Thread: what do you do if you determine you are in bardo (the after death "dream")???

I will tell you what I am going to do: become an android! I will wait of course, until the technology is good enough that I can't get a virus!

But, until then, I am just going to fly around in the dream plane, and be a cool god.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I will tell you what I am going to do: become an android! I will wait of course, until the technology is good enough that I can't get a virus!

But, until then, I am just going to fly around in the dream plane, and be a cool god.

thanx buddy i'll be a a ninja or something... or maybe a tiger... but for real i'm curious and death is something i kind of want to be prepared for if this bardo thing is true and if it is all us lucid dreamers are in good shape!

Originally Posted by sleepyzac

thanx buddy i'll be a a ninja or something... or maybe a tiger... but for real i'm curious and death is something i kind of want to be prepared for if this bardo thing is true and if it is all us lucid dreamers are in good shape!

But for real... The funny this is, I am not joking.

Well actually, according to the tibetan book of the dead YOU'RE ALREADY IN ONE. This reality is also a 'bardo'. There are countless bardos you can reincarnate into after dying, earth is one of them!

If you don't want to just reincarnate into another world like earth, then what you are supposed to do in that inbetween place of bardos is recognize yourself. In this inbetween place you're going to be visited by gods and demons, but they are all you!

Here's an online ebook translation of the book itself: http://www.summum.us/mummification/tbotd/

Get it straight from the horse's mouth!

As a caveat, trying to prepare for death by reading the TBotD is like preparing for a driving test by studying an engine diagram. If you've been embedded in the symbol set all your life and the deities and demons are as familiar as your close relations, having someone recite this at your deathbed may be of use. It's a great read or listen regardless (I'd almost recommend audio over text), but its wide circulation owes mainly to having been one of the earlier artifacts of Tibetan Buddhism to reach the West in the nineteenth century, quite out of context with the larger body of teachings.

Knowing the movements of your own mind and establishing close identity with the ground state of being through meditation, and/or becoming intimately familiar with the symbol set so that something like the TBotD will be of some value 'in the clutch' are more practical approaches.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Here's an online ebook translation of the book itself: http://www.summum.us/mummification/tbotd/

Get it straight from the horse's mouth!

cool thanx i'll check that out

Originally Posted by Taosaur

As a caveat, trying to prepare for death by reading the TBotD is like preparing for a driving test by studying an engine diagram. If you've been embedded in the symbol set all your life and the deities and demons are as familiar as your close relations, having someone recite this at your deathbed may be of use. It's a great read or listen regardless (I'd almost recommend audio over text), but its wide circulation owes mainly to having been one of the earlier artifacts of Tibetan Buddhism to reach the West in the nineteenth century, quite out of context with the larger body of teachings.

Knowing the movements of your own mind and establishing close identity with the ground state of being through meditation, and/or becoming intimately familiar with the symbol set so that something like the TBotD will be of some value 'in the clutch' are more practical approaches.

right but still the question is how do you REACT to the visions, demons, gods, etc. to acheive liberation??? or is doing nothing (ie no grasping or aversion) the idea???

Originally Posted by juroara

Well actually, according to the tibetan book of the dead YOU'RE ALREADY IN ONE. This reality is also a 'bardo'. There are countless bardos you can reincarnate into after dying, earth is one of them!

If you don't want to just reincarnate into another world like earth, then what you are supposed to do in that inbetween place of bardos is recognize yourself. In this inbetween place you're going to be visited by gods and demons, but they are all you!

intersting thanx, how do you do this?

Originally Posted by Taosaur

As a caveat, trying to prepare for death by reading the TBotD is like preparing for a driving test by studying an engine diagram. If you've been embedded in the symbol set all your life and the deities and demons are as familiar as your close relations, having someone recite this at your deathbed may be of use. It's a great read or listen regardless (I'd almost recommend audio over text), but its wide circulation owes mainly to having been one of the earlier artifacts of Tibetan Buddhism to reach the West in the nineteenth century, quite out of context with the larger body of teachings.

Knowing the movements of your own mind and establishing close identity with the ground state of being through meditation, and/or becoming intimately familiar with the symbol set so that something like the TBotD will be of some value 'in the clutch' are more practical approaches.

