Thread: The Nature of Dream Control

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Then why don't you try holding your breath until that happens?

I've another idea. Why don't you stop giving me attention and see if I cease to exist?

Originally Posted by The Cusp

This thread is at heart all about personal belief systems. They are an integral part of dreaming, and you can't study dreaming without taking that into account.

Well, you can actually. Which was why the beyond dreaming section was created.

Originally Posted by moonshine

I've another idea. Why don't you stop giving me attention and see if I cease to exist?

Actually, it's high time I do just that. If I hadn't bothered to respond to any of your posts, you wouldn't still be posting this crap.

Like I do with annoying DCs, I'm now going to ignore you into oblivion. Not literally of course, but you're not worthy of my attention, so for all intents and purposes, you no longer exist to me. At least in this thread. I may still burn you when you start spouting your crap in other threads. It's just too easy and hard to resist.

Why nobody is criticizing the basic points of this thread? I think that the attention theory is incorrect. But as there are no criticisms, it looks like it falls to me to criticize.

Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.

That's untrue.

Consider all those cases when you were doing something, and then suddenly a dream character would walk up to you whom you haven't seen anywhere in the vicinity previously. Where did he come from? He certainly didn't require your attention to become existent, he simply appeared and started to act without your invitation.

Therefore it's not true that everything in a dream requires your attention to exist. Many elements of a dream are enacted subconsciously, and whatever made them existent and whatever makes them act in certain ways is out of control and doesn't operate through your attention.

It's true that it's possible to make things non-existent by ignoring them in a LD. However the notion of stopping something to exist by ignoring it isn't related to attention. It's related to a subconscious belief that if you stop seeing something in a dream, it will vanish. If you had a different belief, things would be different. Take a person in this thread who made a tsunami disappear by ignoring it, it's obvious that it worked this way because he expected it to work this way. In other words, it's normal dream control, you achieve what you expect to achieve. That doesn't tell us anything about objective rules of attention, neither that it's involved in any way at all.

The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.

So for testing purposes I stared at my hand during a LD. I stared at it and stared, and it proceeded to look the same. I stared more and more, then considerably more, and finally my little finger changed its color slightly.

So, it kind of "proves" that giving a lot of attention to something produces new details related to it, but I didn't notice enough details to speak of. Therefore it's wrong that the more attention you give something, the more details it produces.

In fact, this method proves that it works in an opposite way: it made my hand look like the normal hand for a considerably longer time that it would if I didn't stare at it uninterruptedly! My last statement can easily be checked by looking away from something in a dream for a while and then looking back at it, in this case the object you looked at will show new details or will otherwise be changed. Interruption does introduce new details, but uninterrupted staring impedes this process.

Originally Posted by Arutad

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Everything requires your attention to exist.

That's untrue.

Consider all those cases when you were doing something, and then suddenly a dream character would walk up to you whom you haven't seen anywhere in the vicinity previously. Where did he come from? He certainly didn't require your attention to become existent, he simply appeared and started to act without your invitation.

If it wasn't true, then that would imply that the dream world is a stable world just like RL. That is clearly untrue.

Those dream characters that appear from nowhere do not have a previous history or existence, except for recurring characters.

Where did they come from? They were spawned from personal archetypes or schemata. They did not exist before you layed eyes on them or otherwise conceived of them in some dark corner of your mind.

Originally Posted by Arutad

Therefore it's not true that everything in a dream requires your attention to exist. Many elements of a dream are enacted subconsciously, and whatever made them existent and whatever makes them act in certain ways is out of control and doesn't operate through your attention.

The initial posts I made in this thread were far from complete, so perhaps I wasn't very clear initially. Your attention is merely the trigger or catalyst. What it triggers are archetypes, so focusing on the ocean for instance could yield anything form sea monsters to tidal waves, anything you associate with the ocean.

There is a lot of randomness involved in which direction those archetypes might go, but emotions do limit the range of possibilities.

Originally Posted by Arutad

If you had a different belief, things would be different. Take a person in this thread who made a tsunami disappear by ignoring it, it's obvious that it worked this way because he expected it to work this way. In other words, it's normal dream control, you achieve what you expect to achieve.

Saying what you expect to happen actually happens is the single biggest misconception about LDing there is. Even the most experienced LDers experience countless failures while attempting things. If they didn't expect those things to work, they never would have tried it in the first place.

It's not expectations that limit people, it's archetypes. I'm reminded of one of TwoShadows' LDs, where she repeatedly tried to pass through a solid wall but kept smashing into it (that image cracks me up!). It wasn't her expectations that failed her, she tried like hell. It was the well developed archetype that solid objects are just that, solid.

In order to override that particular hurdle, one would need to supercede that archetype of solid matter with one of something less substantial like mist, or something equally relevant to that individual. A physicist might use the space between particles, while someone into astral projection might use the insubstantial astral body.

Saying control relies on expectations is close, yet innacurate.

Originally Posted by Arutad

So for testing purposes I stared at my hand during a LD. I stared at it and stared, and it proceeded to look the same. I stared more and more, then considerably more, and finally my little finger changed its color slightly.

