Thread: Sony declares psychic phenomena real

it's like a merry-go-round...weeeeeeee!!!!

i have been thoroughly convinced (for the sake of argument) that science has tested and shown no conclusive proof of any supernatural phenomena.

so what if you experience it, like DeathCell up there? is it real at that point, regardless of science? or must you automatically commit yourself to the nearest nuthouse (since there would be no logical alternative to your obvious disconnect with reality)? we're talking about a mind blowing experience here (for the sake of argument), like your dead relative visiting your house or some other psychicy thing.

do you see science as having refuted the notion of the supernatural, or just as not able to find, validate and accept?

are all these stories that we keep hearing just coming from mass delusions, attention seekers and mad hatters? have you met these people?

Originally Posted by O'nus

There are few common things that DeathCell said here that I want to respond to but in address to everyone.



Neither does anything else. There is not a single other concept that "has all the answers" - nothing does. It is better to ask, "What can most commonly offer you the answer?"

Science is just a method for figuring out our physical world. Meditation can also and simple pondering can help you come up with the answer for instance. When figuring out highly complicated workings of our world it has shown much strength. One can not simply rely on science to figure everything out, for even the scientists of sorts are following their mind, body and spirit. People put too much trust in simply science and not enough trust in themselves. Some of the greatest inventors of our times were not only scientific men but spiritual men also.

It is also not disproof of something, of course.

Of course

This is also true of klampops. You don't know what those are, but I do, and they are real to me. You cannot disprove them. Thus, they could still be real.

I think that people don't seriously believe or have experienced or have said to have experienced klampop as psychic phenomena has been. Their needs to be a line drawn between what people actually claim to have experienced and any gibberish one can spouter. Obviously you can't disprove, but at least one should try to figure out what a large percentage of people have "claimed" to experience.. No one is claiming to have experienced klampop.

This is not something to stand your beliefs on - it is flimsy and highly inclined to make you rely on dogmatism instead.

Obviously one should not believe what others are telling you just because, but a lot of us have experienced "psychic phenomena" That is why their is a lot of belief, it's hard to not believe something you experience firsthand.. It's kind of like getting hit by a bus and than telling yourself, I didn't get hit by a bus.. That's what your asking of a lot of people.

So have those people on drugs, hallucinations, dreams, etc. Just because you experienced them does not mean that they are reproducible to show to the rest of the world. They are just as real to everyone else as an imaginary concept if you have no means of reproduction.

Not really, just because something is not reproducible on demand to show the rest of the world doesn't put it in the same place as something completely imaginary. That would mean if someone fainted on occasion and was unable to do it on command, they would be on the same plain as something completely made up. I'm not sure how you came up with this..?

The only real reason anyone really believes in psychic powers is because they think it is real. It is a predisposition.

Bold assumptions. I never believed in psychics, or being able to tell the future until I experienced it. It's not a predisposition, but assuming that's how everyone comes to believe in psychic powers might be.

If you do not believe in psychic powers, there is no means to convince this person otherwise (just like an atheist to a theist).

Not necessarily, if you were a close friend or relative.. And had a lot of contact with someone that was "Psychic" you would probably notice many odd things.. On the other hand if you want to test someone in buildings for hours on end, it's probably not working out.

However, I can easily demonstrate gravity or some other reproducible scientific concept to someone.

Easily demonstrate the precession of the equinox, and the rotations of our planets and the sun.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Science is just a method for figuring out our physical world. Meditation can also and simple pondering can help you come up with the answer for instance. When figuring out highly complicated workings of our world it has shown much strength. One can not simply rely on science to figure everything out, for even the scientists of sorts are following their mind, body and spirit. People put too much trust in simply science and not enough trust in themselves. Some of the greatest inventors of our times were not only scientific men but spiritual men also.

Keep in mind, I am saying those things of science as well.

I think that people don't seriously believe or have experienced or have said to have experienced klampop as psychic phenomena has been. Their needs to be a line drawn between what people actually claim to have experienced and any gibberish one can spouter. Obviously you can't disprove, but at least one should try to figure out what a large percentage of people have "claimed" to experience.. No one is claiming to have experienced klampop.

That's exactly it - I am not claiming to have experienced psychic phenomenon. I'm just counter-exampling that personal experiences are only proof for the person in question - no one else.

Not really, just because something is not reproducible on demand to show the rest of the world doesn't put it in the same place as something completely imaginary. That would mean if someone fainted on occasion and was unable to do it on command, they would be on the same plain as something completely made up. I'm not sure how you came up with this..?