Interesting.

I'm just going to trust in myself and my own personal journey rather than attempting to embed some symbol set so that I will be "liberated" after death. If I am ready to be "liberated" after this life, then I will be. Personally, I think that I still have quite a bit to learn before reaching that point...and I really wouldn't mind coming back to earth (or wherever) a few times if that's what it takes in order to learn those lessons.

Besides, what do you have to look forward to after being "liberated"?

(also I can completely unfamiliar with this book so forgive my ignorance)

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Interesting.

I'm just going to trust in myself and my own personal journey rather than attempting to embed some symbol set so that I will be "liberated" after death. If I am ready to be "liberated" after this life, then I will be. Personally, I think that I still have quite a bit to learn before reaching that point...and I really wouldn't mind coming back to earth (or wherever) a few times if that's what it takes in order to learn those lessons.

Besides, what do you have to look forward to after being "liberated"?

oh man where to begin, ummmm the basic idea is that life on earth is the middle of the six realms with demi gods and gods above and animals, hungry ghosts and hell below so... this is not where you want to be liberation is supposedly the best thing in existence, it is THE goal. it is realizing the ultimate truth which is beyond explanation. compared to ultimate reality, the reality we inhabit is a form of hell... but then they say that once you comprehend ultimate reality (enlightenment) then everything is equal for you, good evil, pain pleasure, same thing... confusing and deep but do some reading and you'll understand why i want OUT!!!

Originally Posted by sleepyzac

oh man where to begin, ummmm the basic idea is that life on earth is the middle of the six realms with demi gods and gods above and animals, hungry ghosts and hell below so... this is not where you want to be liberation is supposedly the best thing in existence, it is THE goal. it is realizing the ultimate truth which is beyond explanation. compared to ultimate reality, the reality we inhabit is a form of hell... but then they say that once you comprehend ultimate reality (enlightenment) then everything is equal for you, good evil, pain pleasure, same thing... confusing and deep but do some reading and you'll understand why i want OUT!!!

This kinda sounds as ridiculous as the catholic notions of Heaven and Hell I was brought up into. (not trying to be insulting to anyone btw)

However, I will probably check out the audio books. I'm an audio book addict. I'm interested to know exactly how this book might "liberate" someone after death. And regarding Tao's point about having it read on your death bed, lol, that reminds me of cramming for an exam. I guess cramming works...but I just don't see the soul going anywhere until it is absolutely ready, regardless of what you read in a book.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

This kinda sounds as ridiculous as the catholic notions of Heaven and Hell I was brought up into. (not trying to be insulting to anyone btw)

However, I will probably check out the audio books. I'm an audio book addict. I'm interested to know exactly how this book might "liberate" someone after death. And regarding Tao's point about having it read on your death bed, lol, that reminds me of cramming for an exam. I guess cramming works...but I just don't see the soul going anywhere until it is absolutely ready, regardless of what you read in a book.

oh i know, don't worry see the thing is that the realms are also a metaphor for what we experience in our consciousness, emotions, pain, pleasure, etc. i was raised catholic to and trust me, this is not the same. buddhism is based largely on psychology. the buddha himself said never do anything just because someone said to even if it was him, try it for yourself to make sure it works. buddhism works with the phsycological habits that we all have to make our mental state better. the idea is that, whatever you belive, you can acheive enlightenment in this life, not after death. this is what is so cool is that there is a goal that people all over the world reach. and beyond that there are definate results on almost a day to day basis. comparing my mental and physical state after meditating for a year to before is a pretty amazing contrast! and there are points of wonderful feelings that can be reached in meditation that are better than booze or smoke or anything... oh no i sound like a rehab worker... for real though it's good stuff! most religions just say "be good and have faith in something you have no proof of and you go to heaven." buddhism says: "try it, if it works use it. if not learn new methods. if you practice enough you will get results." the idea is that we all have the info that the buddha got from enlightenment in our subconcscious and the path can bring it out which is the equivalent to waking from a dream. the tibetans believe a lot of the work of the path can be done in dreams. the after death stuff is mainly a tibetan thing. zen monks believe in doing things in this life and you don't hear much about dreams or the between lives states at all. its just life death and rebirth until enlightenment...

