Thread: The Turn it upside down debate No.1 - ASTRAL TRAVEL AND OBEs - Skeptics and Believers swap roles.

Originally Posted by Walms

Yeah I agree with DreamQueen, just have a little fun, the thread is supposed to show how believers and skeptics move in the other side of the fence, right? Give a good example! So far I'm only skeptic on it...

@Arutad: Of course that if I can't do it, it doesn't mean it is impossible, however why is it that nobody who can do it shows it to the world? I mean, we have internet to play with, which solves the problem of meeting them IRL and that way the government doesn't lay their hands on someone and makes them a lab rat (if that is the fear), so why not do it? Or is it they just don't trust people? Kind of convenient whenever asked for proof, even if it's just for personal proof.

All i have seen is them say "it happened to me so it is real", hows it fun when they completly ruin it with that type of non sense. I've yet to see someone here in a long time say "They are real because i expierienced one", they are just making fun and generalizing the others who don't say that.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Deathcell, can you please either stop trying to derail this thread, or just smegging read what this thread is about and take part. I am not going to get into this argument with you. The point of this thread is about having a bit of fun, so please, if you want to get into meaningless arguments just take a hike.

I'm aware you like to always argue with me, but it's getting really tiresome.

As if you don't reply to all my posts. You made some claims I am interested in how you consider yourself spiritual and what about you is. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to clutter this thread.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

All i have seen is them say "it happened to me so it is real", hows it fun when they completly ruin it with that type of non sense. I've yet to see someone here in a long time say "They are real because i expierienced one", they are just making fun and generalizing the others who don't say that.

Oh indeed, so why not ignore the ones who generalize and just take into account the ones who actually try? It still shows how they behave in the other side. Also, you are generalizing right there too, I think Arutads reply was pretty good.

Originally Posted by Walms

Oh indeed, so why not ignore the ones who generalize and just take into account the ones who actually try? It still shows how they behave in the other side. Also, you are generalizing right there too, I think Arutads reply was pretty good.

True, i should have said "some", not "they", and the line "It happened to me so it is real" was from DreamQueen, but my point was pretty brutal. But there was a few people with different lines, but almost the same type of saying.

In the spirit of the game:

I had this fantastic OBE once, where out of the blue. I felt this buzz of mystical power across my body, and felt myself lifting up and out of it.

I was hovering in the astral plane, a dark void watching an incredible light show - maybe the souls of other dreamers.

I then got a bit nervous and wanted to be elsewhere. I thought about being on the beach when suddenly I found myself transported to the same place. No doubt my psychic abilities helped me navigate through this realm.

The beach reminded me of places I had previously visited, but it was clearly a spiritual realm. The crabs wore little red hats and beautiful mermaids beckoned me into the sea begging for love.

It was a transcendental magic experience, and I must be a very special and talented astral traveller to have been able to experience it.

My friend has recommended a book about Lucid Dreaming by a researcher called Stephen laberge. Not sure I'll bother though.
Theres some guru called castanada who knows all about the dreaming world.
He sounds exactly the kind of guy a gifted and special psychic like myself could get along with.

Originally Posted by Walms

@Arutad: Of course that if I can't do it, it doesn't mean it is impossible, however why is it that nobody who can do it shows it to the world? I mean, we have internet to play with, which solves the problem of meeting them IRL and that way the government doesn't lay their hands on someone and makes them a lab rat (if that is the fear), so why not do it? Or is it they just don't trust people? Kind of convenient whenever asked for proof, even if it's just for personal proof.

The reason why nobody shows it is rarity of such talent and how difficult it is to use it. Most probably managed to achieve something a couple of times, but those who can do it regularly are maybe a dozen of people or so in the world. I'm speculating, but if it's something so difficult, then it can be true.

@moonshine, you didn't do your homework, did you? AP is the one in the Astral plane, buzzing feeling is called SP and it doesn't happen suddenly, and how did you see the souls of other dreamers if you were having an OBE? Bad, bad moonshine. (Also, come on, you can make a better job than that)

@Arutad, So, if it is that hard to accomplish, wouldn't that make it meaningless for me to try? First, I don't have the necessary vie to approach it if it will take me some years, then I may as well think it was coincidence and have to wait some other years to confirm, and that is if I'm lucky/talented.