My point is that no one else will believe you unless you are able to reproduce the conditions that lead to the conclusion.

Bold assumptions. I never believed in psychics, or being able to tell the future until I experienced it. It's not a predisposition, but assuming that's how everyone comes to believe in psychic powers might be.

Exactly. Only once you experienced it for yourself did you believe it. Though, this was entirely on your own, without anyone else adding to the psychic phenomenon.

Not necessarily, if you were a close friend or relative.. And had a lot of contact with someone that was "Psychic" you would probably notice many odd things.. On the other hand if you want to test someone in buildings for hours on end, it's probably not working out.

You can notice a lot of "odd" things with anyone and tests not working out on a psychic ought to be universal if the psychic has real powers. Are you saying you cannot reproduce the same psychic results? Or are they just random and "come to you naturally"?

Easily demonstrate the precession of the equinox, and the rotations of our planets and the sun.

"Easily" is a preposition you're using to trap me. Obviously the equinox can be demonstrated by watching the skies and watching the star maps, etc. etc.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Keep in mind, I am saying those things of science as well.

Of course, I'm simply saying to many people simply are now only relying on science.. Which is wonderful but we can't forget our spiritual self's, or our intuition.

but without trusting our intuition a lot of the greatest inventions wouldn't have happened.. my memory is fading me, what inventor had that dream.. ahh damn.

That's exactly it - I am not claiming to have experienced psychic phenomenon. I'm just counter-exampling that personal experiences are only proof for the person in question - no one else.

Yes but personal experiences are not necessarily imagined or disillusioned. Simply unprovable to this point. (This is where the ridiculous comes in) I think it's important to differentiate seriously between the crazy and the very often "experienced", figuring out exactly why people report these all the time.. If it isn't a real Psychic phenomena why the constant occurrence prevalent in EVERY SOCIETY. So far all we have are some failed experiments.

My point is that no one else will believe you unless you are able to reproduce the conditions that lead to the conclusion.

I don't have the ability to prove it to the world, or make the scientific world believe me. I can't do it on command, it comes and it goes. Regardless of what is believed or not... if I murdered you it wouldn't matter. If anyone believed you were killed. After you die I can't reproduce the condition or the conclusion if your body is gone.

Hmmm... Interesting comparison..

Exactly. Only once you experienced it for yourself did you believe it. Though, this was entirely on your own, without anyone else adding to the psychic phenomenon.

Yes, which is why I'm trying to figure out why the world is so far behind?

You can notice a lot of "odd" things with anyone and tests not working out on a psychic ought to be universal if the psychic has real powers. Are you saying you cannot reproduce the same psychic results? Or are they just random and "come to you naturally"?

Yes they come and go, sometimes if I concentrate real hard I can come up with something... but it really has to be important for me.. I have had no training... just what I've come accustomed to..

I meditate, sometimes I get hit with "visions" but really they are usually important to me... Not what color and number card are in lab room number 364.

"Easily" is a preposition you're using to trap me. Obviously the equinox can be demonstrated by watching the skies and watching the star maps, etc. etc.
~

I truly respect your intelligence and ability to discern things.


Watching the skies is pure beauty.

"We managed to prove something that rocks all of our current knowledge about the world. It seems we can't market it, but we could make Sony go down in history as the company responsible for one of the most important scientific discoveries ever... But let's just keep it all hidden and do nothing."

Makes sense.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Of course, I'm simply saying to many people simply are now only relying on science.. Which is wonderful but we can't forget our spiritual self's, or our intuition.

Do not think that scientists are blind followers of their fellows. Have you never seen the process for journal publishing? I cannot think of a more excruciating editing and criticism for publishing than that. Further, how do you think scientific inquiry begins?

Yes but personal experiences are not necessarily imagined or disillusioned. Simply unprovable to this point. (This is where the ridiculous comes in) I think it's important to differentiate seriously between the crazy and the very often "experienced", figuring out exactly why people report these all the time.. If it isn't a real Psychic phenomena why the constant occurrence prevalent in EVERY SOCIETY. So far all we have are some failed experiments.

Firstly, the point is that your psychic abilities are not different to any of us than a "crazy" persons psychic abilities. It exists on the same level to anyone outside of your perception.

Further, you think it is a reinforcement that many people think that they have psychic abilities? There are far too many people that make silly psychic predictions and reinforce it via the silliest means. Any research on self-fulfilling prophecy or confirmation bias will expose a significant portion of these self-delusions.

