the masters and thinkers from who I have been learning from, I'm not the only one who shares this expanded view of reality I can assure you.

My example of evolution was not effective at proving my point at all, you lead the debate back towards that which you know and are comfortable with which is understandable. The original question you posed was when exactly did the spirit become incorportated with humans. The short answer is it has been there since before time, basically since we evolved into sentient life forms, animals have spirits and chakras also but don't take my word for it as I'm sure you won't, so there was no point entering into a debate about evolution since we have the same views of its mechanics indeed. But we are all drops in the ocean of consciousness including the lesser developed life forms. You have merely defined the science of chromosomes and then proved it correct which is what science does, it doesn't really effect the point I was making though and there is confliciting evidence. I'm suprised you didn't attepmt to defend my criticisms of the limitations of the scientific prosess - are you so confident in its verasity? And besides the following is the final statement from the weblink you provided.

"Unfortunately we can't go back in time and figure out exactly what happened. But studying our DNA is the best way we can retrace history."

If I had Richard Dawkins The Ancestors Tales with me I'd site his surprising quote here for you. You have just picked on the weaker points of my argument which is also understandable because those were the parts that lie most within the realms of solid matter and the temporal - that which can currently be measured. But you haven't tackled any of the deeper questions I was poseing at all within the last few paragraphs of my post. What about my comparisons with lucid dreaming and normal dreaming? Do you agree you knew them to be different without a shadow of doubt? If you don't know what the phantom DNA experiment was showing then you can find out the implications in a larger context if you buy The Divine Matrix although I doubt you ever will - you appear stead fast in your position.

The debate is basically over for me now unless others have any questions. As I said to spaceexplorer days ago in an early post its like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and its never going to be totally understood while you have your western institutionalised rational mind disecting the logic of reality, while you are only willing to meet the issues on the grounds of the immediate physical and with the rules of the changing paradigm of science, it creates a veil in itself. We can never fully describe reality using language, its just applying labels to things - many philosophers can tell you this, I like Alan Watts for this myself. Yet thats exactly what your waiting to happen, for science to explain reality through language labels, and in the mean time your denying yourself the truth of your own experience.

Originally Posted by potato991

Just make sure it's the kind of evidence that is either reproduceable or physical, and that any theories you post are falsifiable (you can't disprove something that doesn't exist).

No amount of evidence is going to prove the expanded view of reality because its outside the current 'rules' of science and the way in which it is able to provide its empiracle evidence. Your only willing to consider something if it can be disproved with the established scientific rules... this is a trap and ensures everything remains within the box by default, I can see the comparison you are drawing to religon by using this. But it doesn't change the fact the truth is out there, its also inside you, and there is definitely at least a possibility that there is more outside sciences box.

Continue to work on lucid dreaming by all means as I'm sure you will, it is definitely a pathway towards expanded awareness and I dare say a deeper connection with your true self and even true spirituality, not the religous dogma we both think is wrong. I was actually quite suprised to meet with guys such as yourself and space who have an open enough mind to accept and achieve lucid dreaming and yet remain indoctrinated in a mechanistic limited reality, to wait for the scientific proof and definitions will mean you may be waiting a long time and it could be hampering your goals and progress.

Sure keep an open mind and temper it with scepticism (as you are) - not believe everything you hear. However, there is a large avenue of research which is waiting for you if you look into the nature of mind and consciousness, to realise the limits of the reality you can and are experiencing with your ego self. This knowledge and wisdom transcends science and your not going to learn about it in modern texts per se. Meditation is a tool, ancient and eternally effective which can be employed on this said task and if you haven't already looked into it yourself I emplore you to do so. For to realise the true essence of your mind will bring you closer to that which you seek, the truth... its not necessarily about gathering all the information you can from outside of yourself because you could be just confusing the truth with mere trivia. I think its more like stripping away the layers of an onion skin and breaking through the veils to get to the essence of reality. Space is so large it seems like the final fronteir but I believe its the larger concept of mind and its connection to the universe in oneness.