And kind hard to believe if the dozen or so people can do it, they don't show it to the world... we get to a wall there, they either show it or make it remain as fake until anyone who can do it dies and then goes... well, non-existant <.<

Originally Posted by Walms

@moonshine, you didn't do your homework, did you? AP is the one in the Astral plane, buzzing feeling is called SP and it doesn't happen suddenly, and how did you see the souls of other dreamers if you were having an OBE? Bad, bad moonshine. (Also, come on, you can make a better job than that)

Pah. You are so close-minded. Just come on here to pick a fight with me.
Boo to the haterz.

I prefer to evidence of my own experience. Why would I bother with science and logic when its all so corrupt. The lizard men may control the world, but they don't control my dreamspace.

Originally Posted by Walms

@Arutad, So, if it is that hard to accomplish, wouldn't that make it meaningless for me to try? First, I don't have the necessary vie to approach it if it will take me some years, then I may as well think it was coincidence and have to wait some other years to confirm, and that is if I'm lucky/talented.

That's exactly what I said in a post before the previous one. Glad to see that we're already agreeing.

And kind hard to believe if the dozen or so people can do it, they don't show it to the world... we get to a wall there, they either show it or make it remain as fake until anyone who can do it dies and then goes... well, non-existant <.<

I didn't talk to them, so I don't know what they think. Maybe they pass on their knowledge, or maybe nobody at all can do it regularly.

That still doesn't disprove the possibility of an OOBE in any way.

I think this thread really shows the cynicism in some members, and their lack of open-mindedness.
I'm not surprised that some of the great skeptics of BD are unable to give an 'argument' that isn't drenched in satire.

This isn't fair. You chose a side and ignore the other. What you said pictures believers who posted here just to openly refuse to participate as even more narrow-minded, but you choose to ignore that and speak only about the other side.

Judging by how you were closing topics, I begin to have suspicions that you're doing it on purpose, to make this one seem like another "bad" topic that needs to be closed eventually.

Hmmm. I consider my contribution to be more Ironic than cynical. There is a point to both.

Arutad, despite offering a pretty one sided opinion on this occasion, I would hope that Cloud isn't that openly biased. Although he/she recently closed a thread I was involved in, it was dead anyway.

But thats an interesting point. It would be all too easy to sabotage threads with pointless flaming and so cause a Mod to react.

Cloud, whats the mod policy. If only one person is being a mental does the thread get closed, or does it have to be a back and forth bickering?

Originally Posted by moonshine

Pah. You are so close-minded. Just come on here to pick a fight with me.
Boo to the haterz.

I prefer to evidence of my own experience. Why would I bother with science and logic when its all so corrupt. The lizard men may control the world, but they don't control my dreamspace.

So you can't do better I see, how am I being close minded when I'm just pointing things any believer would point out to be wrong? You must be either crazy or don't want to play <.<

Originally Posted by Arutad

I didn't talk to them, so I don't know what they think. Maybe they pass on their knowledge, or maybe nobody at all can do it regularly.

That still doesn't disprove the possibility of an OOBE in any way.

Oh I didn't say that disproves it, just makes it unable to be proven/experienced and thus, useless to debate/try/care about. Unless you see it from a history perspective, of course.

Oh and yes, I find the lack of believers playing skeptic just as bad as the skeptics playing horribly the believer (only if they post though), are both sides afraid of proving themselves wrong?

Originally Posted by ClouD

I think this thread really shows the cynicism in some members, and their lack of open-mindedness.
I'm not surprised that some of the great skeptics of BD are unable to give an 'argument' that isn't drenched in satire.

Pretend for a second you were a skeptic pretending to be a believer. What would you say?

Originally Posted by Arutad

This isn't fair. You chose a side and ignore the other. What you said pictures believers who posted here just to openly refuse to participate as even more narrow-minded, but you choose to ignore that and speak only about the other side.