The fact is, we think we are special. We want to feel special. We look for those things that reinforce us being "special". That does not mean that your methods for doing so are true or infallible.

I don't have the ability to prove it to the world, or make the scientific world believe me. I can't do it on command, it comes and it goes. Regardless of what is believed or not... if I murdered you it wouldn't matter. If anyone believed you were killed. After you die I can't reproduce the condition or the conclusion if your body is gone.

Hmmm... Interesting comparison..

It is interesting because I think it is a bad one. Firstly, you have seen murder shows - there are many ways to find the context and all the events that lead to a death. Private events are reproducible given right tools. This is how science works.

"It comes and goes" is a very weasel way out of proving yourself because it excuses responsibility. If your ability "comes and goes" this means that you are not in control of them. Thus, they are not your ability, the are a gift. This is where you must create a weird world of universal connection with everything, spirituality, etc. However, there are still so many holes and flaws within that as well. It is a long path of arguing and bickering and, in my opinion (which I feel is well thought out), it is a long struggle just to make the self feel important and special.

Think about it - how special would any 'psychic' ability be if you were the ONLY person alive? Is it possible that some people only want powers because of the fantasy and how it interacts with others?

Yes, which is why I'm trying to figure out why the world is so far behind?

If only you knew how backwards that sounds to me. Do not think you are the only one that has convinced them self of having a psychic power. Everyone has at some point. It's just a consequence of having a consciousness.

Yes they come and go, sometimes if I concentrate real hard I can come up with something... but it really has to be important for me.. I have had no training... just what I've come accustomed to..

Which only reinforces the self-fulfilling prophecy and confirmation bias.

Watching the skies is pure beauty.

Totally agree.

~

High Hunter ...I just love your location ! Maybe some day (or night) I'll stop by for a visit up there :-)

Another thought......what if you combined science with spirituality.....after all, Science has proven many strange things that we wouldn't think of as physically possible. ....Have you ever read about the string theory by Brian Greene ?

Originally Posted by O'nus

Do not think that scientists are blind followers of their fellows. Have you never seen the process for journal publishing? I cannot think of a more excruciating editing and criticism for publishing than that. Further, how do you think scientific inquiry begins?

No, I think followers of scientists are blind followers.(The ones not really studying and believing what they hear on TV.) I'm not questioning the process, never was. But some of the greatest inventions of our time were done by men who were also spiritual or listened to their intuition far more than a lot of the current people do.

Firstly, the point is that your psychic abilities are not different to any of us than a "crazy" persons psychic abilities. It exists on the same level to anyone outside of your perception.

Than that is just ignorance. Psychic ability talk is far more wide spread than the Spaghetti monster or any other "crazy" idea. Everything unprovable is not necessarily on the same level of crazy. It's just peoples skewed perception and nothing else.

Further, you think it is a reinforcement that many people think that they have psychic abilities? There are far too many people that make silly psychic predictions and reinforce it via the silliest means. Any research on self-fulfilling prophecy or confirmation bias will expose a significant portion of these self-delusions.

Yes I don't doubt their are cases of that. But when a large percentage of the population expresses very similar stories and cases, something is probably going on. Either its one mass delusion or something is happening. This "delusion" has survived from before the Egyptians till modern day, magick and shamanism have been done on every corner of the world before the modern day commerce and ability to travel the world. It's the worlds largest propagated, "mass delusion" that has no obvious connections between all the worlds cultures.

Onus I love and respect your need for hard concrete proof, I'm a very situational person, I like to weigh out my options. When something survives for hundreds of thousands of years, a lot more study needs to be put into this.

The fact is, we think we are special. We want to feel special. We look for those things that reinforce us being "special". That does not mean that your methods for doing so are true or infallible.

I don't feel special, I actually view our race as very infantile and sadistic. I have very little respect for what my brethren have done throughout the years. I view our race as nothing but another part of the Animal kingdom that has happened to taken over the world and made it our own. All the while disrespecting nature and displacing it. I also view the potential for a far more civil and technologically advanced civilization existing in a part of the expanding universe that has had double the time to evolve that we have. I far from view myself or our race as special.

Silly monkeys,
give them thumbs they forge a blade
and where there's one they're bound to divide it,
right in two.

Silly monkeys,
give them thumbs they make a club
and beat their brother down.