I never though I'd change your mind, or asked you to believe me based on my word alone. I only want to provide you and the others reading this forum with some glimmerings of alternative possibilities you may decide to look into, and the methods through which you will prove it for yourself true or false, and not blindly accept others opinions. Especially the things which you take for granted due to the word of science, we now know the world to be round after all - a great and shocking example of a paradigm shift. An increasingly popular theory in science is that time is only relative to the observer and is dimensional, not a straight line - this is not simple relativity, we used to take the linear constant of time for granted but can no longer, how ignorant it may turn out we have indeed been!

All the best...

Thank you for posting this, it's got some evidence to back it up and sounds like it will work like a charm. I too have recently got into meditation and I think this may help me advance.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Moved to Beyond Dreaming.

This is not meant sarcastic, trolling or harsh in any way.
Does a thread get catagorized from its first title post, or the direction the thread heads in?
The first line of the first post was it was a technique used to WILD, is all.

Just asking. It may be of help to many on DV posting threads.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

Does a thread get catagorized from its first title post, or the direction the thread heads in?
The first line of the first post was it was a technique used to WILD, is all.

Just asking. It may be of help to many on DV posting threads.

Well it started as a WILD technique but I think WILD's are sometimes synonymous with Astral Projection and the mention of this claim in one of my posts started a debate about its truth and implications. Sceptics were/are calling for the 'empiracle' evidence...

Its a shame it had to move because there is alot in here to help people with the WILD technique which is directly related to dreaming. Astral Projection is related to Lucid Dreaming and the topics often appear together, but there are those here who think Lucid Dreaming is simply a biological process going on within the boundaries of the skull and the limits of physical temporal reality.

So it was really a choice for the moderators but I just get this feeling its been buried in an obsucre part of this forum because it poses as theatening to peoples established views of what Lucid Dreaming is and if Astral Projection is possible. Beyond Dreaming does define "OBE's" as one of the discussion items however so thats the rules of this particular forum. Its been a very popular thread though indeed and I've enjoyed the debating.

Since we occupy a dream like reality one could suggest that almost any topic is related to dreaming

Moderators, would it be possible to have this topic split? The technique itself can be a useful visualization for WILD, and it would be a shame to see it lost within the discussion here.

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

This is not meant sarcastic, trolling or harsh in any way.
Does a thread get catagorized from its first title post, or the direction the thread heads in?
The first line of the first post was it was a technique used to WILD, is all.

Just asking. It may be of help to many on DV posting threads.

This "technique" is one of the 112 techniques of meditation of Vigyan Bhairav Tantra. The comments are from Osho, detailing the short phrases said by Shiva to Devi when she asked him of the universe.

For easier reference, you can read the full description in the spoiler:

Spoiler for 7th:

With intangible breath in center of forehead, as this reaches heart at the moment of sleep, have direction over dreams and over death itself.

More and more you are entering deeper layers. With intangible breath in center of forehead... If you have known the third eye then you know the intangible breath, the invisible prana in the center of the forehead, and then you know the showering -- the energy, the light showers. as this reaches heart at the moment of sleep, have direction over dreams and over death itself. Take this technique in three parts.

One, you must be able to feel the prana in breath -- the intangible part of it, the invisible part of it, the immaterial part of it. It comes if you are attentive between the two eyebrows; then it comes easily. If you are attentive in the gap, then too it comes, but a little less easily. If you are aware of the center at your navel where breath comes and touches and goes out, it also comes, but with less ease. The easiest way to know the invisible part of breath is to be centered at the third eye. But wherever you are centered, it comes, you begin to feel the prana flowing in. If you can feel the prana flowing in you, you can know when you are going to die. Six months before the day of your death you begin to know, if you can feel the invisible part of breath.

Why do so many saints declare the day of their death? It is easy, because if you can see the content of the breath, the prana flowing into you, the moment the process reverses you can feel it. Before you die, six months before you die, the process reverses: prana begins to flow out of you. Then the breath is not taking it in. Rather, on the contrary, the breath is taking it out -- the same breath. You cannot feel it because you do not know the invisible part -- you know only the visible, you know only the vehicle. The vehicle will be the same. Now the breath is carrying prana in, leaving it there; then the vehicle goes back empty. Then again it is filled with the prana and it comes in. So the ingoing breath and the outgoing breath are not the same, remember.