Judging by how you were closing topics, I begin to have suspicions that you're doing it on purpose, to make this one seem like another "bad" topic that needs to be closed eventually.

That sounds more like an accusation than a suspicion, and I resent that very much.

I have an opinion, it was a passing comment to rile up maybe some decent replies that I could read, I guess you found it offensive somehow. If a normal member said that, it would not be so *shocking*, but since I'm a moderator I'm supposed to be there solely to serve, right?

Personally, I do not like the whole satirical blatant circular reasoning, when people are fully capable to give a better effort than that in such an interesting thread.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Hmmm. I consider my contribution to be more Ironic than cynical. There is a point to both.

Arutad, despite offering a pretty one sided opinion on this occasion, I would hope that Cloud isn't that openly biased. Although he/she recently closed a thread I was involved in, it was dead anyway.

But thats an interesting point. It would be all too easy to sabotage threads with pointless flaming and so cause a Mod to react.

Cloud, whats the mod policy. If only one person is being a mental does the thread get closed, or does it have to be a back and forth bickering?

It's an insulting point, and it's my prerogative to close a derailed thread becoming steadily stupid and childish, occupied mostly by a personal discussion that ventured to the edge of off-topic with only a string attached to the OP, if anyone could find it.

Moonshine, you know how things work around here, detailed clarification would only serve to your workaround, especially on something so stupid.

As for the deleted posts/opinions, it's the same old not good enough attitude. I do not care what you would have done, I did consider other options but chose to do what I did.

Originally Posted by Mark75

Pretend for a second you were a skeptic pretending to be a believer. What would you say?

Funny.

It's difficult to keep a thread on topic when people so creatively intertwine moderating so they can complain.
Let's try our best.

Originally Posted by Walms

Oh I didn't say that disproves it, just makes it unable to be proven/experienced and thus, useless to debate/try/care about. Unless you see it from a history perspective, of course.

That's what I was saying to you before... We again agreed For you it's surely useless to debate these things, and honestly I've been asking myself why you even bother and had no idea why.

While I have never had an OBE myself, I have had two DILDs. The tibetan buddhists believe that lucid dreaming is a training ground for the subtle bodies and that the subtle bodies can leave the coarse body. Given the fact that they have one of the most deeply developed non scientific theories of the mind and that they are capable of performing mircacles (e.g. wrapping themselves in wet sheets, going out into the Tibetan winter and steaming them dry) I have little choice but to accept that they know what they are talking about and that modern science will one day catch up just has it has with the the five skandhas or steps in the perception of coarse/physical events.

And need I remind you that non-locality is a central feature of the fabric of reality and makes non-local conciousness possible if not indeed plausible?

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

While I have never had an OBE myself, I have had two DILDs. The tibetan buddhists believe that lucid dreaming is a training ground for the subtle bodies and that the subtle bodies can leave the coarse body. Given the fact that they have one of the most deeply developed non scientific theories of the mind and that they are capable of performing mircacles (e.g. wrapping themselves in wet sheets, going out into the Tibetan winter and steaming them dry) I have little choice but to accept that they know what they are talking about and that modern science will one day catch up just has it has with the the five skandhas or steps in the perception of coarse/physical events.

Humans can both increase and decrease their metabolisms through meditation. A physiological issue.

But not evidence for the astral plane.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

And need I remind you that non-locality is a central feature of the fabric of reality and makes non-local conciousness possible if not indeed plausible?

Oh well in that case...

Am I to take from the title of this thread and your reply that you believe in AP? I didn't think so. Let's play the game. It's fun.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Humans can both increase and decrease their metabolisms through meditation. A physiological issue.

But not evidence for the astral plane.

It is not evidence of the astral plane. It is evidence of their deep understanding of human physiology. This is therefore an argument by eminent authority. If the same people that understood physical perception and using the mind to manipulate the body while western science was dismissing meditation as a waste of time believe that astral projection is possible, is it not equally likely that they are right about that?

As for bringing quantum physics into the picture, I agree that by itself, it would be a waste of time but in light of the Tibetan lamas supporting AP, It does give their claim a little more weight, does it not?