What did you expect to happen? You succeded in producing a change in the color of your finger. Hands are a fairly stable archetype. Had you been prone to warts in RL, you might have seen warts. But we experience very few variations in the appearance of our hands throughout our lifetimes. Perhaps if you had focused on the discoloration in your finger and then checked the rest of your body, you might have seen discolorations on the rest of your body as well.

The very first time I looked at my hands in a dream (and only time) I saw various things flashing in and out of existance in the palms of my hands like flipping through the pages of a book, like when you make animations in the corners and flip the pages. There was money, keys, sticks of gum, food, everything and anything I might possibly hold in my hands. That's what an archetype is, the sum total of associations with a certain subject or idea.

I appreciate your attempt at trying this out, but that one example is like saying just because you saw one car on fire, that all cars catch on fire.

I've experimented with this thouroghly in several lucids, as well poured over other people's DJs. Next time instead of your hands, try looking at some squirming insects, even better if they are stinging insects, and see how fast they multiply. The classic tooth dream is a great example if a rather extreme one.

Originally Posted by Arutad

In fact, this method proves that it works in an opposite way: it made my hand look like the normal hand for a considerably longer time that it would if I didn't stare at it uninterruptedly! My last statement can easily be checked by looking away from something in a dream for a while and then looking back at it, in this case the object you looked at will show new details or will otherwise be changed. Interruption does introduce new details, but uninterrupted staring impedes this process.

There, you've said it yourself, you didn't allow for any dramatic change to occur. You were limited to the first rule that everything requires your attention to exist, thereby maintaining a solid image of your hands. I don't think we disagree on how those changes take place. THat's one aspect I never got into much, mainly due to the lack of discussion that took place in this thread. I thank you for speaking up, and also welcome anything else you might have to say on the subject.

Also Arutad, perhaps your focus was too narrow. I was always assuming there were were several elements in play. Perhaps you were so intent on your hands that in that particular dream that everyone of those elements had to do with your hand?

If you want to play with your hands, do it in the cold snow by a warm fire. Then concentrate on your hands switching between the cold snow or hot fire as your secondary focus. It brings in the new element of certain physical sensations which are often absent in dreams unless you are otherwise paying attention to you body.

I also assumed there were themes already play, dream locations, characters, story lines,

ground sky and everything in between.

Then throw emotions into the mix, and you a whole other range of possibilities. You zoned out everything but your hands. You have to let some other element in to work with, otherwise all you're left with is everything requires your attention to exist.

If you were to try with your hands again with only a few elements in play, you'll start to notice the unique range of possibilities every area focus offers, visual or otherwise. Certain themes that you can find or induce in a reliable manner. But fewer elements means fewer possibilities available to you, so having multiple elements in play grants you multiple ways to fine tune your control.

The number of elements in play isn't as important as the ability to balance them out as needed. Or just travel through them, bringing in new elements and letting go the bothersome ones to see where it lead you.

It's in that context I say everything requires your attention to exist, the more attention you give something the more related detail it creates.




I thought I was done writing stuff in this thread, but you guys got me thinking about something I asked in my original post, "Do emotions require your attention to exist?"

I'm thinking emotions are ways to focus attention, independent of where your attention is placed. We focus on different specific things in every emotional state.

Going with the ocean archetype again, you have a huge amount of things associated with that concept. If you're focused on the ocean scene enough that it's creating an ocean dream, any number of thing related the ocean might appear. That's a lot of possibilities.

But only a few of those possibilities are going to be associated with strong emotions. This limited number of possibilities creates a predictable result. Emotions are powerful means of change in dreams because they determine or rearrange how you focus on things.


Now I want to end this rambling by saying dream control is exactly like refining a search engine query for something obscure. There are a lot of possible results for both search engines and dreams, most of them spam. But combining the right mix of words or elements you have in play, you can find the specific result you desire out of a seemingly limitless number of overall possibilities. Some elements bring you closer to your goal, some don't help so you remove them from your querry.

Cusp, a related question I wanted to hear some input on:

Often, when an archetype comes into play, there is some action in the dream before the switch(i.e. things happen before my teeth fall out). What would you say the delay is due to? The brain is working slowly enough that there is noticable time before a change? The brain slows down changes to the dream on purpose to preserve the flow of the story? Something within the archetype relating to speed? Something else entirely?

Originally Posted by The Cusp

If it wasn't true, then that would imply that the dream world is a stable world just like RL. That is clearly untrue.

When you dream you don't normally have consciousness and any directed attention to speak of. It's a play of your subconsciousness. Yet you can remember yourself in buildings and rooms that seems stable, you have characters speaking to you on their own.

You don't do it, your attention is not involved in the process.

But you say that everything in a dream requires attention to exist. Then why do we have dreams at all, why lack of attention doesn't prevent this spontaneous manifestation of the subconsciousness to happen each night?

Because our attention is not needed for our dreams to exist!

Where did they come from? They were spawned from personal archetypes or schemata. They did not exist before you layed eyes on them or otherwise conceived of them in some dark corner of your mind.

