Thread: Breaking into someone's dream?

I think it's possible, but I have never tried it. I think it's wrong, kind of like walking into someone's house uninvited.

I'm not sure about forcing yourself into their dream. If you call the person's name, and get them to appear (I call it spawning). You can get them into your dream. This could end up being shared.

Human consciousness and dreams are a process of the brain, the brain is an organ, the same as the heart or stomach.

You can no more "break into someones dream" than you can "eat breakfast for someone" or "scratch to get rid of another persons itch".

If you disagree that mental phenomena are biologically based, then i suggest you go take LSD or go get really drunk.


Yes dreams seem like some fantastic other world, they are amazing experiences.
BUT do not mistake the wonders of human psychology for something they are not.

I know It's difficult to accept that we are not only seemingly trapped inside our bodies of flesh, but a better understanding is that we ARE nothing but those bodies.


But, our thoughts, feelings, memories, everything we are, are processes of that body (of which the brain is just one organ).

It took me years to accept myself and I understand why people want to find answers like "souls" and magical abilities. It makes our inevitable death less scarey if there is a chance that we are something more than just our bodies.

But, fear should not be a reason to create and live by beliefs that are false. However scarey the reality.

Like mentioned, I can call someones name and if they wish can come into my dream, if allowances where given to do so.

~once I was told I forced someone into MY dream, kin to summoning against their will. But that is awful to contemplate, and I am unsure of the validity of it anyhow.~

But...once I was pulled from my dream.Either I was 'pulled' by a person or I changed gates in dream, but I was very pissed off about it ( I had liked where I was at, and what I was doing), after telling off the person in question, I went back to where I had been before. To say the least, I was uncomfortable with that experience.

Morrigan

Some people have great imaginations.
Just a shame it's not real.

Personally, I'm normally just as cynical. But how can two people have the exact same dream and interact with each other? If you want "biological" proof, shared dreams are commonly found in twins. Since twins are biologically the same, they share the same brain waves. If those brain waves "tuned in" to each other and intermingled, isn't it possible that one's consciousness could enter another's?

Yeah, I've done this quite by accident. What i did was, i dreamt i was floating above the person as they were sleeping. then i kind of fell into their dream. That led to one of the most longest dreams i've ever had.

Originally Posted by Royalpeach

Personally, I'm normally just as cynical. But how can two people have the exact same dream and interact with each other? If you want "biological" proof, shared dreams are commonly found in twins. Since twins are biologically the same, they share the same brain waves. If those brain waves "tuned in" to each other and intermingled, isn't it possible that one's consciousness could enter another's?

Well, i've had two seemingly shared dreams in my life.
So i know the that the experience of seeming to share a dream can be quite convincing, but...

I don't jump to the conclusion that the experience was a genuine shared experience.
I think the most likely explanation is a shared theme.
Dreams are based on daily experience, so it's not unlikely, that two friends, two twins, or anybody close, would be having similar experiences in the day, similar concerns, similar conversations... all food for dream material.
It's not unlikely then that on rare occasions two close people will have dreams of very similar themes, with uncanny seeming similarity.

I often dream of friends, and im sure my friends often dream of me.
So, its not unlikely that now and then our dreams are similar, and also not unlikely that on even rarer occasions, we'll have similar dreams in which we also both dream about each other.

And what with the human mind being "designed" to look for patterns, that we will see even more similarity than there actually is.
I mean we can see faces and animals in clouds! It's human nature to change events after the fact (one of the main problems with witness statements in court rooms!). Plus everyone likes a good story, its also human nature to "beef up" an event to make it sound more interesting... chinese whispers and all that. Most of the time we do it without even realising, we're so good at it, we believe our own embellishments.

Of course the brain wave theory could be an (unlikely) possibility, but considering the amplitude of neural activity, you're more likely to pick up signals from your bedside radio alarm clock than from a brain on the other side of a city!
(and what about the other thousands of closer brains all giving out signals too?)


ps. do you have a source for your "proof" about twins? because im sure it would have made worldwide headlines if telepathy had been proven.