The ingoing breath and the outgoing breath are the same as vehicles, but the incoming breath is filled with prana and the outgoing breath is empty. You have taken in the prana and the breath has become empty. The reverse happens when you are nearing death. The incoming breath comes prana-less, empty, because your body cannot suck prana from the cosmos. You are going to die; there is no need for it. The whole process has reversed. And when the breath goes out, it takes your prana out. One who has been able to see the invisible can know his day of death immediately. Six months before, the process reverses.

This sutra is very, very significant: With intangible breath in center of forehead, as this reaches heart at the moment of sleep, have direction over dreams and over death itself. While you are falling into sleep this technique has to be practiced -- then only, not at any other time. While you are falling asleep, only then; that is the right moment to practice this technique. You are falling asleep. By and by, by and by, sleep is overtaking you. Within moments, your consciousness will dissolve; you will not be aware. Before that moment comes, become aware -- aware of the breath and the invisible part prana, and feel it coming to the heart. Go on feeling that it is coming to the heart. The prana enters from your heart into the body.

Go on feeling that the prana is coming into the heart, and let sleep come while you are continuously feeling it. You go on feeling, and let sleep come and drown you. If this happens -- that you are feeling invisible breath coming into the heart and sleep overtakes you -- you will be aware in dreams. You will know that you are dreaming. Ordinarily we do not know that we are dreaming. While you dream you think that this is reality. That too happens because of the third eye. Have you seen anyone asleep? His eyes move upwards and become focused in the third eye. If you have not seen, then see. Your child is sleeping... just open his eyes and see where his eyes are. His pupils have gone up and they are focused in the third eye.

I say look at children, do not look at grown-ups -- they are not believable because their sleep is not deep. They will just be thinking that they are asleep. Look at children, their eyes move up. They become focused in the third eye. Because of this focusing in the third eye you take your dreams as real, you cannot feel they are dreams -- they are real. You will know when you get up in the morning. Then you will know that "I was dreaming." But this is the later, retrospective realization. You cannot realize in the dream that you are dreaming. If you realize it, then there are two layers: dream is there but you are awake, you are aware. For one who becomes aware in dreams, this sutra is wonderful.

It says, have direction over dreams and over death itself. . If you can become aware of dreams, you can do two things. You can create dreams -- one. Ordinarily you cannot create dreams. How impotent man is! You cannot even create dreams. If you want to dream a particular thing you cannot dream it; it is not in your hands. How powerless man is! Even dreams cannot be created. You are just a victim of dreams, not the creator. A dream happens to you; you cannot do anything. Neither can you stop it nor can you create it. But if you move into sleep remembering the heart being filled with prana, continuously being touched by prana with every breath, you will become a master of your dreams -- and this is a rare mastery.

Then you can dream whatsoever dreams you like. Just note while you are falling asleep that "I want to dream this dream," and that dream will come to you. Just say, while falling asleep, "I do not want to dream that dream," and that dream cannot enter your mind. But what is the use of becoming the master of your dreaming? Isn't it useless? No, it is not useless. Once you become master of your dreams you will never dream -- it is absurd. When you are master of your dreams, dreaming stops; there is no need for it. And when dreaming stops, your sleep has a different quality altogether, and the quality is the same as of death. Death is deep sleep. If your sleep can become as deep as death, that means there will be no dreaming. Dreaming creates superficiality in sleep. You move on the surface because of the dreams; because of hanging on to the dreams, you move on the surface.

When there is no dreaming you just drop into the sea, its depth is reached. Death is the same. That is why people in India have always been saying that sleep is a short duration of death, and death is a long sleep -- qualitatively they are the same. Sleep is a day-to-day death. Death is a life-to-life phenomenon, a life-to-life sleep. Every day you are tired. You fall into sleep and you regain your vitality, your aliveness in the morning; you are reborn. After a life of seventy or eighty years you are tired completely. Now such short durations of death won't do; you need a great death. After that great death or great sleep, you are reborn with a totally new body.