It is interesting because I think it is a bad one. Firstly, you have seen murder shows - there are many ways to find the context and all the events that lead to a death. Private events are reproducible given right tools. This is how science works.

Yes I understand how investigations for murder work, though murder shows are very much dramatic.... You are a philosopher type, so you should have no problem imagining very specific conditions. No evidence, no location, no eyewitnesses. It's impossible to reproduce if nothing can be found. If someone has seizures and while being studied they don't have one doesn't that make it any less real? Science works by waiting or making something happen, if it is uncontrollable and sporadic and some scientists isn't their to witness it what can be done..

"It comes and goes" is a very weasel way out of proving yourself because it excuses responsibility. If your ability "comes and goes" this means that you are not in control of them. Thus, they are not your ability, the are a gift. This is where you must create a weird world of universal connection with everything, spirituality, etc. However, there are still so many holes and flaws within that as well. It is a long path of arguing and bickering and, in my opinion (which I feel is well thought out), it is a long struggle just to make the self feel important and special.

That is nothing but your opinion and your own form of confirmation bias.

Think about it - how special would any 'psychic' ability be if you were the ONLY person alive?

Loaded question. I don't think its special or simply a human trait. If I were the only person alive I'd probably need it more as to protect myself from wild beasts..

Is it possible that some people only want powers because of the fantasy and how it interacts with others?

Anything is possible.

If only you knew how backwards that sounds to me. Do not think you are the only one that has convinced them self of having a psychic power. Everyone has at some point. It's just a consequence of having a consciousness.

I'm sure it does, because you only look at the evolution of our technology and forget how we once survived.
Everyone has is not true. I don't see how psychic experiences are a consequence of having a consciousness, unless your trying to prove my point. An ironic way you worded yourself.

It's not a surprise to see humanity abandon their inner selves for materiality. Tv jockeys and keyboard warriors.

Which only reinforces the self-fulfilling prophecy and confirmation bias.

So could any form of trying anything than? Are we to live in a box of is this really happening from day to day? Now you are trying to say an attempt to use psychic powers would only be confirmation bias, than how am I to consciously attempt it?

I didn't ask for this, the shrooms did it to me. I was just taking a god damn bath.

Yes I don't doubt their are cases of that. But when a large percentage of the population expresses very similar stories and cases, something is probably going on. Either its one mass delusion or something is happening. This "delusion" has survived from before the Egyptians till modern day, magick and shamanism have been done on every corner of the world before the modern day commerce and ability to travel the world. It's the worlds largest propagated, "mass delusion" that has no obvious connections between all the worlds cultures.

Onus I love and respect your need for hard concrete proof, I'm a very situational person, I like to weigh out my options. When something survives for hundreds of thousands of years, a lot more study needs to be put into this

.

This is an interesting point DeathCell, and i know we often end up on either side of the fence with these things, and often argue, but i do respect your opinion, and don't want to fall into that trap again.. so here's my thoughts on this particular issue...

It is very intersting that certain beliefs span the world populations, and it does make one think that this may be down to there being something else going on. Yet, perhaps our interpretations may be influenced by other factors.

I'll try and give an example of what i'm trying to say...

Now, it's a universal human trait, to see faces, and especially eyes, in natural formations... clouds, tree bark... the grain in the wallpaper etc.
Does this mean that there really are eyes in these things?
Obviously not... what it does demonstrate is that something in our psychological and biological makeup is designed to try and find patterns that look like eyes and faces. This would have been an evolutionary benificial trait... its much better to mistake patterns in the trees for eyes in the forest and run... rather than to miss real eyes and be eaten.

I think the same can be said for a lot of ghost sightings, and many psychic experiences...
whilst they are common throughout human cultures... maybe it is not because these things are "real" but because something in our makeup as humans is designed to look for enterties and patterns.

I hope im making sense with this...

but essentially, just because something is common, dosn't always mean that the common conclusion is the correct one.
I do agree however that further study is always vital to get to the truth...
where you and i differ is that i'm more inclined to think that simpler, natural solutions are the correct answer....

For me, the "ghost" that i saw in the shadows the other night... is more likely a result of my psychology and evoloutionary programming (not to mention cultural programming... from all the stories, films etc. etc. about such things)
rather than a genuine paranormal occurence that contradicts many of the things science has shown us about the universe.

Who knows though... human knowledge is growing with every generation.

Personally i'd be happy to be wrong, but for the time being, i feel that my conclusions fit more comfortably with current scientific findings. And for me that is what keeps me reasonably skeptical.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

.