Originally Posted by Royalpeach

Pf you want "biological" proof, shared dreams are commonly found in twins. Since twins are biologically the same, they share the same brain waves. If those brain waves "tuned in" to each other and intermingled, isn't it possible that one's consciousness could enter another's?

^^ Ignoring the rude skeptic above me

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

ps. do you have a source for your "proof" about twins? because im sure it would have made worldwide headlines if telepathy had been proven.

Obviously, there's no way to prove a dream happened, or that it was even remotely the way someone said it had, so the skepticism factor still lives in the evidence. Maybe the people that reported it just experienced a rare coincidence, maybe they were delusional, or maybe neither. No way to tell for sure.

Look I'm sorry, it's just I've read a lot of ridiculous things in BD but that really takes the cake (second only to someone who thought their cat could astral plane). So sorry, it was a bit rude of me I s'pose.

I guess if someone ever proves that dream sharing, telepathy, astral planing, psychic powers and premonitions really do exist you'll be able to laugh back at me and boy will I look stupid. However I don't suggest holding your breath for that day to come

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

Look I'm sorry, it's just I've read a lot of ridiculous things in BD but that really takes the cake (second only to someone who thought their cat could astral plane). So sorry, it was a bit rude of me I s'pose.

I guess if someone ever proves that dream sharing, telepathy, astral planing, psychic powers and premonitions really do exist you'll be able to laugh back at me and boy will I look stupid. However I don't suggest holding your breath for that day to come

I'm not saying I believe it any more than you do. Personally, I'm really cynical of people that claim they can "read minds" or "astral plane" as well. I'm only saying, anything's possible. Who believed that objects were made of atoms at first?

Originally Posted by Royalpeach

I'm not saying I believe it any more than you do. Personally, I'm really cynical of people that claim they can "read minds" or "astral plane" as well. I'm only saying, anything's possible. Who believed that objects were made of atoms at first?

Yeah it certainly would be amazing to discover any one of those phenomena I listed were possible. It would open up a whole new exciting realm to explore. And for me personally, well, it would give me hope of seeing my lost loved one again. Ah 'tis wonderful to dream...

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it untrue. I firmly believe we are more than just chunks of flesh. I have seen too much evidence that has convinced me otherwise. If I believed there was nothing other than a brief life in this physical body I might as well kill myself now and be done with it... It's better to die than to live without hope...

Also, even if a belief is false, if it brings comfort and happiness while not hurting anyone, what is wrong with it? The worst case scenario is that I believe in further lives for my whole life, getting comfort and purpose from that belief, and then I die and find out I was wrong... No loss there.

And maybe I can't prove the other worlds exist, but I challenge you to prove they don't exist!

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Human consciousness and dreams are a process of the brain, the brain is an organ, the same as the heart or stomach.

You can no more "break into someones dream" than you can "eat breakfast for someone" or "scratch to get rid of another persons itch".

If you disagree that mental phenomena are biologically based, then i suggest you go take LSD or go get really drunk.


Yes dreams seem like some fantastic other world, they are amazing experiences.
BUT do not mistake the wonders of human psychology for something they are not.

I know It's difficult to accept that we are not only seemingly trapped inside our bodies of flesh, but a better understanding is that we ARE nothing but those bodies.


But, our thoughts, feelings, memories, everything we are, are processes of that body (of which the brain is just one organ).

It took me years to accept myself and I understand why people want to find answers like "souls" and magical abilities. It makes our inevitable death less scarey if there is a chance that we are something more than just our bodies.

But, fear should not be a reason to create and live by beliefs that are false. However scarey the reality.

I don't have an experience that felt like another human.

I was recently (last few months or so) chased by something from dream to dream that annoyed me. What I did was enter a dream that felt to be entirely my own creation (no one else's intent was holding the dream up), then after my pursuer followed me in, quickly intended that dream to end. This was different from intending to wake up. Although, I did awake suddenly with a jarring sensation, like I'd just run into a wall (without the bruising). I expected the effect to be worse for my pursuer.

Here's hoping that this thread doesn't lead to a generation of dream murderers. XD

Originally Posted by mentalenforcer

I don't have an experience that felt like another human.