Originally Posted by Taosaur

As a caveat, trying to prepare for death by reading the TBotD is like preparing for a driving test by studying an engine diagram. If you've been embedded in the symbol set all your life and the deities and demons are as familiar as your close relations, having someone recite this at your deathbed may be of use.

That is a great way of putting it This type of instruction requires you to have personal knowledge of the entire language of symbolism behind it. In fact, much of the traditional teaching requires you to actively meditate on the different symbols to establish a personal relationship with and understanding of them. You pretty much hypnotize yourself into really knowing what these symbols mean, so you can later transcend them and gain pure understanding.

Think of it like reading. You spend years learning letters, learning words, learning to read. Then, when you actually read, you forget the words are even there. You just directly experience the message or story.

Originally Posted by sleepyzac

right but still the question is how do you REACT to the visions, demons, gods, etc. to acheive liberation??? or is doing nothing (ie no grasping or aversion) the idea???

Unless you engrave that symbol set deeply on your awareness, there's no reason to expect you'll see "demons, gods, etc." Whatever you do encounter, you'll be in a much better position to react appropriately if you are deeply familiar with the workings of your own mind and the ground of being. If you want an orderly path, you're staring at one by even asking the question: choose a lineage and begin training.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

This kinda sounds as ridiculous as the catholic notions of Heaven and Hell I was brought up into. (not trying to be insulting to anyone btw)

However, I will probably check out the audio books. I'm an audio book addict. I'm interested to know exactly how this book might "liberate" someone after death. And regarding Tao's point about having it read on your death bed, lol, that reminds me of cramming for an exam. I guess cramming works...but I just don't see the soul going anywhere until it is absolutely ready, regardless of what you read in a book.

The text is designed to be read at the bedside of the dying; it's literally a guided tour through the experience of dying. As a Tibetan, and most likely a monk or nun if you're having it read to you, death would probably not be the first time you encountered the text and it would be an aid to lifelong practices, not the sole instrument of liberation. Like I said, it's definitely still worth a look/listen--Richard Gere did a good audio version.

For a broader look at Tibetan Buddhism, I HIGHLY recommend Sogyal Rinpoche's A Tibetan Book of Living and Dying.

Also, there's no soul, and little likelihood of awareness persisting very far into the process of death, much less beyond, without concerted and skillful effort on the part of the dying. That point's probably not worth pursuing in this thread, so just sayin

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

That is a great way of putting it This type of instruction requires you to have personal knowledge of the entire language of symbolism behind it. In fact, much of the traditional teaching requires you to actively meditate on the different symbols to establish a personal relationship with and understanding of them. You pretty much hypnotize yourself into really knowing what these symbols mean, so you can later transcend them and gain pure understanding.

Think of it like reading. You spend years learning letters, learning words, learning to read. Then, when you actually read, you forget the words are even there. You just directly experience the message or story.

Also a great analogy.

Also, there's no soul, and little likelihood of awareness persisting very far into the process of death, much less beyond, without concerted and skillful effort on the part of the dying. That point's probably not worth pursuing in this thread, so just sayin

Well THAT peaked my interest lol...please...do go on!

The buddhist philosophy as I understand it recognizes only one emptiness, awareness & the play of darkness & light in awareness expressing through all that is.

To light a candle is to cast many shadows. One light of awareness creating shadows/forms of illusion with the back drop of eternity or emptiness

...i hope that make sense

to everybody thanx guys. so basically this tibetan bardo stuff is EXTREMELY esoteric essentiantly! lol ok i'll just stick with my chan/zen monks and nuns and learn what they can teach me and just leave the death areas to the vajrayana

oh and aquanina; your avatar is a good example of the results of enlightenment, save for his rare emotion and ability to be violent, dr. manhattan is enlightened. enlightenment is the ability to know deeply life and the mind down to the finest details, although one cannot have his magical abilities, his mental state is that of a buddha in a way.