This is an interesting point DeathCell, and i know we often end up on either side of the fence with these things, and often argue, but i do respect your opinion, and don't want to fall into that trap again.. so here's my thoughts on this particular issue...

It is very intersting that certain beliefs span the world populations, and it does make one think that this may be down to there being something else going on. Yet, perhaps our interpretations may be influenced by other factors.

I'll try and give an example of what i'm trying to say...

Now, it's a universal human trait, to see faces, and especially eyes, in natural formations... clouds, tree bark... the grain in the wallpaper etc.
Does this mean that there really are eyes in these things?
Obviously not... what it does demonstrate is that something in our psychological and biological makeup is designed to try and find patterns that look like eyes and faces. This would have been an evolutionary benificial trait... its much better to mistake patterns in the trees for eyes in the forest and run... rather than to miss real eyes and be eaten.

I think the same can be said for a lot of ghost sightings, and many psychic experiences...
whilst they are common throughout human cultures... maybe it is not because these things are "real" but because something in our makeup as humans is designed to look for enterties and patterns.

I hope im making sense with this...

but essentially, just because something is common, dosn't always mean that the common conclusion is the correct one.
I do agree however that further study is always vital to get to the truth...
where you and i differ is that i'm more inclined to think that simpler, natural solutions are the correct answer....

For me, the "ghost" that i saw in the shadows the other night... is more likely a result of my psychology and evoloutionary programming (not to mention cultural programming... from all the stories, films etc. etc. about such things)
rather than a genuine paranormal occurence that contradicts many of the things science has shown us about the universe.

Who knows though... human knowledge is growing with every generation.

Personally i'd be happy to be wrong, but for the time being, i feel that my conclusions fit more comfortably with current scientific findings. And for me that is what keeps me reasonably skeptical.

It makes sense because we do look for patterns and similarities. Familiarity.

rather than a genuine paranormal occurence that contradicts many of the things science has shown us about the universe.

I don't see how science has ever contradicted psychic visions.

I don't expect you to just believe that this happens, especially without experiencing it. And when you do, I wish you luck being skeptical of the most obvious sign being thrown in your face.

I always look for the simplest answer, but the simplest answer for what happened to me was seeing the future.. I can't write it off as an exact replica in my vision of what happened two days later. Or I could write it off as insanity, but I don't have a mental disorder.

While your example of the tree is quite true, I don't see the similarities of simple human patterns and a replica of a car accident. While seeing eyes could be an ingrained pattern seeking that allowed us to survive in a much more violent, wild world of times past.. I highly doubt their was much car pattern seeking, and my seeing of this vision is far different than being awake and walking through the forest and noticing something. My eyes were closed in complete darkness and I was assaulted with this vision.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

It makes sense because we do look for patterns and similarities. Familiarity.


I don't see how science has ever contradicted psychic visions.

I don't expect you to just believe that this happens, especially without experiencing it. And when you do, I wish you luck being skeptical of the most obvious sign being thrown in your face.

I always look for the simplest answer, but the simplest answer for what happened to me was seeing the future.. I can't write it off as an exact replica in my vision of what happened two days later. Or I could write it off as insanity, but I don't have a mental disorder.

While your example of the tree is quite true, I don't see the similarities of simple human patterns and a replica of a car accident.

Well, whilst we may not agree on all points. I do hope that we both find more answers in our lives. To be cheesy and quote the Matrix "it's the question that drives us"
Whatever the truth is, i think we can all have a hell of a lot of fun, sharing and exploring together... even if it means the odd heated debate.
Lets all try to remember that it's not about convincing each other of our own personal world views.. i think that is probably impossible... it's just about sharing our own unique perspectives, and in sharing that information with each other, we arm ourselves and our fellow humans with more knowledge to face the future... and hopefully, in the long run, we will all move closer to a unified view of the universe.

Until then, life and its mystery a great ride to share

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Well, whilst we may not agree on all points. I do hope that we both find more answers in our lives. To be cheesy and quote the Matrix "it's the question that drives us"
Whatever the truth is, i think we can all have a hell of a lot of fun, sharing and exploring together... even if it means the odd heated debate.
Lets all try to remember that it's not about convincing each other of our own personal world views.. i think that is probably impossible... it's just about sharing our own unique perspectives, and in sharing that information with each other, we arm ourselves and our fellow humans with more knowledge to face the future... and hopefully, in the long run, we will all move closer to a unified view of the universe.