Once you can know dreamless sleep and can be aware in it, then there will be no fear of death. No one has ever died, no one can die -- that is the only impossibility. Just a day before I was telling you that death is the only certainty, and now I say to you that death is impossible. No one has ever died and no one can die -- that is the only impossibility -- because the universe is life. You are again and again reborn, but the sleep is so deep that you forget your old identity. Your mind is washed clean of the memories. Think of it in this way. Today you are going to sleep: it is just as if there were some mechanism -- and soon we will have this -- like that which can erase on a tape recorder, which can wipe a tape clean so that whatsoever was recorded is no more there.

The same is possible with memory, because memory is really just a deep recording. Sooner or later we will have a mechanism which can be put on the head and it will clean your mind completely. In the morning you will no longer be the same person because you won't be able to remember who it was who went to sleep. Then your sleep will look like death. There will be a discontinuity; you won't be able to remember who went to sleep. This is happening naturally. When you die and you are reborn, you cannot remember who died. You start again.

With this technique, first you will become the master of your dreams -- that is, dreaming will cease. Or if you want to dream you will be able to dream, but dreaming will become voluntary. It will not be non-voluntary, it will not be forced upon you; you will not be a victim. Then the quality of your sleep will become just like that of death. Then you will know that death is sleep. That is why this sutra says: have direction over dreams and over death itself. you will know that death is just a long sleep -- and helpful and beautiful because it gives you new life; it gives you everything anew. Death ceases to be... with cessation of dreaming, death ceases to be. There is another meaning to gaining power over death, direction over death. If you can come to feel that death is just a sleep, you will be able to direct it.

If you can direct your dreams, you can direct your death also. You can choose where you are to be born again, to whom, when, in what form; you will become master of your birth also. Buddha died... I am not referring to his last life, but to his last-but-one life, before he became Buddha. Before dying he said, "I will be born to such and such parents; such will be my mother, such will be my father. But my mother will die immediately... when I am born my mother will die immediately. Before I am born my mother will have certain dreams." Not only do you gain power from your dreams, you gain power from others' dreams also.

So Buddha, as an example, said, "Certain dreams will be there. When I will be in the womb, my mother will have certain dreams. So whenever any woman has these dreams in this sequence, know well I am going to be born to her." And it happened. Buddha's mother dreamed the same sequence. The sequence was known all over India, because it was no ordinary statement. It was known to everyone, particularly those who were interested in religion and the deeper things of life and the esoteric ways of life. It was known, so the dreams were interpreted. Freud was not the first interpreter -- and, of course, not the deepest. Only in the West was he the first. So Buddha's father immediately called dream interpreters, the Freuds and Jungs of those days, and he asked, "What does this sequence mean? I am afraid.

These dreams are rare, and they go on repeating in the same sequence. There are one, two, three, four, five, six dreams continuously being repeated. There are the same dreams, as if one is seeing the same film again and again. What is happening?" So they told him, "You are going to be the father of a great soul -- one who is going to be a buddha. But then your wife is going to be in danger, because whenever this buddha is born it is difficult for the mother to survive." The father asked, "Why?" The interpreters said, "We cannot say why, but this soul who is going to be born has made a statement that when he will be born again, the mother will die immediately."

Later on Buddha was asked, "Why did your mother die immediately?" He said, "Giving birth to a buddha is such a big event that everything else becomes futile afterwards. So the mother cannot exist. She will have to be born again to start anew. It is such a climax giving birth to a buddha, it is such a peak, that the mother cannot exist beyond it." So the mother died. And Buddha had said in his previous life that he would be born while his mother was standing under a palm tree -- and it happened. The mother was standing under a palm tree -- standing while Buddha was born. And he had said, "I will be born while my mother is standing under a palm tree, and I will take seven steps. Immediately, I will walk. These are the signs I give to you," he said, "so that you will know that a buddha is born." And he carried out everything.

