Thread: Dream Battle Tutorial

1) 1st and statement will not work in mutual dreaming if other person is master his concentration and if he don’t even try to focus on his surround on he only focus on you he have other archetype than you so if you want to make him loose you, you have to use his opposite archetype. But almost all of people have main these four archetypes very similar so that’s why it works.
I have a dream where I talked with a girl but I suddenly began to loose my focus and began to waking up, but I managed to hold at black out. Then my mind state was like a something trance I didn’t know I’m waked up or not. So I pleased the girl: -“if you hear me, take my hand” and to my amazement she took my hand I felt that, then my mind was trying to create the view but I tried to resist and it worked, because in that way it’s almost the easies way to communicate, and you will newer loose your focus on surrounding. That was because I believed, that all what I need to find her jus to feel her hand in mine. So as I said there is no rule how to rule your dream all stereotypes can be broken if you create your own stereotypes. Btw you say you need to be focus on something if you want that exist, one part it’s true, but this is one of your archetype how you understand world . And one of the most interesting things that I made up new archetypes that I don’t even needs the interface to communicate. This is not so hard to modify.

2) The 2nd will not work in mutual dreaming also, because this is our archetype. There is no strict rule how can everything have to work. I have such dreams when I don’t even need to take focus on something to create more details, if I will create a new archetype for me. I have had such dreams, where I just come in a dream and everything around me comes really clear, if I look to unclear human figure it’s immediately comes into full detail. So I modified my archetype. This is not so hard to modify.

3) Emotions and feeling expression archetype is that we create when we just born and we are modifying it all our life. Some of us feel good and bad, but if person have gone something wrong in childhood, his archetype can be really different from others peoples. So as I said, create your own archetype and you will have that control of your life, and dreams that you want. Change this Archetype is extremely hard and if you do mistake you can go mad.




4) This is really another Archetype.
Archetypes are not strict, because we can change then any time. Anything we see or experience is changing our Archetypes. There are two phases in our brain:
* Create new Archetype
* Modify existing Archetype
There is no strict in our mind. If your Archetype is strong, this only means that he never failed you and your brain just resist to changes.

When we find the access to main control we can easy change this and then will never be any fear, and social problems. I hope this will be revealed soon  .
This simply leads to nowhere. The more abstract you talk the more it’s closer to true, but more unclear. The same as we say: -“Everything is nothing and nothing is everything”. I think your way is good you are trying to explain the dreams, but if you close the door for opportunities they never come, but wait there is another one Archetype.

All I wanted to say if you change Archetype of yours you will change all control of you. Sometimes it’s easier to create new an Archetype sometimes is easier to modify, choose what it’s easier for you. Our limits don’t have to be a limit for other peoples.

Those rules still apply to shared dreams. Remember that each dreamer in a shared experiences their own unique dream, so both participants don't necessarily experience the same thing. If our archetypes are not the same, then it's impossible for us experience the same thing

Originally Posted by Dovanele

Btw you say you need to be focus on something if you want that exist, one part it’s true, but this is one of your archetype how you understand world . And one of the most interesting things that I made up new archetypes that I don’t even needs the interface to communicate. This is not so hard to modify.

No, that's not my personal archetype, that's working at the archetypal level. It holds true for every dream I've ever had or ever read.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

2) The 2nd will not work in mutual dreaming also, because this is our archetype. There is no strict rule how can everything have to work. I have such dreams when I don’t even need to take focus on something to create more details, if I will create a new archetype for me. I have had such dreams, where I just come in a dream and everything around me comes really clear, if I look to unclear human figure it’s immediately comes into full detail. So I modified my archetype. This is not so hard to modify.

You didn't modify anything, you just used various archetypes.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

3) Emotions and feeling expression archetype is that we create when we just born and we are modifying it all our life. Some of us feel good and bad, but if person have gone something wrong in childhood, his archetype can be really different from others peoples. So as I said, create your own archetype and you will have that control of your life, and dreams that you want. Change this Archetype is extremely hard and if you do mistake you can go mad.

Yes, emotions become part of our archetypes. If at your house you get visited in RL by your girlfriend you love and at other times by an uncle you hate, whenever you dream of your house and experience strong love or hate, that will activate the connection between your home and either your lover or hate uncle.

