The Hell Realms

[The Cusp]

There have been various mystics throughout time who have described various visions of heaven and hell shown to them in dream states. Their accounts are all very similar, and I recognize places I've been to in those descriptions. I'm not trying to say these realms are real places that actually exist somewhere, but I would like to show how it might be possible for different people to dream of the exact same place. The mechanics that create a hell realm are the same as those that create bad tooth nightmares. Your focus gets trapped in a circular logic that keeps repeating. You could actually consider it a form of mental illness or insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. But the tooth dream is just an over simplified version. Every element in our dreams comes from our own personal schemata and archetypes systems. Some of these systems are more developed than others. Teeth obviously don't relate much to our daily life, or at least we don't focus on them outside of maintenance. They could thus be considered to be a very simple model, which is why cavities and broken teeth only leads back to more cavities and broken teeth. Other less developed schemata systems would also yield dreams with a very limited number of associations. Your most basic negative emotions and thought patterns are fundamentally simplistic by their very nature. Killing people in a fit of rage is not something that is well thought out. These simplistic negative thought forms, being undeveloped, have fewer associations. Most of these associations only lead back to the source, creating a circular logic, almost like walking into a house of mirrors. Since these are really basic primal thought forms, the basic associations they would have would be pretty much the same for every single person, no matter what culture they are from. It's the sum total of these basic associations, which being almost the same for everyone, create a coherent realm. So in theory, different people could each individually recreate seemingly identical worlds.

[Licity]

This does make a lot of sense(not to mention the first theory I have seen that explains the similarities that does NOT assert they are real places). But what about the handful of mystics with these reports that do have more developed negative thought schemata? Lets say that one of those mystics did kill someone in a fit of rage, and would therefore have a very strong schema linking negativity to the setting of the murder. If they report seeing similar visions, doesn't that imply that the common visions are partially controlled by something not part of schemata?

[juroara]

your question licity, would be no different than asking if there is a heaven or do we dream one. or even, do we dream or do we visit the astral? hell realms aren't the only things that show common similarities. so do heavenly realms. my sister had a very eccentric architect teacher, who talked about the archetypes of dreams. one of them were romanesque buildings. there were accounts of people having spiritual dreams, with these heavenly romanesque buildings. which, to us westerners doesn't seem surprising thanks to classical artwork with angels and romanesque buildings. the problem was, some of the people having these spiritual dreams were not westerners and were not exposed to western architecture. so why did romanesque buildings, which they have never seen before, come to symbolize a heavenly place? this isn't the only example of an archetype in dreams across cultures what's going on? one of the theories the teacher presented was, the sum of human consciousness is behind it. and we are all connected to it, and even feeding it. and a lot of the images in our dream are based on this sum. but who knows! maybe its both! I read a NDE that was hellish. and when the person came to, he believed he created the hell scenario entirely from his mind - because the demons knew everything about them. Every little memory, and all of his most intimate thoughts. and he decided, that wasn't possible, unless the demon was himself. but at the same time, the visuals were like something dante wrote.

[Phantasos]

The topic of achetypes in dreams is very interesting. One day I read about dream cartography (modification of DJ when your goal is to create a map or your dream world), and after checking some maps shared by other people, I was striked by amazing thought. I got book about Icelandic mythology and re-read a chapter about cosmology of ancient Icelanders. "Hell', - thought I. Indeed it does not make much sense if we compare it with real world, but it is another story when you compare it with modern dream maps. It shares a lot in common! The most specular were General layout of world The Bridge (a lot of people once in a while had a dream about very big Bridge crossing the river, usually it is hard to cross it due to some obstacles) - ancient Icelanders had a river with a bridge over it leading to some frosty realm. The Big Building - most of people have it, though due to lack of high buildings ancient Icelanders had The Big Tree (Iggdrasil) which (according to mytholody) connects different worlds. In dreams The Big Building is also somehow connected to transportation: there are a lot of floors, elevators and so on. "Hell realms" or "Lower worlds" as shamans call it, also can be reached from an LD, though you need to find a certain place in your dream world which have transit to it. Sometimes people dreams about them when sick or when using some drugs. Probably this "realms" are very deep layers of our mind (if we take non-mystic approach).

[Licity]

your question licity, would be no different than asking if there is a heaven or do we dream one. or even, do we dream or do we visit the astral? I was actually asking if the common themes might be hardcoded into human DNA, or something similar, but that's always a possibility.

[oniman7]

All right, I propose a research experiment. I think that everybody who wishes to participate should, over a 1-2 month period, explore all of their lucid dreams and create a map of it ( yes, dream cartography ). When the time is up, they should PM their maps to me ( or whoever wants to do it ) and we should look for common areas. Phantasos, maybe you could create a dream cartography guide, and create a link to it so we can have a common basis to work off of.

[Phantasos]

Phantasos, maybe you could create a dream cartography guide, and create a link to it so we can have a common basis to work off of. Ok, I will try to write tutorial for how to make dream map. I think I've read an article about dream mapping in English but it was too "mystical" and not clear to begin with, so a tutorial in practical and neutral manner will be useful to anyone interested.

[Phantasos]

Phantasos, maybe you could create a dream cartography guide, and create a link to it so we can have a common basis to work off of. Done - here is A Practical Introduction to Dream Cartography.

[oniman7]

Thanks Phantasos . Now, who would like to participate? I would like to see what common places there are in dreams. Refer to my above post, and PM if you want to help.

[oniman7]

Also, take a look at this and tell me it doesn't seem a lot like the stereotypical picture of heaven and hell? http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...247#post986247

[tommo]

I've started this after I read the other thread. I honestly cannot remember a single dream I've had with a building or a bridge. I really don't think I've ever had one. If I go to another place in a dream I just end up there. I don't take a bus or train or go through a building. Weird?