Until then, life and its mystery a great ride to share

Certainly I hope a day comes where science proves it to the world, than I wonder how the world would react.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Certainly I hope a day comes where science proves it to the world, than I wonder how the world would react.

Here's a difficult question, and don't feel you have to answer...
But what if science never proves it real, would you be willing to accept that you were wrong? (not saying you are... just as a mental exercise)
And how would you reevaluate your world view and past experiences?

For me if science were to prove such things real (and hence prove me wrong)
then I would be signing up immediatly to a degree in paranormal science... I'd want to learn it all. Imagine the possibilites. Unfortunatly, I don't think such a day will come... which is a huge shame.... but fingers crossed that i'm wrong about that.

I think spaceexplorer has already said some good points that I would likely have brought up, so I'll just point at crucial things that urked me or to clarify.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

No, I think followers of scientists are blind followers.(The ones not really studying and believing what they hear on TV.) I'm not questioning the process, never was. But some of the greatest inventions of our time were done by men who were also spiritual or listened to their intuition far more than a lot of the current people do.

This is a bit digressive, but, I am fully agreed that there are blind followers of everything. Thus, using this as a point to denigrate an institution is like pointing at the very flaws of human kind itself - irrelevant and pre-conditioned. I think you just wanted to make sure I do not think that anyone who believes in science is right.. which I obviously do not think as any moron can claim a "scientific fact" (and happens a lot).

Than that is just ignorance. Psychic ability talk is far more wide spread than the Spaghetti monster or any other "crazy" idea. Everything unprovable is not necessarily on the same level of crazy. It's just peoples skewed perception and nothing else.

You may call it ignorance, but to anyone else, your powers are just as crazy for the simple fact that you have no means to reproduce it any different than any other.

Yes I don't doubt their are cases of that. But when a large percentage of the population expresses very similar stories and cases, something is probably going on. Either its one mass delusion or something is happening. This "delusion" has survived from before the Egyptians till modern day, magick and shamanism have been done on every corner of the world before the modern day commerce and ability to travel the world. It's the worlds largest propagated, "mass delusion" that has no obvious connections between all the worlds cultures.

This is by no means a reason I would jump on, literally, the band wagon. Ad populum is never a good reason to back something up. For hundreds of years, people thought that the sun was a God - does that mean they were right? No, of course not. So claiming it's ability to survive does not mean it is right. Otherwise, nearly every religion is "right" based on that argument. I think you are more inclined to say that they are all misguided by the same spiritual inspiration.

...actually, maybe I would expect really to say that.

I don't feel special, I actually view our race as very infantile and sadistic. I have very little respect for what my brethren have done throughout the years. I view our race as nothing but another part of the Animal kingdom that has happened to taken over the world and made it our own. All the while disrespecting nature and displacing it. I also view the potential for a far more civil and technologically advanced civilization existing in a part of the expanding universe that has had double the time to evolve that we have. I far from view myself or our race as special.

Of course, do not think that I think otherwise. My point is that everyone thinks, at one time, that their consciousness is the most powerful and awe inspiring thing. The younger you are and believe you have powers, the more likely you are in a norm of this. Like I said, it's just a consequence of having a consciousness.

Want a correlation? The moment a child begins to lie and realize that others cannot hear their own thoughts is the perfect time to start telling them of psychic powers or religion.

Yes I understand how investigations for murder work, though murder shows are very much dramatic.... You are a philosopher type, so you should have no problem imagining very specific conditions. No evidence, no location, no eyewitnesses. It's impossible to reproduce if nothing can be found. If someone has seizures and while being studied they don't have one doesn't that make it any less real? Science works by waiting or making something happen, if it is uncontrollable and sporadic and some scientists isn't their to witness it what can be done..

Now you're prepositioning a "thought experiment" into a fallacy. Let's just drop that one.

That is nothing but your opinion and your own form of confirmation bias.

This one really bugged me.

You think I am unconsciously looking for reinforcement that I am right because you said you cannot prove or utilize your powers because they "come and go"?!

I am sorry, but this really urked me here. Why am I being a hypocrite because you excuse responsibility of your abilities?

I'm sure it does, because you only look at the evolution of our technology and forget how we once survived.
Everyone has is not true. I don't see how psychic experiences are a consequence of having a consciousness, unless your trying to prove my point. An ironic way you worded yourself.

Everyone really has. The moment you start realizing your sense of self and your ability to lie is the psychological spawning grounds. You can see it in developing youth via longitudinal studies.