Dear Mr. Zach of Sleeply Head, to answer your original question when you recognize you are in the bardo of the after life first you will pass thru the Chikhai bardo. This bardo is defined by the dawning of the clear radiance/light of mind. When you see this & recognize this to be you're fundamental reality then recognition and liberation are simultaneous. However, b/c of negative inertia or karma, you might become afraid, indifferent or complacent. In doing so you will pass thru this bardo into the Chonyid Bardo. Here you will be recieved by the peaceful deities, wrathful deities and the herukas. If you recognize these to be none other than the clear light or your fundamental nature then recognition and liberation are simultaneous. If because of fear, indifference, complacency or other negative karma you will realize that you no longer have a body or form of flesh & blood. Not only that you will have no reflection nor shadow. Then being desirous of a body will begin to see couples fucking, different colored lights and possibly lamenting or performing rituals for your former dead body. Here if you are attentative to the reading of the doctrine you will be asked to focus on your guru, or tutelary deity or buddha and if you are able to recognize these as the clear light of awareness then you shall break free from the wheel of karma and obtain perfect buddahood in the sambogakaya/energy body. Here once again all that is necesary is to recognize this and liberation will be won.

There is nothing really to do if you can recognize and ultimately that is all there is to do. However, because of indolence we may be distracted and forced to wander. If there be any lucidity here then they suggest that you meditate upon your former practices, gurus, deites and the like to set yourself face-to-face with the situation at hand in hopes of focusing the mind so to realize recognition of the clear light as yourself.

Dr. Manhattan's abilities may not be commonly possesed by man but many if not all of his abilities have been possessed by shaman, lamas yogis, Uri Geller, Nina Kunalinga and several others.

Consequently you may be interested in Tibetan Yoga & the secret doctrines by W.Y. Evan Wentz. It talks about methods to systematically cultivate these what may be called by other traditions as siddhis.

Happy Trails

Originally Posted by Hijo de la Luna

Dear Mr. Zach of Sleeply Head, to answer your original question when you recognize you are in the bardo of the after life first you will pass thru the Chikhai bardo. This bardo is defined by the dawning of the clear radiance/light of mind. When you see this & recognize this to be you're fundamental reality then recognition and liberation are simultaneous. However, b/c of negative inertia or karma, you might become afraid, indifferent or complacent. In doing so you will pass thru this bardo into the Chonyid Bardo. Here you will be recieved by the peaceful deities, wrathful deities and the herukas. If you recognize these to be none other than the clear light or your fundamental nature then recognition and liberation are simultaneous. If because of fear, indifference, complacency or other negative karma you will realize that you no longer have a body or form of flesh & blood. Not only that you will have no reflection nor shadow. Then being desirous of a body will begin to see couples fucking, different colored lights and possibly lamenting or performing rituals for your former dead body. Here if you are attentative to the reading of the doctrine you will be asked to focus on your guru, or tutelary deity or buddha and if you are able to recognize these as the clear light of awareness then you shall break free from the wheel of karma and obtain perfect buddahood in the sambogakaya/energy body. Here once again all that is necesary is to recognize this and liberation will be won.

There is nothing really to do if you can recognize and ultimately that is all there is to do. However, because of indolence we may be distracted and forced to wander. If there be any lucidity here then they suggest that you meditate upon your former practices, gurus, deites and the like to set yourself face-to-face with the situation at hand in hopes of focusing the mind so to realize recognition of the clear light as yourself.

Dr. Manhattan's abilities may not be commonly possesed by man but many if not all of his abilities have been possessed by shaman, lamas yogis, Uri Geller, Nina Kunalinga and several others.

Consequently you may be interested in Tibetan Yoga & the secret doctrines by W.Y. Evan Wentz. It talks about methods to systematically cultivate these what may be called by other traditions as siddhis.

Happy Trails

thank you soooo much!!! this is the answer to the question i developed during my readings! i kept hearing about visions and dreams and how your behavior affected your rebirth but nothing about what this behavior could be. much appreciated

i will check out the books as well.

This is my realm of study!

First of all, bardo means "in between".