Emotions allow us to fine tune the existing archetypes that are already in play. They also make very strong connections between archetypes, which is what makes them reliable to use.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

4) This is really another Archetype.
Archetypes are not strict, because we can change then any time. Anything we see or experience is changing our Archetypes. There are two phases in our brain:
* Create new Archetype
* Modify existing Archetype
There is no strict in our mind. If your Archetype is strong, this only means that he never failed you and your brain just resist to changes.

When we find the access to main control we can easy change this and then will never be any fear, and social problems. I hope this will be revealed soon  .
This simply leads to nowhere. The more abstract you talk the more it’s closer to true, but more unclear. The same as we say: -“Everything is nothing and nothing is everything”. I think your way is good you are trying to explain the dreams, but if you close the door for opportunities they never come, but wait there is another one Archetype.

All I wanted to say if you change Archetype of yours you will change all control of you. Sometimes it’s easier to create new an Archetype sometimes is easier to modify, choose what it’s easier for you. Our limits don’t have to be a limit for other peoples.

Yes, archetypes are always changing, but some change less than others and remain more stable. It's these stable archetypes that are best to use because they are more reliable with fewer random associations that can manifest.

The way to change them (*Edit: Change the current active archetype to a different one, not modify the current one) is to ignore the current ones and supplant them with a new one, either buy consciously bringing in a new one or follow the associations of the current ones until you arrive at something useful.


Clearly, we're going to have to dream battle so I can show you first hand.

I think we have to update the whole system how to define who win in a dream battle. The win goes for those who:
1) Have good emotion control archetype
2) Have very abstract and flexible archetypes of other types of dream control.
3) Can improvise in archetypes creation during a dream.
3) Have most of practice in all this.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Those rules still apply to shared dreams. Remember that each dreamer in a shared experiences their own unique dream, so both participants don't necessarily experience the same thing. If our archetypes are not the same, then it's impossible for us experience the same thing.

No, that's not my personal archetype, that's working at the archetypal level. It holds true for every dream I've ever had or ever read.

I agree with that totally and that’s why your personal archetype simply just won’t work on some of people. But you forgot that rules are archetype that can be changed, but there can be a problem, because some of them it’s so deep inside us so we call them as nature, and this can be so hard to do maybe the whole life can’t be enough.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

You didn't modify anything, you just used various archetypes.

Yes, you are corrected me at this point.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Yes, archetypes are always changing, but some change less than others and remain more stable. It's these stable archetypes that are best to use because they are more reliable with fewer random associations that can manifest.

I agree with that totally. But there is another problem if your opponent uses his new really good archetype that can make you doubt your archetypes then your whole system will brake up and you will loose. I think need to be prepared for such situation and create very abstract archetype that can cover such situations, if you don’t have such then you might be fail.

Now I’ don’t have good archetype of emotion control so there is left much work to do

P.S. these archetypes gave me a nice idea how the whole universe evolved form nothing into all this what we see now. I will try to write it ass soon as i will write it down.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

I agree with that totally and that’s why your personal archetype simply just won’t work on some of people.

I agree with you totally too. The thing is, you don't use your archetypes against another dreamer in a shared dream, you use their own archetypes against them.

This is the most important part. There is nothing you can do to them, you can only trick them into "harming" themselves.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

But you forgot that rules are archetype that can be changed, but there can be a problem, because some of them it’s so deep inside us so we call them as nature, and this can be so hard to do maybe the whole life can’t be enough.

You're right again, archetypes do change. It's the Uncertainty principle. The more precisely you use an archetype the more you change it. But like you said, some archetypes are so massive any changes you make are like pissing in the ocean. It doesn't make much difference.

Archetypes can't be created instantly. They take time to develop, so you can't just create one on the fly in a dream. You can create them from scratch on purpose, but that takes planning and work and time.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

I agree with that totally. But there is another problem if your opponent uses his new really good archetype that can make you doubt your archetypes then your whole system will brake up and you will loose. I think need to be prepared for such situation and create very abstract archetype that can cover such situations, if you don’t have such then you might be fail.

Using only one good archetype really only works in a Nightstalker scenario where the victim really doesn't know what's going on.

When two people who know what they're doing go at it, you end up changing archetypes with every breath. You have to be quick, adaptive, and creative.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

Now I’ don’t have good archetype of emotion control so there is left much work to do.