And this is not only so about Buddha. It is so about Jesus, it is so about Mahavir, it is so about many others. Every Jain Tirthankara has predicted in his previous life how he is going to be born. And they have given particular dream sequences -- that such and such will be the symbols -- and they have told how it will happen. You can direct. Once you can direct your dreams you can direct everything, because dream is the very stuff of this world. This life is made out of the stuff of dreams. Once you can direct your dreams you can direct everything. This sutra says, over death itself. Then one can give a certain birth, a certain life to oneself. We are just victims. We do not know why we are born, why we die. Who directs us -- and why? There seems to be no reason. It all seems just a chaos, just accidental. It is because we are not masters. Once we are masters it is not like this.

I knew that this thread would be sketchy in it's discussion from the get go.
The technique itself belongs in beyond dreaming, but got enough attention in the lucidity forum as a WILD to warrant it staying there, but the further discussion on Trataka 3rd eye meditation and it's existence, credibility etc, meant that it should be split or moved.

Originally Posted by Licity

Moderators, would it be possible to have this topic split? The technique itself can be a useful visualization for WILD, and it would be a shame to see it lost within the discussion here.

I was working my way through splitting the thread, but even in the posts that go off on tangents it's been related directly to the original post and dreaming, and that makes it impossible to split without ruining the conversation flow.

If the OP or anyone else would like to create a thread for this in one of the lucid forums, then we can direct different types of discussion into two threads, otherwise the thread will stay in Beyond Dreaming with a permanent redirect in the original forum it was posted in.

If you have any questions about this, please PM me so that discussion can continue uninterrupted.

Originally Posted by ClouD

This "technique" is one of the 112 techniques of meditation of Vigyan Bhairav Tantra. The comments are from Osho, detailing the short phrases said by Shiva to Devi when she asked him of the universe.

Indeed the commens are not very interesting, thats more like flavor text to the technique. The technique itself consits only out of one line of text. The purpose of this I believe is because the ability is already innate. The only way to go is practise, not reading. But you know, science also already has acknowledged the function of the pineal gland as a part of the endocrine gland system, the system which regulates the hormones within the body. I mean, this is science.. shouldn't be in beyond dreaming, but ok, I guess this topic did got kinda out of hand

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Of course I've thought about that, but your conclusion makes no sense.
When I see something in the waking world I am not seeing with my physical eye in any direct sense of the word. The eye, like a camera, encodes the retinal reactions into bioelectric impulses which are then translated in the brain.
The brain can be seen as a kind of organic Virtual Reality modeling system. It is with the brain that we see, not the eye. The eye is simply the source of the input. There needs be no "third eye".

When dreaming, Instead of getting the signal input from the eye, the brain uses its own memory reserves to generate the virtual world. There is no eye at all, there is only perception. The eye you experience in a dream is also part of that memory modeled virtual world. It is not acting as an eye, it is simply the prerecorded experiences of what it feels like to have an eye.

So no i am not convinced by the existence of a third eye.
I am however fully convinced by the extremely potent abilities of the human mind as a fantastic biological computer capable of modeling the world in which it inhabits. It is easily proven, and has been on many occasions, through various experiments. People with various pieces of thier brain missing, who suddenly loose otherwise normal perceptual abilities. Also there have been experiments Exciting neurons through electrical impulses causing utterly vivid and convincing hallucinations for the subject.

The dream world is essentially no different from the waking world you are experiencing right now. The only real difference is the source of the data input. Right now your virutal world is being created via sense data, whilst dreaming it is created by recorded sense data.

When you enter a dream it can be seen as a very simple process. Your mind switches from a live stream of sensory data, to prerecorded data.

It is of course a billion times more complex than this, but that is the essential process.

I'm curious if not the third eye, what made me see the future vividly on multiple trips and sober moments?

Personaly i think you are underestimating the power of both your own mind and lucid dreaming.

The mind is complex and wonderful but perhaps you are also underestimating the power of the universe and nature.

as we know, imagination, and imagery skills deteriorate with age. the pineal gland also shrinks and calcifies as we grow older. could these be linked?