But that's what I'm talking about. There is a place in your mind that creates them, and it doesn't require your attention, it doesn't require you to be aware of what it does. It makes dreams on its own, attention is not involved in supporting them.

Saying what you expect to happen actually happens is the single biggest misconception about LDing there is. Even the most experienced LDers experience countless failures while attempting things. If they didn't expect those things to work, they never would have tried it in the first place.

I'm saying that because that's my experience, not because I'm thinking it theoretically.

An example would do. Usually if I LD in my apartment I want to go out, so I jump down through the window. Windows are usually closed. I had no problem jumping through them for a long time, never felt any obstacle on my way. But once I tried to run through and banged my forehead on it. I was surprised, tried again and banged my forehead again. Then I stepped back and remembered how I never had troubles before. I actually thought that no matter what happened, now that I remember that I never had troubles before and have certainty of success, I won't fail. And I jumped through the window with no problem.

My certainty of success was an expectation, and it changed everything.

Next time instead of your hands, try looking at some squirming insects, even better if they are stinging insects, and see how fast they multiply. The classic tooth dream is a great example if a rather extreme one.

I regularly look at various objects in my LDs, not only at my hand. The same. You look at something, it remains what it is. You look away, it changes.

There, you've said it yourself, you didn't allow for any dramatic change to occur. You were limited to the first rule that everything requires your attention to exist, thereby maintaining a solid image of your hands. I don't think we disagree on how those changes take place.

The problem is that it doesn't work the way you think it does. You don't need to look at something to let it change, you need to look away from it.

Of course looking at something will work too, but only because you expect a change, not because you look at something. It's the same old dream control, you expect associated details or things to spring up and it happens. It doesn't make it "a law" of the dream-world. And it's not the nature of dream control in general, it's the rule of your personal dream-control that you created for yourself.

Originally Posted by midgitmage

Anyone have any thoughts on whether emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?

I know this question was posed at the beginning of this thread and so I have had sometime to think about it and the short answer is that I feel fairly confident that emotions do not need a person's conscious attention to exist. (Whether conscious attention = awareness is another debate altogether, but I am asserting that they are for the purpose of this thread as that is what has seemed to be the general trend so far.)

I learnt this while working with teenagers that had been severely abused and are now all diagnosed as emotionally disturbed. I learnt quite a bit about processing emotions and emotional triggers from that job.

Also, I am not a neuroscientist so some of this may not be correct but I think that emotions reside in the lower part of the brain and awareness and thoughts exist in the higher part of the brain that developed later in human evolution. These two parts of the brain can and do operate independently at times and can even conflict with each other. So basically I think emotions belong to the lower brain and are more automated where as attention belongs to the higher brain and can be controlled more easily. I do think that subtle emotions that have not come into our conscious awareness can and do exist and do affect us in ways we aren’t aware of. The more powerful emotions force their way into our conscious awareness and in doing so affect us in ways that we are both aware and not aware of.

In my time working with emotional disturbed young men this became quite apparent. Often times a small trigger could set off a boy. The trigger might be something as small as a similar type of boots that a person wore that were similar to one of the boy’s abusers (this is a real life example and did happen). Such an environmental trigger would start to set the boy off in an emotional storm, sometimes instantly but sometimes slowly. A trained professional can watch as the boy gets slowly more and more unstable as minutes and hours go by until going into an emotional episode. In the early stages the boy might not even know there is anything wrong, might not even make a conscious connection between the boots of the new person and the boots of the abuser, but the subconscious does and starts to produce anxiety. Later the anxiety grows, but like I said a trained professional that knows the boy well and knows signs to look for might even be able to realize that the boy is going to have an emotional episode even before the boy does because the boy is not consciously aware of his emotions yet still they are there lurking below the surface subtly affecting the boys behavior.

Hope that makes sense. My posts get kind of long but I like to be clear. Thanks.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

[/SIZE][SIZE=4]3. Strong emotions have a devastating effect on everything around you.

I've decided to include emotion as a separate rule. I'll come up with a better way to sum it up eventually, but that's pretty much the gist of it for now.

I wonder if it is important to distinguish between strong negative and strong positive emotions. I personally can think of ways in which strong positive emotions have helped me in real life and in the dream world (or so it seemed at the time). But I would definitely agree that strong negative emotions could have a negative impact. I am glad that you mentioned how your mood while you were in one room seemed to affect the mood of others in other rooms. I do think that moods, energy levels, and emotions are transferable and contagious.

As a teacher I know the value of matching and then raising the emotional mood of the classroom. If I go in with too high energy when teaching a low energy class, I will go over their heads. If (and this rarely happens) I go in with too low energy when teaching a high energy class then I will go under their heads. The important thing is to get everyone on a similar energy level and then raise them together by just being slightly higher than they are. I have to say though that I do believe that body positions and voice tone and rhythm do play a role in this, but I do think there are other contributing factors too, some of which might seem psychic.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

[/SIZE][SIZE=4]3. Strong emotions have a devastating effect on everything around you.