Sure you do. You just need to control your emotions and not let them control you. The emotional archetypes are obvious. Get angry in a dream, and the DCs become angry and violent. The only thing you need to work on is using the right emotions in the right situations.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

I think we have to update the whole system how to define who win in a dream battle. The win goes for those who:
1) Have good emotion control archetype
2) Have very abstract and flexible archetypes of other types of dream control.
3) Can improvise in archetypes creation during a dream.
3) Have most of practice in all this.

Those all help in scoring hits, but what you really want to do is trap your opponent's attention like what happens in a tooth dream. A cavity or something catches the attention, and the more you look the more gory detail you find, pulling you in deeper and deeper. You use your opponent's archetypes to overwhelm him and create a prison that they make themselves.

By the way, it's nice to talk to someone who actually gets this!

I got in a fight with Walms last night. He kicked my butt. I don't know if he remembers the dream yet. I am anxiously awaiting his next DJ entry.

There is a colliseum we can go to in The Outer Lands where we can fight without being disturbed by outside entities.

That would be cool if Raven and I could take you guys there. How has your dream recall been?

I would love to watch a dream battle between you two! That would kickass!!!

I’m really creative in a dream. Almost every dream is a new combination of action old moves and always a lot of new moves (in action created moves). I always use some old pattern and then creatively include something new that fit to new situation.
My mind never gives up. I think this comes form our conscious. If you are furry inside you will never give up and you will always find workaround. Everybody does but some of us just do this better. I think this is because of self-confident archetype.

When I was just a child (about 8 years), I discovered that fear can be replaced by others emotions like anger and furry. I think that furry is most important emotions. Then I have had a lot of stress in a school and I think, because of that I have had a lot of “nightmare” type dreams, but the more fear I felt the more I used furry and anger. I always won because my furry+anger+revenge was stronger emotion than fear, so that it is how to defeat the enemy. Sometimes I o my mind create a win archetype . That’s sound’s weird, but this is how really we win in dreams. Other calls this the purpose.

By the way, I noticed that if you are in highest level of lucidity, then there is no limit in emotions scale ant that why we wake up if our emotion raise up too much in our scale. This is helps our mind do not blow in a dreams. I experiencing this phenomena really often now, but I never had something like this in a childhood. Why? I think I know the answer at highest level of lucidity, there is no limit no “debugger” that can catch our errors and the only one way solution is to wake up. We accept here all as very real and everything goes here really fast and we have totally freedom. In lowers levels of lucidity we fell like in slow motion movie. There is a limit on emotion scale and you take it easier. So there is easier to control bad emotions. For example:
I have had a lucid dream where I tested how much emotions influence my dream. I began to fear of something then all began go after me. I did all to increase my fear, but when I tried to calm it was too late. I think if the fear I was felt in a dream will occur in real life I probably jus go mad. I felt such a fear that I thought my mind will explode.
After I began to run there was totally darkness so there was only voice. Then I began to keep running until and then fear comes stronger and stronger, this is because of our fear archetype (You run away that fears you) has strengthen our fear. So there are emotions archetypes that can be strengthen or weaken by other archetypes. Almost all of us have an archetype – face up on your fear and it will disappear. So there need a lot of practice on yourself, because the more you know yourself the more you are stronger.


So there some types of emotion that makes us weaker or stronger.

Emotion that makes us stronger:
*Anger
*Furry
*Stress
*Revenge

Emotion that makes us weaker:
*Fear
*Doubt
*Sadness
*Depression
*Amazement

Neutral emotion:
*Calm
*Comfort

Positive emotion:
*Love
*Compassion
*Thrust


So what does positive emotion do? I think that Neutral emotion is one of weakest but useful in exploring and communicating. Positive emotion also useful in communicating, but is those emotion stronger than other I think rely on individual personality.

I think, would be great if we share our experience in emotion control and exchange such experience.

Interesting. You actually made yourself afraid. I did this while meditating once, as an experiment. I found I could be afraid of whatever I wanted to. Then, I was forced to conclude that I could stop being afraid of whatever I wanted to.

I think the emotion that makes us strongest is joy.

Anger/revenge/fury gives us temporary power, but tears us apart in the long term, and anger is blinding.

Amazement definitely makes us lose focus and lucidity if we allow ourself to be too amazed.