...do you want evidence? I can actually produce it for this one. The fact is, you realize how powerful and unique your consciousness is from other people. This is what I really mean everyone does. However, it is literally the very first step to psychic abilities. This is because of the strong correlation with "wow, my mind is unique and exclusive from others...... look at that, when I think X then Y happens! I must.. I must be psychic".

I know you do not think you are the only psychic in the world.. but do not seriously think that there are only a select few people that have thought about having psychic abilities at all.

So could any form of trying anything than? Are we to live in a box of is this really happening from day to day? Now you are trying to say an attempt to use psychic powers would only be confirmation bias, than how am I to consciously attempt it?

Ohh, no no, that is not what I mean. Let me elaborate a little.

Firstly, "comes and goes" excuses your power over it and makes it an external 'gift' of sorts that you cannot control. However, then you say it may work if you concentrate on something important about yourself.

How about just this:

Demonstrate a psychic ability to us. Concentrate on something about yourself.. PM your prediction to a trusted third party.. then wait for the even to happen. Specific details required (names, adjectives, etc.) and not vagaries (ie. "someone will argue with me").

No..?

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

You may call it ignorance, but to anyone else, your powers are just as crazy for the simple fact that you have no means to reproduce it any different than any other.

Than a person who has seizures and has no control is just as crazy.

This is by no means a reason I would jump on, literally, the band wagon. Ad populum is never a good reason to back something up. For hundreds of years, people thought that the sun was a God - does that mean they were right? No, of course not. So claiming it's ability to survive does not mean it is right. Otherwise, nearly every religion is "right" based on that argument. I think you are more inclined to say that they are all misguided by the same spiritual inspiration.

People think a lot of things, but when the future is shown to you right before your eyes.... People worshiped the sun as a God because it really is a God... It's got more power than the invisible man Christians are searching for, it really does give us our LIFE.

Of course that is not a reason to make something true or fact, but when a large percentage of the world to this day believe and experience it... something is going on. Delusional or otherwise. People don't really talk to this god, they just assume the dogma they learn from their pastors and bibles...

...actually, maybe I would expect really to say that.

Of course, do not think that I think otherwise. My point is that everyone thinks, at one time, that their consciousness is the most powerful and awe inspiring thing. The younger you are and believe you have powers, the more likely you are in a norm of this. Like I said, it's just a consequence of having a consciousness.

That is not true. And saying it doesn't make it true. I don't know how or why you are assuming this...

Want a correlation? The moment a child begins to lie and realize that others cannot hear their own thoughts is the perfect time to start telling them of psychic powers or religion.

Makes no sense. It's the perfect time to indoctrinate children, when they are young.... What is your point? No one told me about psychic powers, my family is Christian I am not. My mom goes to church my father does not.. none of them talk about psychics ever? Your point?

Onus stop assuming you know why people believe in Psychic powers, like I said you have your own form of confirmation bias going on.. It can't be real, it's got to be an incorrect belief inherited from parents right?

This one really bugged me.

You think I am unconsciously looking for reinforcement that I am right because you said you cannot prove or utilize your powers because they "come and go"?!

I am sorry, but this really urked me here. Why am I being a hypocrite because you excuse responsibility of your abilities?

You seem to think you know WHY people believe or have experienced Psychic powers when you have no basis to go on.

Like I said seizures come and go, it doesn't make them any less real.

Everyone really has. The moment you start realizing your sense of self and your ability to lie is the psychological spawning grounds. You can see it in developing youth via longitudinal studies.

We start realizing our ability to function in the world it doesn't necessarily involve the Psychic unless we are actually inherently Psychic.

...do you want evidence? I can actually produce it for this one. The fact is, you realize how powerful and unique your consciousness is from other people. This is what I really mean everyone does. However, it is literally the very first step to psychic abilities. This is because of the strong correlation with "wow, my mind is unique and exclusive from others...... look at that, when I think X then Y happens! I must.. I must be psychic".

That is not evidence. It was a bad formula. Just because you realize you are powerful and unique doesn't mean you come to the conclusion I must by psychic... You are really pushing it.

I know you do not think you are the only psychic in the world.. but do not seriously think that there are only a select few people that have thought about having psychic abilities at all.

I didn't think about it, I GOT HIT WITH IT. What don't you understand, I had no interest in this I was taking a bath and got the most detailed view of an accident that happened two days later... I don't think it's a select few, I think the whole world would be capable if they weren't so blinded by their "logic". You keep trying to get inside my head, but you are so off base.