I've decided to include emotion as a separate rule. I'll come up with a better way to sum it up eventually, but that's pretty much the gist of it for now.

On a different note, I am paying much more attention to my emotions in dreams and trying more to actively engage and create positive emotions in an attempt to extent and stabilized my lucid dreams. Often times my LDs only last a few seconds. After having read this thread a few days ago I tried to WILD. I am happy to report that infusing positive emotions in my dream seemed to make it last much longer. I had the longest LD of this year. It lasted around 2 minutes, which is much better than the normal trend for these days of 2-3 seconds. It was followed by two shorter and less powerful DEILDs.

Then yesterday I tried to LD again while applying this technique. I was greeted with my normal 3 second LD followed up by a very real false awakening.

Today, almost nothing.

I can’t quite figure out why I have a problem extending, stabilizing, and intensifying lucid dreams. I know that you have talked about introversion and maybe that is my problem. I don’t really ever seem to get lost in too much detail unless maybe when I am flying but that seems to be a fairly universal problem.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

A Newb's Experience with Lucid Dreaming

Using these rules for dream control requires a balance of attention. This leaves only three outcomes for any newbie dreamer. Achieve a balance, or tip the scale in one direction or the other.

1. Balance: If a first time LDer begins to interact with his environment right away, then he inadvertently achieves balance as his awareness gets spread around the dream scene. Things seem stable as long as they keep up a steady interaction with the dream.

2. Introversion: The dreams realizes they are dreaming and are so amazed, excited and thrilled by this fact that they focus all their attention on that thought alone. What that implies, the realization of what's happening, what's possible, all these thoughts direct a sudden rush of your awareness inwards to deal with all these mental machinations, which creates a corresponding vacuum in the dream around them. With no attention to sustain it's self, the dream collapses and the dreamer wakes up.

3. Overkill: Realizing they are dreaming, the dreamer checks things out and something fantastic, bizarre or just plain interesting catches their eye. They go in for a closer look and the directed increase in attention causes that element to grow out of control, demanding even more attention. They get in too deep and don't know how to stop it. The resulting confusion also leads to waking up, which is a form of the second outcome.

I must have a lot of introversion (I think). I know my mind often goes off on a tangent and I lose the dream, but sometimes it seems to fade away on its own. Not sure why. I have definitely experienced hyper-detailed dreams where things seemed even more defined that real life. In these dreams I could see so many vivid and bright colors. Hear things that I normally couldn’t like an insect’s heartbeat. I could look down upon a single hair on my arm so that it looked so huge….. but I cannot remember every getting sucked into too much detail in these dreams that it made my dream stop.

I have often been aware of a thought arising in the back of my mind while having a LD and if I entertain it then I can get engrossed in that thought and lose my lucid dream. Would this also be a form of introversion? This thought may or may not be related to the dream and has often led me into a non-lucid dream where said thought is the main concept of the dream. It is almost like if I pay attention to it, instead of focusing on maintaining the lucid dream, then I lose the LD. Does this make sense? It is almost like the Buddhist concept of the monkey mind overpowers my LD.

Here is a link on the monkey mind. http://yoga.about.com/b/2007/01/18/q...onkey-mind.htm

Originally Posted by Something Else

I must have a lot of introversion (I think). I know my mind often goes off on a tangent and I lose the dream, but sometimes it seems to fade away on its own. Not sure why. I have definitely experienced hyper-detailed dreams where things seemed even more defined that real life. In these dreams I could see so many vivid and bright colors. Hear things that I normally couldn’t like an insect’s heartbeat. I could look down upon a single hair on my arm so that it looked so huge….. but I cannot remember every getting sucked into too much detail in these dreams that it made my dream stop.

I have often been aware of a thought arising in the back of my mind while having a LD and if I entertain it then I can get engrossed in that thought and lose my lucid dream. Would this also be a form of introversion? This thought may or may not be related to the dream and has often led me into a non-lucid dream where said thought is the main concept of the dream. It is almost like if I pay attention to it, instead of focusing on maintaining the lucid dream, then I lose the LD. Does this make sense? It is almost like the Buddhist concept of the monkey mind overpowers my LD.

Here is a link on the monkey mind. http://yoga.about.com/b/2007/01/18/q...onkey-mind.htm

Your experiences of lucid dreaming seem to be somewhat akin to mine as much as i think the reason for why my lucids only lasted for a dozen seconds or so is the same.
You've got the right answer, but just knowing it is only 1/10 of the answer. It took me a while to understand it and actually condition my mind to not extricate "me" from the dream scape; akin to learning not to pay attention to the mouth and salivating to avoid salivation when WILDing for example. It just kinda happened that i stopped paying attention to it after a while... same with lucid dreaming Intent is a powerful ally.
And learn to not force your will.
Softly, ever so softly . . .

Originally Posted by anomanderis

Your experiences of lucid dreaming seem to be somewhat akin to mine as much as i think the reason for why my lucids only lasted for a dozen seconds or so is the same.
You've got the right answer, but just knowing it is only 1/10 of the answer. It took me a while to understand it and actually condition my mind to not extricate "me" from the dream scape; akin to learning not to pay attention to the mouth and salivating to avoid salivation when WILDing for example. It just kinda happened that i stopped paying attention to it after a while... same with lucid dreaming Intent is a powerful ally.
And learn to not force your will.
Softly, ever so softly . . .