I fought my own totems because I was blinded by rage. Yes, my rage gave me power, but power to fight my allies. I fought a boy who I should've been trying to help, blinded by rage. I had a parasite in my mind that was feeding off of my rage energy. Blech!

Love and compassion gives us clarity of sight. Compassion gave Raven and I the ability to see the boy inside Tooth we wanted to help.

Im curious after you try this what do your "fighting forms" as in what you do/look like when you fight in Ld's

Mines sort of a angel with a black cloak but bright gold wings with bone/burnt skin on one side a holy looking face on the other side (like two face from batman but alot more badass looking)

Originally Posted by Nicky the nodreamer

Im curious after you try this what do your "fighting forms" as in what you do/look like when you fight in Ld's

Mines sort of a angel with a black cloak but bright gold wings with bone/burnt skin on one side a holy looking face on the other side (like two face from batman but alot more badass looking)

I can picture it in my mind. That is badass.

The great god Pan, The Minotaur, Kamapua'a (The Hawaiian demigod, the boar-man), a desert nomad dressed in all white wielding a scimitar, Otherme (me with red spikes coming out of me wearing jeans, shirtless and barefoot), a rubber ball, a great tree, a mountain, a volcano, a water elemental

I have created good moving archetype. I think almost everyone of us had dreams where something is obstructing our way or didn't let us go where we wanted. I think this is one of most annoying thing in our dreams, because we waste our precious lucid time fighting with our own demons. Now some of people will say: - “This is because they distract you from your purpose and then they control your moves”. But this is only a half of true. The Gusp mentioned: - “We use our archetype against our self”. So there is no way to obstruct you if you have really good moving archetype in your dreams. Now some say so just focus on something and you will be free, but what if you are seriously distracting. I think we need to create another moving archetype in our dreams: - “We don’t need to move in our dreams to get where we want, you can stand still and at the same time move around your dreams”. Then we can move where we want and at the same time we focus on something and those who obstruct our way should disappear.

Any archetype is limiting. It would be best if we didn't have to use any at all. Confusing, perhaps, but it would allow unlimited freedom. But unfortunately we need our archetypes to function.

The trick is that knowing they limit you, try not to let that happen. You do that by either thinking outside the box (Why move when you could teleport? Why teleport when you can be in two places at once?), or being fluid with the use of your archetypes. Don't get stuck in the same ones. That's what hell is, and the pope would agree with me on that 100%.

Originally Posted by Dovanele

I have created good moving archetype. I think almost everyone of us had dreams where something is obstructing our way or didn't let us go where we wanted. I think this is one of most annoying thing in our dreams, because we waste our precious lucid time fighting with our own demons. Now some of people will say: - “This is because they distract you from your purpose and then they control your moves”. But this is only a half of true. The Gusp mentioned: - “We use our archetype against our self”. So there is no way to obstruct you if you have really good moving archetype in your dreams. Now some say so just focus on something and you will be free, but what if you are seriously distracting. I think we need to create another moving archetype in our dreams: - “We don’t need to move in our dreams to get where we want, you can stand still and at the same time move around your dreams”. Then we can move where we want and at the same time we focus on something and those who obstruct our way should disappear.

I was reading some stuff on Eckanar. Pretty interesting religion. They focus a lot on dreams. They said no one really moves in dreams.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Any archetype is limiting. It would be best if we didn't have to use any at all. Confusing, perhaps, but it would allow unlimited freedom. But unfortunately we need our archetypes to function.

The trick is that knowing they limit you, try not to let that happen. You do that by either thinking outside the box (Why move when you could teleport? Why teleport when you can be in two places at once?), or being fluid with the use of your archetypes. Don't get stuck in the same ones. That's what hell is, and the pope would agree with me on that 100%.

I was thinking about that recently. How could we battle in dreams with absolutely no archetypes? It boggles my mind.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Any archetype is limiting. It would be best if we didn't have to use any at all. Confusing, perhaps, but it would allow unlimited freedom. But unfortunately we need our archetypes to function.

The trick is that knowing they limit you, try not to let that happen. You do that by either thinking outside the box (Why move when you could teleport? Why teleport when you can be in two places at once?), or being fluid with the use of your archetypes. Don't get stuck in the same ones. That's what hell is, and the pope would agree with me on that 100%.