I was recently (last few months or so) chased by something from dream to dream that annoyed me. What I did was enter a dream that felt to be entirely my own creation (no one else's intent was holding the dream up), then after my pursuer followed me in, quickly intended that dream to end. This was different from intending to wake up. Although, I did awake suddenly with a jarring sensation, like I'd just run into a wall (without the bruising). I expected the effect to be worse for my pursuer.

I would like to hear this dream in detail.

Sadly, that's all I remember. It was non-lucid, aside from the fact that my behavior indicated I must have known at some level.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Human consciousness and dreams are a process of the brain, the brain is an organ, the same as the heart or stomach.

You can no more "break into someones dream" than you can "eat breakfast for someone" or "scratch to get rid of another persons itch".

Nope. Human consciousness is an electromagnetic field.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro..._consciousness
The brain is a part of the body. The body generates an electromagnetic field, which is the sum of the EM-fields of the cells in the body. You also think and remember with your little toe, as the EM-field is responsible for consciousness, not the brain alone. This is evidenced by transplant memories.
http://www.med.unc.edu/wellness/main...r%20memory.htm


So you see, most people reason that consciousness is in a fixed state, something solid, therefore, it can't influence anyhting else as it is stuck into the brain. But this is not true, electromagnetic energy behaves more like a fluid and is obviously not stopped by anything. Just like the EM-field of the earth moves the needle of the compass, so does the EM-field of your body move the functions in your cells. Or even in the cells of other people. Scientists have already proven this claim by inventing devices which influence the EM-field and by doing that change the perception of the world.. hallucinations and OBE's occur.

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it untrue.
I firmly believe we are more than just chunks of flesh. I have seen too much evidence that has convinced me otherwise. If I believed there was nothing other than a brief life in this physical body I might as well kill myself now and be done with it... It's better to die than to live without hope...

Think about it this way.
I too am human,
I too don't want death to be the end.
I too don't want to loose my loved ones and this beautiful world once i die.

Why then, would I choose to accept that death is the end when I could share a belief
like your own?

Problem for me is, I am not given a choice, because the evidence won't give me
that choice. The evidence all points to us being animals, with short lives, finite lives.
and when we die that is it.


So instead the only choice im given is between accepting the truth, or living in a delusion.

You see, the evidence for death being the end is SO STRONG, that even though
my very existence depends on it, I am given no choice but to accept it.

It's not that im being difficult and want to argue with you, because I'd truely love
for you to be right. Unfortunatly for us both, regardless of what we want to be true,
the universe is how it is, and no amount of wanting, or wishing can make it any other
way.


As for "killing yourself", well, that's a whole different discussion, but think of it this way... are spring flowers more or less beautiful because they will only last a season? Does their death make them more or less precious?

(edit: also it makes more sense to kill yourself if you do believe in an afterlife, because why live on earth when you can just kill yourself and live for eternity, without disease, old age and pain that are part of this world. Which, lets face it is why religious extremeists strap bombs to themselves. You simply don't do that if you accept the reality that life is precious and that once its over its over.)

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

Also, even if a belief is false, if it brings comfort and happiness while not hurting anyone, what is wrong with it? The worst case scenario is that I believe in further lives for my whole life, getting comfort and purpose from that belief, and then I die and find out I was wrong... No loss there.

That's a very common argument, and on the surface it seems to make sense.
But it's actually the same as saying:
Imagine you have only 24 hours to live, and your doctor has a choice, he can either tell you the truth, or he can lie and say that you're healthy and will likely live a long life.
Which would you rather he do?
Give you the chance to live your last 24 hours as if they matter, making the most of every second. Or give you a warm fuzzy feeling that you're "ok" and but let you waste your last 24 hours of life, doing your laundry and spending the day at work?

Once you realise life is short, precious and a one off, you are given the freedom to embrace every moment, to cherish every second.

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

And maybe I can't prove the other worlds exist, but I challenge you to prove they don't exist!

Well, what you are doing is a very common mistake of people with beliefs.
It is up to the person who makes an extraordinary claim to provide evidence, Not the other way around.

But if you want to play that game, I can prove they don't, using the exact same logic you are using... you see...
An invisible alien from the future, who only I can see, told me all this stuff, and told me that I am absolutely right, and that your argument is false.
Maybe i can't prove he exists, but I challenge you to prove he dosn't.