I also really resonated with all of your posts. Actually, I plan on pm you soon. But anyway I am still keeping at it and will consider you advice.

I had another LD last night, but this time only had tactile sensations. I kept on rubbing my hands together and trying to look at them but no visuals; I mean nothing. Then I was started rubbing them on my arms and legs. I rubbed them so hard they hurt. This was actually a first for me. I haven't ever caused myself pain before in a dream. Next I decided to try to rub my feet thinking that there were a lot of nerves in my feet. I touched them and I gained sight. I rubbed them more and then my vision froze in its frame and then whited out and then blacked out. This was also a little strange because rarely does a dream ever white out. The whole thing maybe lasted 20-30 seconds.

Anyway, thanks for the advice and look forward to talking to you soon.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

The time has come to reveal where I learned of these dreaming rules, and at the same time to throw any credibility this thread might have had right out the window.

Secret Origins: Enter the Night Stalkers.

It all started with the infamous Night Stalker/Dream Walker thread.http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=37621

That thread was about people who supposedly enter other people's dreams and torment them. I like to keep an open mind, and was willing to at least consider the possibility. If there were people capable of such things, then I reasoned that DV would be a good place for them to find targets. Many people, including myself, keep detailed dream journals on this site. I figured the DJs would allow any of these Night Stalkers to read about their visits afterwards.

Being a LDer with many years of experience, I arrogantly assumed I would be able to handle any such visitors with ease. So I put out an open challenge to any of these "Night Stalkers" that might be lurking the forums in the hopes being targeted. I was really cocky about it, repeatedly calling them out, calling them names.

Before very long, it appeared I had gotten what I had asked for. I still didn't really beleive it at first, and figured those dreams were self induced. But the thing was, I was consistently getting my ass kicked in those dreams, night after night. This was odd, because I rarely lose a dream fight, especially when I'm lucid. But to get my butt whooped almost every single night was unprecedented in my dreaming.

It was a perplexing situation, because I considered my LD skills to be superb, especially when it comes to smashing things. But these opponents in my dreams could take anything I threw at them, which was starting to frustrate me. I started going over those dreams in an attempt to find out what I was doing wrong, or what I could do differently to turn things around. My best lucid tricks were totally ineffective.

Epiphany
These dreams continued night after night, with me trying to defeat these people and having no luck. As the dreams progressed, I began to notice how these opponents were able to defeat me. That's when I saw that we weren't playing by the same rules. I began to watch what it was they were doing to me, or rather how they were doing it, and I began to emulate them.

That's when things started to turn around for me, and I started win dream battles again.

The Difference
The problem I was having before was that I was attacking them directly, while these so called Night Stalkers were attacking me inderectly. In fact, I had mistaken their attacks as thier main weapon, but it turns out their true weapon was how they manipulated my attention. The attacks were just an incedental result.

Now a lot of people say that since it's your dream, anyone who enters it can't hurt you. And this is true. But what they can do is use your dream against you.

I was just flat out attacking, but these NS would build up their attacks with an almost theatrical flare. Instead of just letting loose with an energy blast like I would, they would hold the charge, letting it fill my senses in a manner that captivated my attention. Being so focused on what they were doing, it became part of my dream, and thus real for me. My direct attacks were to easy for them to ignore, and thus had no power over them.

As I got better at thier style of combat, they would actually compliment me on maneuvers I would make. Winning these dream fights all came down to coming up with innovative ways to capture you opponent's attention.

After getting the hang of this, the resulting dreams I had were indescribible, yet thrilling beyond words.

The Players
There were the same two people that kept showing up and attacking me in this manner. I call them Gimpy and the ThumbMaster. They each had their own unique styles which helped to tell them apart.

ThumbMaster: This guy's main technique was assuming the role of torture interrogator. He would constantly demand answers to inane questions that had nothing to do with anything. In retrospect, it wasn't the questions that were important, but rather the tone they set. By demanding questions of me (he wouldn't even wait for an answer before asking his next question), it created an interrogation setting in my mind. Just by asking questions, he was able to create an atmosphere where he was in charge.

He also had this brilliant torture method where he would run his thumb along the muscles and ligaments in my shoulders finding painful spots and pressure points. He never actually hurt me, but used jsutt enough pressure to let me know he coud hurt me at any time he wanted. And that was the most important part. His masterfully directed my attention causing his torture to become the main aspect of my dream.

Gimpy: This guy was was less skilled than the ThumbMaster. He prefered to assume the role of an indestructible psycho killer who stalks you relentlessly. In fact he preferred the threat of chasing/stalking to actual physical violence, and would let me get away so he could continue with his relentless stalking. He was creating a scenaio of fear, which was much more important than actually attacking me.

THis guy was nigh indestructible, and nothing I threw at him would phase him in he least. THis was very annoying for me because I still had a thing for direct attacks.