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Am I to take from the title of this thread and your reply that you believe in AP? I didn't think so. Let's play the game. It's fun.

Oh yeah. I forgot. Here goes...

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

It is not evidence of the astral plane. It is evidence of their deep understanding of human physiology. This is therefore an argument by eminent authority. If the same people that understood physical perception and using the mind to manipulate the body while western science was dismissing meditation as a waste of time believe that astral projection is possible, is it not equally likely that they are right about that?

Of course. That makes so much sense.
I mean, if they're right about one thing they must be right about all of it.
Just because buddhism is a religion, doesn't mean that they might have religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Of course. That makes so much sense.
I mean, if they're right about one thing they must be right about all of it.
Just because buddhism is a religion, doesn't mean that they might have religious beliefs.

Oh snap. Looks like we've got some sectarian violence on our hands. I have to disagree with your characterization of argument by eminent authority as "they got one thing right so they must be right about everything." I provided two unrelated cases that they got right. More could be provided. They seem to know what they're talking about.

Second, I disagree with your characerization of buddhism as being exclusively a religion. It contains a secular philosophy of mind that is independent of any belief in reincarnation. The same could not be said of, for instance, the judeo-christian-islamic faith. Sorting out the religion from the philosophy is going to be a long but fruitful task that has the full blessing of the dalai lama. How's that for a 'religious' leader? For the sake of the skeptics, I will point out that given the fact that steam drying wet cotton in the himalayas with ones own body heat would have been dismissed as being on the religious side of the divide by science at some point, who knows what side the stuff relating to subtle bodies lies on?

I know that we are on the same side. I'm just saying that the skeptics will take you much more seriously if you can provide an educated front. Aren't you sick of getting sarcastically dismissed by a bunch of snide know-it-alls?

Originally Posted by Arutad

That's what I was saying to you before... We again agreed For you it's surely useless to debate these things, and honestly I've been asking myself why you even bother and had no idea why.

Not useless, but useless to try to prove it in the case it is that hard that it will require years of practice and get still no results that point to it being true.
And it is pretty simple, if someone with the ability happens to show and I'm there to debate and it happens they can prove it to me, why not then make experiments to prove it to the world? It is just a matter of gathering info about it, too bad you don't know of anyone who can do it. "takes out spying stuff, just in case"

Originally Posted by Walms

Not useless, but useless to try to prove it in the case it is that hard that it will require years of practice and get still no results that point to it being true.

Risk is noble, risking the irreplacable time of your life is even more noble. If you're truly interested in something, it's worth it.

And it is pretty simple, if someone with the ability happens to show and I'm there to debate and it happens they can prove it to me, why not then make experiments to prove it to the world?

I can think of one reason, even if it's going to sound boringly overused. It's the fact that once scientists lay hands on your talents, you're never getting away from the public eye. Not that it sounds necessarily bad, you could be a kind of a superstar. But it's very hard to predict the situation. Too many institutions would want to discover more about you to use it for their own purposes, and some of them are competing.

If it's a group of people, then presenting their case would be much easier. But a lone person would hardly want to get involved, unless he decides that there's some considerable profit (not necessarily money) to be had. I'd even say that only a talented individual with a skeptic mindset would eagerly present his case to science, if alone. Other loners would be likely inclined to use it to earn money via different venues, by putting up their phone number and offering help, like a lot of psychics do nowadays.

It is just a matter of gathering info about it, too bad you don't know of anyone who can do it. "takes out spying stuff, just in case"

Well I do. Able, but not consistently enough to make "real scientific" experiments. The rate of failure is too high.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Second, I disagree with your characerization of buddhism as being exclusively a religion. It contains a secular philosophy of mind that is independent of any belief in reincarnation. The same could not be said of, for instance, the judeo-christian-islamic faith. Sorting out the religion from the philosophy is going to be a long but fruitful task that has the full blessing of the dalai lama.

Neutral mode on:

Buddhism doesn't contain a philosophy of mind independent from reincarnation. Without nidanas a chain of causation can't be explained, and without a chain of causation there can be no emptiness.