(i get the feeling you're an intelligent girl, and i'm assuming that you'll understand the point i'm making with this joke )

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

But if you want to play that game, I can prove they don't, using the exact same logic you are using... you see...
An invisible alien from the future, who only I can see, told me all this stuff, and told me that I am absolutely right, and that your argument is false.
Maybe i can't prove he exists, but I challenge you to prove he dosn't.

(i get the feeling you're an intelligent girl, and i'm assuming that you'll understand the point i'm making with this joke )

I can prove that he doesn't because last night I broke into his dream and offed him.

All silliness aside, however; rewind some 900 trillion years. The universe is a microscopic, hot, dense ball of gas. Without some sort of higher power, what turned a speck of gas into trees, birds, plants, humans? Even if some chemical reaction did form all of us, what ingrained us with instinct, consciousness, the will to live? Picture this: you're an aviation hobbyist. You want to make a replica of a WWII plane. A truckload of parts gets dropped off at your door. Only a fool would call this jumbled mess a plane. Sure, it has all the parts necessary to become a plane, but some higher power- you, in this case -has to put them all together.

Originally Posted by Royalpeach

I can prove that he doesn't because last night I broke into his dream and offed him.

All silliness aside, however; rewind some 900 trillion years. The universe is a microscopic, hot, dense ball of gas. Without some sort of higher power, what turned a speck of gas into trees, birds, plants, humans? Even if some chemical reaction did form all of us, what ingrained us with instinct, consciousness, the will to live? Picture this: you're an aviation hobbyist. You want to make a replica of a WWII plane. A truckload of parts gets dropped off at your door. Only a fool would call this jumbled mess a plane. Sure, it has all the parts necessary to become a plane, but some higher power- you, in this case -has to put them all together.

Ah, the teleological argument.
Unfortunatly Darwin answered that one quite some time ago...

four words: Evolution by natural selection

I respect you in this discussion, and would appreciate you respect me enough to watch this video that will answer you much clearer than I can:

Though this argument does seem rather logical and reasonable, I realize now that it brings about another question. The rose thorn bugs Mr. Dawkins depicted have an ingenious way of protecting themselves from predators. However, I asked myself during that segment; how did the bugs know what a rose thorn looked like? It seems a silly question, but think about it. Is it probable or logical that those bugs saw a rose, realized that the thorns protected it from being eaten, and remembered it for millions of years as it shaped itself into a thorn? Natural selection is actually another aspect of chance, when you comtemplate the basis for it. A species spontaneously mutates. That mutation helps it survive. The ones that don't mutate can't survive well and die out. Wash, rinse, repeat. That mutation only happened by chance, and it just happened to help the being. While I see your reasons supporting your theory, and understand them, it's astronomically imperceivable that one thing leading to another could end up with bacteria evolving into the thousands of different lifeforms we have today. Also, if the bacteria evolved because of natural selection, because the mutations allowed them to survive, then why do we still have bacteria today? And where are the intermediate stages between the bacteria and humans? Plus, what created the bacteria in the first place? Natural selection has more holes in it than the creationist argument.

P.S. Though I believe your hypothesis is wrong, you've certainly put up excellent support for it. Well done.

I think you may want to do a bit more study into natural selection, as it's clear that you misunderstand some of the most vital aspects of it. But so did I for years, so it's completely understandable.

There are very clear cut answers to your questions, but you've made too many points that i can't answer them all without writing an essay that i'm sure no one will actually read.

I'd suggest you read The Blind Watchmaker:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Watchm...4241445&sr=8-1

although this video is quite good at explaining the basics too:



But, let's for a moment assume the creationist argument is the correct one (which of course i don't believe, but for the sake of argument) then...

I'll ask you a couple of questions if you don't mind.

Is God more complicated than the Universe, or even is God more complicated than a human?

Who created God?

If a human is complicated enough to require a creator, then why wouldn't God also require a creator?

If God dosn't require a creator, then why then should something less complicated than God require a creator?

Do you not think that the arguments you raise that require a creator, are just as equally relevant to the creator itself?
and dosn't that create an infinite regress?