One night, when nothing was working on this guy, I remembered something I had read in one of Castaneda's books about a weak spot on the energy body. I performed a special attack and managed to hurt him. I'm not telling what I did or how, but afterwards, I had the impression I actually hurt him. It wasn't just a dream attack, I felt I did real lasting damage to a real person. Not just to his dream body, but to his real body.

I asked around a month or two later if anyone had encounterd a DC that fit his MO, and also had a limp. Two people reported seeing a limping DC that behaved like Gimpy. They both reported that he had grey hair.

I seriously think I hurt that guy for real.

Real or Not?
From those series of dreams, I devised my three rules of dreaming. Everyone says I likely induced those dreams myself, and initially, I thought that was the case as well. But after going over them again and again, they are distinctly different from normal dreams.

For starters, normal dreams follow these rules without exception. I'm able to trace back where things came from as a result of what I had my attention fixed on, and more importantly, my attention would wander around naturally.

But in these shared dreaming encounters, I wasn't in control of my attention, they were. Even when I'm not in contol of my attention, I can still recognize the natural progression as it moves around, and recognize what drew my attention to certain things. But when I interacted with these two people, they were the ones that were directing my attention in a most unnatural manner.

The difference to me is very clear, and my dream dreams have not unfolded like that before or since. Keep in mind I have 15 years of DJs to compare these against. I'm not making this up because I want to be special as many people say. I'd much rather take full credit for discovering these rules, but unfortunately, they were demonstrated to me by other people. Furthermore, those rules were the last thing I was expecting to discover. I already thought I know all there was to know about LD fighting, so I was quite surprised to find that I didn't know the first thing about dreaming.

Questions.
What is a Night Stalker's True purpose?
Initially, I assumed they were just shit disturbing greifers, much like you will find in any online video game. People who delight in tormenting others. That may be the case, but I learned such a great deal from those encounters, I'm wondering if their true purpose was to teach. And if not teaching, then for practice. The learning curve was just so much higher interacting with them than in my subsequent dreams where I'm exploring these concepts by myself. You have not only your attention to deal with, but someone else's as well.

Why terrorize dreamers?
Either for teaching or for practice, it creates a scenario where the rules of engagement are implicitly understood. Fight or Flight, things couldn't be simpler. There is no need to set up rules or goals, which saves a lot of time.

Do they know how to cause real damage?
Either they know how to hurt people for real, and choose not to, or they have no idea how to do that, and I just stumbled upon it as a fluke. Were they trying to teach me and I took things too far? Or was it something they just didn't know how to do? I'm thinking they don't know how to hurt people for real. Mainly because I took to these practices like a fish to water, and it wasn't long before I consistently outclassed them in a very short period of time.



So there you have it. Send the guys with the butterfly nets to stick me in a padded room. As crazy as it sounds, the rules that came from it work, all the time, every time. Frankly I'm amazed at how little opposition this thread has gotten. I have to assume it's because these rules are so self evident, you can't argue against them, which is why I'm leaking this dirty little secret now.

Wouldn't be these dreamwalkers nightstalkers would they cusp.

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=9894

I spent several hours with a fellow LD'er digging up what we could find... If you have a look for yourself you will find in Lex's first post "they were talking about this over at club beach"

I found the club beach forum which is a jap anime site. I found the thread she was talking about and no one else mentioned nightstalkers, she brang it up, then another person confirmed it - Aeronolio, who is also known as Sanzora on DV (they have identical avatars). They both signed up on DV almost at the same time, they both live in South Africa, both like jap anime, and both like RPG games. If you have a look at World of Warcraft, you will see the terms "Dreamwalker" and "Nightstalker" plastered all over it.

The thing is.. their story implies that these 'nightstalkers' and 'dreamwalkers' and 'rogues' are all ordinary people who are part of a 'faction' (commonly used term in WoW), that know how to go into others dreams and taunt them. Not only has shared dreaming never been confirmed with a reputable account, it would serve absolutely no purpose to go into other peoples dreams. They are immature girls deluded with their own fantasy.

You would know this of course, having been the one who started the thread over on astral dynamics.
The one thing I can't figure out is why you would forget to mention the same in your Official History of The Night Stalkers post.

Hmmmmm.

Good god, is this really supposed to be a serious lucid dreaming forum?

With stuff like this "nightstalker" nonsense... people are going to be taking lucid dreamers as seriously as if we've just walked out of a mental home dressed a gandalf the wizard.