You say thinking outside the box, but you still using some archetype to go around your own archetypes.
4 Rule. There is no random dreaming, everything follow archetypes. So even you say for yourself don't use archetypes, your brains at the same moment already using archetypes. So only way out is to have good archetypes patterns, that can be creatively injected and modified in dream process.

Just curious, whats the point of dream battle?

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Just curious, whats the point of dream battle?

Well, like Teh Cusp said, there are two scenarios:

1) Both people want to fight.

2) One person does, and the other does not.

If it's number 1, it's really fun. If it's number 2, it may be really frustrating if you are the one that does not want to fight. Then, you are being forced to, so it's good to learn to kick butt. Both of these guys could probably kick my arse. I fought the Cusp, and he kicked my butt, but he doesn't remember.

I also fought Raven Knight, and she kicked my butt also, and that was a really cool shared lucid that we both remembered.

I also fought Tooth, a Nightstalker and kicked his butt, then we found out he's just a kid.

I also fought Walms, and Raven watched, and logged the dream, but he doesn't remember.

Raven vs. Nomad

Why dont you just make yourself transparant? Nobody can hit you then. Lol... How do you know when somebody wins if both dreamers are immortal?

As The gusp said:- "There is nothing you can do to them, you can only trick them into "harming" themselves."
Yes it's true we harm oursefl that's why we die or get lost if we lost focus on target and then we are get jailed in our mind jail. Dream battle it's not about battle is about the dream controll that is essence of all dreams.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Why dont you just make yourself transparant? Nobody can hit you then. Lol... How do you know when somebody wins if both dreamers are immortal?

That is a great idea. But, what if someone breathes you in or becomes a ghost hunter or something?

You win when you kick their ass or kill them. Of course no one really dies. I killed myself in a dream. It was cool. Check out the shared dream DJ. there are some cool dream battles in it.

WOW, this is all very interesting. I have never thought that fighting could be so much fun. I am a peace and love hippie at heart and always thought that lucid dreaming was for transcending karma and negative emotional states. I always thought that there were a million things I'd rather be doing than fighting, like visiting other worlds, going to astral temples and the hall of records, going to heaven and hell. Time travel, making love to dakinis, etc. I have been in a few confrontations and fights though and I have to admit that it was kind of fun to kick some ass, but I didn't concieve that there could be some cool applications to this stuff.

Once in a non lucid dream I was holding someone's baby and a huge tiger was stalking me. I was scared so I threw the baby at the tiger and I took off leaving the tiger to eat the baby.

One time a big ogre thing like in Lord of the Rings movie was after me so I just transformed myself into a huge Balrog and chased him away.

A few times I fought like I was in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dagger.

But I never sought out these situations. I just might next time.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

You win when you kick their ass or kill them.

*facepalm* You still don't get it. I'm going to have to learn you the hard way.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

I am a peace and love hippie at heart and always thought that lucid dreaming was for transcending karma and negative emotional states.

But I never sought out these situations. I just might next time.

It doesn't have to be about violence or hurting someone. In a lot of my best fighting dreams, my opponent and I would hold back just when we were about to land a devastating blow. Whoever acknowledges the good move, and we continue. And awesome battle with not one blow landed.

For me it's a thrill I imagine professional sports players feel, when you do just the right move it's beautiful like dancing.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

*facepalm* You still don't get it. I'm going to have to learn you the hard way.



It doesn't have to be about violence or hurting someone. In a lot of my best fighting dreams, my opponent and I would hold back just when we were about to land a devastating blow. Whoever acknowledges the good move, and we continue. And awesome battle with not one blow landed.

For me it's a thrill I imagine professional sports players feel, when you do just the right move it's beautiful like dancing.

Then how do you win?

When someone picks a fight with me, I start dancing, throws them off and they totally forget they were trying to fight with me. That's how I win flawless victory!

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Then how do you win?

What are you asking the cusp for? You're obviously far more advanced than him.. he should be asking you!

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

When someone picks a fight with me, I start dancing, throws them off and they totally forget they were trying to fight with me. That's how I win flawless victory!

Dance helps you because you have archetype that will work every time when you use it. I have a pray archetype that helps me then when I want. This is not about distracting or whatever its all about how strong is your archetype and how you are mastered your archetypes and emotion control.

Maybe a battle of mental power like telekinesis would be cool? Kind of like a game or a sporting match, eh?