The six realms of rebirth in tibetan Buddhism are not bardos. Waking life is a bardo, whichever life you are living. There is a bardo of dying which ends when you confront the clear light of death. The clear light is the only time when you are not in a bardo. Then comes the bardo of seeking rebirth, which is what I think you are questioning about.

Look at it this way: life, death, are all bardos and bardos are like dreams; we think they are real unless we are lucid. In the after death (seeking rebirth) you might see anything, just like a dream. You will see things which scare you so that you look for incarnation to escape to. Like a nightmare. You may also dream very pleasant things. In this way, you may dream heavens or hells. In the Tibetan culture they have certain demons and deities. You probably won't see these exact entities because you are not Tibetan. Anyway, even according to the Tibetans these beings are only dream characters with no inherent reality in themselves. The thing to do is to become lucid and realize that it is all a manifestation of your mind. Just like lucid dreaming.

What to do once you realize that it is all a manifestation of your mind? Be as lucid as possible and merge with the clear light no matter which bardo you are in. That goes for waking life, which is a bardo, as is the dream state is a bardo also. The clear light is your actually true nature beyond the ego and mind. Merge with the clear light and you have achieved liberation from the wheel of birth-death-rebirth.

It is not so easy, however. Just think that you are here now so you didn't realize it last time. But you were fortunate enough to become a human who has the ability for self-awareness and lucid dreaming and abstract thought and meditation, etc. So, if you cannot merge with the clear light and you find yourself drifting towards rebirth instead, what you do is to be careful and choose the rebirth that you want and/or need rather than run into the first available womb you encounter in order to escape whatever paranoid nightmare you might be having.

The point that the Buddhists are trying to make is to motivate you to escaping the whole damn wheel of life-birth-rebirth. It is the wheel of existence. if you exist, you exist on this wheel that goes round and round and you will die, and go through the bardos of death and the bardos of rebirth until you have realized that it all is a dream. So the Buddhist point out that no matter how fortunate your rebirth might seem to be, you will still suffer. They point out that even the Gods suffer and are ignorant of their true nature.

Obviously you will want to be reborn into a good life, and one that you will have opportunities to learn about your true nature. You don't want to be reborn into a horrible life where you will be enslaved, tortured, and/or starved. You don't want to suffer. it might be tempting to be reborn as what they call 'Gods' which according to the Tibetans are beings that have long lifespans and enjoy all kinds of pleasure. But they are not motivated to learn about who they really are and instead just spend their time enjoying their status. Now, you probably won't want to be reborn as an animal. According to the teachings, a human rebirth is the best and hardest to come by, but seeing that the population keeps growing it seems to be getting easier to be reborn but we are also coming to a collective suffering. But humans are in a rare position that they have the self-awareness to become enlightened and they suffer enough to be motivated to finding a way out of suffering.

The thing with the bardo is that you can't remain anywhere. Sometimes you will be happy, sometimes you will suffer, but you will have to be reborn somewhere unless you merge with the clear light. So, even if you want to be a lucid shapeshifting bardo surfer forever, you will find yourself compelled into a womb.

The thing is to see a womb for what it really is, because, just like in dreams, things are not always what they seem. Many times you might see a bush that you want to hide behind from the police, or Terrorists, or wild animals hunting you but that bush will end up being a womb. Or you may see an abandoned boxcar in an old trainyard that you will want to hide in. These things are wombs. And they are symbols for the types of wombs they are. For example, you would not want to hide in a cave in the forest because that is probably a womb for an animal like a bear. If you were a bear before you died you might feel at home in a cave and go there and surprise! you are reborn as a bear again. You don't want to hide in an condemned building in the ghetto unless you want to be reborn as an impoverished crackbaby, etc.
But the real thing to do is to work on your lucidity while you are alive so that in the bardos you can achieve lucidity and then you can do whatever you want and be enlightened.
Check out this thread where I go into it a lot more: http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=87772

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

This is my realm of study!

First of all, bardo means "in between".

The six realms of rebirth in tibetan Buddhism are not bardos. Waking life is a bardo, whichever life you are living. There is a bardo of dying which ends when you confront the clear light of death. The clear light is the only time when you are not in a bardo. Then comes the bardo of seeking rebirth, which is what I think you are questioning about.