Dreams are a creation of our subconscious and conscious minds, correct? And these are formed by our own beliefs and experiences, right? Then it seems Night Stalkers can be as much a part of that experience as anything. I know several people who have dreamed the same dream at the same time (from their separate points of view). Which would be an important part of dream control, if it can be controlled. So it seems to fit quite well in this thread.
Night Stalkers may just be one person's experience with certain types of dream phenomena, but if learning about Dream Control came from the experience (which it does appear to), then Night Stalkers fit well within this thread.
Did the Night Stalker portion contain some information that some people may not agree with? Like the idea of shared dreams? Yes. Does that make it any less valid? Well, I don't like lawn Gnomes, but that doesn't mean other people should throw them away because I would. And I don't like hard core mathematics. It's too theoretical, and not practical enough. But by golly, though I don't see directly how we would benefit from it, some people manage to make it work, and change science (see: Einstein). It isn't that mathematics is proven correct. In fact, Physics will tell you that mathematics is an exact model trying to model an inexact world.
It is good to know where information came from so you can create a more full context for it, and place it in your own mental box. However, Moonshine, when you try to place it in everyone else's mental box, you are attempting to short circuit their method of learning for your own.
As for Shamanism and Magic, etc., these are belief systems. Belief systems color our dreams thoroughly, and alter how we can control them, and which methods work best for us. This is a thread on Dream Control, so it is still quite a valid topic.
It is nearly impossible to construct the idea of how beliefs affect our dreams without giving examples of beliefs affecting dreams, and also nearly impossible to give good examples or even pass along knowledge clearly unless it comes from your own belief system and experiences. Have you ever played telephone? That game is an example of why just passing on knowledge without experience can degrade quickly into nonsense.
So while you are attempting a forum control here, Moonshine, you are really just projecting YOUR OWN beliefs onto this thread, which is exactly what you are arguing is the problem with this thread. It might be better if you took a less hypocritical standpoint when you post to threads.
-Jim

I moved this week, don't have easy internet access hooked up yet, so haven't been around much.

Originally Posted by Licity

Cusp, a related question I wanted to hear some input on:

Often, when an archetype comes into play, there is some action in the dream before the switch(i.e. things happen before my teeth fall out). What would you say the delay is due to? The brain is working slowly enough that there is noticable time before a change? The brain slows down changes to the dream on purpose to preserve the flow of the story? Something within the archetype relating to speed? Something else entirely?

That's something I'm going to need to look into more, the art of change. Thus far I've just taken for granted that change does occur. I haven't studied where and under what circumstances change takes place yet.

But I think the timing issue is just a matter of waiting for an opportunity for change to occur.

Keeping a dream stable is a balancing act of focusing your attention on certain elements and avoiding or dealing other less desirable elements. So generally speaking, change will occur when you attention becomes unbalanced. Either too much on one element, causing it be grow and become more real, or not enough on other elements, causing them to become unstable.

As Arutad mentioned, things do tend to come out of nowhere. Off the top of my head, the three big change inducers are

-Looking away from something, then looking back
-Looking really close at something allowing change to occur outside your field of vision.
-Just looking somewhere new.

Originally Posted by Arutad

When you dream you don't normally have consciousness and any directed attention to speak of. It's a play of your subconsciousness. Yet you can remember yourself in buildings and rooms that seems stable, you have characters speaking to you on their own.

You don't do it, your attention is not involved in the process.

I think we always have consciousness. We are conscious during the day, and any non lucid dream seems like reality at the time, so I don't really see a difference. We react to our environment, make decisions, ect. The subconscious just determines the landscape we inhabit. The consciousness is always there dealing with it.

Originally Posted by Arutad

But that's what I'm talking about. There is a place in your mind that creates them, and it doesn't require your attention, it doesn't require you to be aware of what it does. It makes dreams on its own, attention is not involved in supporting them.

I'm saying that because that's my experience, not because I'm thinking it theoretically.

The conscious and subconscious are always in play. The consciousness directs what for the subconscious will take.

Originally Posted by Arutad

An example would do. Usually if I LD in my apartment I want to go out, so I jump down through the window. Windows are usually closed. I had no problem jumping through them for a long time, never felt any obstacle on my way. But once I tried to run through and banged my forehead on it. I was surprised, tried again and banged my forehead again. Then I stepped back and remembered how I never had troubles before. I actually thought that no matter what happened, now that I remember that I never had troubles before and have certainty of success, I won't fail. And I jumped through the window with no problem.

My certainty of success was an expectation, and it changed everything.

That wasn't expectation. You defaulted on the archetype of matter being solid because that's the most active and well defined one you have. You get more data confirming that in RL than any other model.

Then you overrode or invoked a new archetype, the formed from your previous experiences passing through the window.

The most likely reason you were able to pass through that window in the first place is because you were more focused on flying than on the obstacle solid matter might present. That forged a new archetype that you are now able to draw on by focusing your attention onto it, and becomes more reliable the more you use it.

Another reason I think expectation isn't accurate is because of the word "NOT". You walk around in a lucid repeating out loud "There are NOT going to be zombies, there are NOT going to be zombies...", while looking around to make sure there aren't any zombies.

It would be a pretty safe bet to say the average person in going to encounter a zombie in that situation. Trying to preemptively negate zombies in that case still invokes the zombie archetype, causing the very opposite of your expectations.

Originally Posted by Arutad

I regularly look at various objects in my LDs, not only at my hand. The same. You look at something, it remains what it is. You look away, it changes.

The problem is that it doesn't work the way you think it does. You don't need to look at something to let it change, you need to look away from it.