Firstly, "comes and goes" excuses your power over it and makes it an external 'gift' of sorts that you cannot control. However, then you say it may work if you concentrate on something important about yourself.

Because really I have no idea why or how it works. It just does. Kind of like a seizure. Albeit that gift isn't so helpful.

Demonstrate a psychic ability to us. Concentrate on something about yourself.. PM your prediction to a trusted third party.. then wait for the even to happen. Specific details required (names, adjectives, etc.) and not vagaries (ie. "someone will argue with me").

My visions are always silent, their is no volume.. I see faces or events.
If I happen to see a post before it comes I'll let you know, but as I said important events seem to be more often.. and honestly this is the internet.


Obviously I wouldn't keep it vague.. Specific detailed scenarios or events.

Just before it gets lost, am curious as to your answer to my question DeathCell,

"if science never proves it real, would you be willing to accept that you were wrong? (not saying you are... just as a mental exercise)
And how would you reevaluate your world view and past experiences?"

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Just before it gets lost, am curious as to your answer to my question DeathCell,

"if science never proves it real, would you be willing to accept that you were wrong? (not saying you are... just as a mental exercise)
And how would you reevaluate your world view and past experiences?"

It can't really be answered.

Never is a long time, and I won't be here in this body for that long.

I'm not sure how I'd reevaluate my past experiences, I'm either insane or I saw the future.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Just before it gets lost, am curious as to your answer to my question DeathCell,

"if science never proves it real, would you be willing to accept that you were wrong? (not saying you are... just as a mental exercise)
And how would you reevaluate your world view and past experiences?"

Okay I know this question wasn't really for me but I just can't help it but to bud in on it. First I have to agree with deathcell, that never iks a very long time b ut when you say never, I assume that you mean throughout the rest of his lifetime. (which would be never seen from his perspective)

BUT ....he believes in it now....with the lack of scientific evidence to back it up. Which means that on his part, its a matter of faith. (Faith = believing in something that cannot be proven) so what you are really asking him is this (as I see it):

"If Science never (already having defined what the word never covers in this case) proves it real, would you loose or let go of your personal faith in the matter? "

Isn't that what you are really asking him?

..Sorry I bud in....just couldn't help myself

I found a source for this:
http://www.hrvg.org/discussion/archi....php/t-61.html

The work was published in a journal. Their methods may or may not, have been flawed, but there is no need for all the insulting of people who are optimistic about the findings here. Like ANY OTHER research, it needs to be examined and replicated to discover whether there is any meaningful data here. Why all the frothing over something like this? If you feel strongly one way or another, I challenge you to find another source of research like this that actually supports your position! Discussion of paranormal research can and should be - civil.

Hi Lily......I'm sorry if you've felt anyone has insulted anyone else in here which I'm quite sure was never intented as such. We simply just "share" our thoughts, opinions and beliefs ...and maybe sometimes we express them a little strongly. But really, thats all there is to it :-)

Originally Posted by DeathCell

I'm not sure how I'd reevaluate my past experiences, I'm either insane or I saw the future.

I'm just going to conclude it with my honest opinion that I believe you are delusional.

On the same basis - you cannot prove me wrong. Thus, an impasse.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

I'm just going to conclude it with my honest opinion that I believe you are delusional.

On the same basis - you cannot prove me wrong. Thus, an impasse.

~

Agreed.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I'm just going to conclude it with my honest opinion that I believe you are delusional.

On the same basis - you cannot prove me wrong. Thus, an impasse.

~

Of course, it's easy to "diagnose" those who we have no connection. And those whose psychological makeup we have no understanding of. Really it's very easy to assume that someone is crazy when you know nothing about the person, the situation or all of reality.

I of course diagnose O'nus and spaceexplorer as delusional as well, unable to notice the obvious while subtlest secrets of life.

Someday perhaps your delusion will crack and you will see that what you think of as delusion is nothing but reality.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Of course, it's easy to "diagnose" those who we have no connection. And those whose psychological makeup we have no understanding of. Really it's very easy to assume that someone is crazy when you know nothing about the person, the situation or all of reality.

I of course diagnose O'nus and spaceexplorer as delusional as well, unable to notice the obvious while subtlest secrets of life.

Someday perhaps your delusion will crack and you will see that what you think of as delusion is nothing but reality.

Explain to us then, why your claims of psychic powers are more valid than those of the many thousands of people in mental institutions across the world?