Look at it this way: life, death, are all bardos and bardos are like dreams; we think they are real unless we are lucid. In the after death (seeking rebirth) you might see anything, just like a dream. You will see things which scare you so that you look for incarnation to escape to. Like a nightmare. You may also dream very pleasant things. In this way, you may dream heavens or hells. In the Tibetan culture they have certain demons and deities. You probably won't see these exact entities because you are not Tibetan. Anyway, even according to the Tibetans these beings are only dream characters with no inherent reality in themselves. The thing to do is to become lucid and realize that it is all a manifestation of your mind. Just like lucid dreaming.

What to do once you realize that it is all a manifestation of your mind? Be as lucid as possible and merge with the clear light no matter which bardo you are in. That goes for waking life, which is a bardo, as is the dream state is a bardo also. The clear light is your actually true nature beyond the ego and mind. Merge with the clear light and you have achieved liberation from the wheel of birth-death-rebirth.

It is not so easy, however. Just think that you are here now so you didn't realize it last time. But you were fortunate enough to become a human who has the ability for self-awareness and lucid dreaming and abstract thought and meditation, etc. So, if you cannot merge with the clear light and you find yourself drifting towards rebirth instead, what you do is to be careful and choose the rebirth that you want and/or need rather than run into the first available womb you encounter in order to escape whatever paranoid nightmare you might be having.

The point that the Buddhists are trying to make is to motivate you to escaping the whole damn wheel of life-birth-rebirth. It is the wheel of existence. if you exist, you exist on this wheel that goes round and round and you will die, and go through the bardos of death and the bardos of rebirth until you have realized that it all is a dream. So the Buddhist point out that no matter how fortunate your rebirth might seem to be, you will still suffer. They point out that even the Gods suffer and are ignorant of their true nature.

Obviously you will want to be reborn into a good life, and one that you will have opportunities to learn about your true nature. You don't want to be reborn into a horrible life where you will be enslaved, tortured, and/or starved. You don't want to suffer. it might be tempting to be reborn as what they call 'Gods' which according to the Tibetans are beings that have long lifespans and enjoy all kinds of pleasure. But they are not motivated to learn about who they really are and instead just spend their time enjoying their status. Now, you probably won't want to be reborn as an animal. According to the teachings, a human rebirth is the best and hardest to come by, but seeing that the population keeps growing it seems to be getting easier to be reborn but we are also coming to a collective suffering. But humans are in a rare position that they have the self-awareness to become enlightened and they suffer enough to be motivated to finding a way out of suffering.

The thing with the bardo is that you can't remain anywhere. Sometimes you will be happy, sometimes you will suffer, but you will have to be reborn somewhere unless you merge with the clear light. So, even if you want to be a lucid shapeshifting bardo surfer forever, you will find yourself compelled into a womb.

The thing is to see a womb for what it really is, because, just like in dreams, things are not always what they seem. Many times you might see a bush that you want to hide behind from the police, or Terrorists, or wild animals hunting you but that bush will end up being a womb. Or you may see an abandoned boxcar in an old trainyard that you will want to hide in. These things are wombs. And they are symbols for the types of wombs they are. For example, you would not want to hide in a cave in the forest because that is probably a womb for an animal like a bear. If you were a bear before you died you might feel at home in a cave and go there and surprise! you are reborn as a bear again. You don't want to hide in an condemned building in the ghetto unless you want to be reborn as an impoverished crackbaby, etc.
But the real thing to do is to work on your lucidity while you are alive so that in the bardos you can achieve lucidity and then you can do whatever you want and be enlightened.
Check out this thread where I go into it a lot more: http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=87772

awesome! much appreciated. you are a very knowledgable fellow! my are is more therevada and chan and zen, the tibetan stuff is new to me but i just bought the tibetan book of living and dying by sogyal rinpoche so that should help

Very good book.
Basically what you do when you realize that you are in a bardo (which we always are) is that you keep going and try to realize everything as part of your true nature. If you end up in a hell you keep going. If you end up in a heaven you keep going. If you end up as a human you keep going. Don't stop until you merge with the Clear Light of your true nature in your heart!

rigpa