Of course looking at something will work too, but only because you expect a change, not because you look at something. It's the same old dream control, you expect associated details or things to spring up and it happens. It doesn't make it "a law" of the dream-world. And it's not the nature of dream control in general, it's the rule of your personal dream-control that you created for yourself.

I think you misunderstand. Directing your attention is not limited to the visual range of sensory input. It can be a feeling, a concept/theme/idea, a sound, a smell, a memory. What you look at can be a very minor part in all that. It's things that catch your attention and stick in the back of your mind that count.

I never really got how change occurs. Seemed almost redundant since dreams are so full of change. I completely agree change occurs when you look away. When I said change occurs by focusing on something, I meant focusing on something new.

I still maintain this thread is not about my personal control system. It's a general purpose system that transcends all belief systems. It allows you to take advantage of your own personal system, and whatever that may be is of no relevance other than incidental to this discussion. A dream is a dream. Whatever your beliefs they work in somewhat predictable ways you can take advantage of. I'm doing my best here to sum up those generalizations in terms that will apply to everyone.

Originally Posted by Something Else

In my time working with emotional disturbed young men this became quite apparent. Often times a small trigger could set off a boy. The trigger might be something as small as a similar type of boots that a person wore that were similar to one of the boy’s abusers (this is a real life example and did happen). Such an environmental trigger would start to set the boy off in an emotional storm, sometimes instantly but sometimes slowly. A trained professional can watch as the boy gets slowly more and more unstable as minutes and hours go by until going into an emotional episode. In the early stages the boy might not even know there is anything wrong, might not even make a conscious connection between the boots of the new person and the boots of the abuser, but the subconscious does and starts to produce anxiety. Later the anxiety grows, but like I said a trained professional that knows the boy well and knows signs to look for might even be able to realize that the boy is going to have an emotional episode even before the boy does because the boy is not consciously aware of his emotions yet still they are there lurking below the surface subtly affecting the boys behavior.

Hope that makes sense. My posts get kind of long but I like to be clear. Thanks.

That's a perfect example. The kid focuses on something with a strong emotional attachment, the powerful emotions magnify it's effect and start dredging up related memories which snowball out of control as he focuses on each new one.

It's exactly what happens in the classic tooth dream scenario.

Originally Posted by Something Else

I wonder if it is important to distinguish between strong negative and strong positive emotions. I personally can think of ways in which strong positive emotions have helped me in real life and in the dream world (or so it seemed at the time). But I would definitely agree that strong negative emotions could have a negative impact. I am glad that you mentioned how your mood while you were in one room seemed to affect the mood of others in other rooms. I do think that moods, energy levels, and emotions are transferable and contagious.

I don't see the need to distinguish between positive and negative emotions, it's the intensity of the emotion that counts. They each have their uses. As a teacher, you have to be both friend and disciplinarian.

Originally Posted by Something Else

As a teacher I know the value of matching and then raising the emotional mood of the classroom. If I go in with too high energy when teaching a low energy class, I will go over their heads. If (and this rarely happens) I go in with too low energy when teaching a high energy class then I will go under their heads. The important thing is to get everyone on a similar energy level and then raise them together by just being slightly higher than they are. I have to say though that I do believe that body positions and voice tone and rhythm do play a role in this, but I do think there are other contributing factors too, some of which might seem psychic.

Seem psychic, but I think it's just other ways or levels in which you capture and manipulate your student's attentions. Body position, voice tone and rhythm are good examples, but like in a dream, there are countless other ways you can do it.

One of the most effective methods I've seen a teacher us to gain control of an unruly class was to slam meter stick down on someone's desk as hard as he could. Talk about getting your attention!

Come to think of it, many of my teachers had unique ways grabbing and manipulating the student's attention. One could silence anyone with just a look. Another knew how to direct the other student's attention against you as a weapon in order to cow you into submission. A less subtle one was one teacher would fry up the cow brains we discected for the class to eat. All examples of directed attention which I think relate to dream control

Originally Posted by Something Else

I can’t quite figure out why I have a problem extending, stabilizing, and intensifying lucid dreams. I know that you have talked about introversion and maybe that is my problem. I don’t really ever seem to get lost in too much detail unless maybe when I am flying but that seems to be a fairly universal problem.

A stable dream requires a balanced focus of your attention. Becoming lucid upsets that balance, and sometimes you need to make a few corrections. The easiest thing to do might be to reset to your basic defaults though motion, which implies both your dream body and an environment to move around in and react to. Reestablish the basic framework, where you are, where you're going, what you're doing, what's happening around you.

You may even need to do that several times. I usually keep moving and doing crazy stuff like in the movie Crank. It keeps things stable, but holds me back somewhat because I become a little too involved with the environment which makes me more prone to distraction.

It's give and take really. Exerting control necessitates upsetting stability.

Originally Posted by jimmie

Dreams are a creation of our subconscious and conscious minds, correct? And these are formed by our own beliefs and experiences, right? Then it seems Night Stalkers can be as much a part of that experience as anything. I know several people who have dreamed the same dream at the same time (from their separate points of view). Which would be an important part of dream control, if it can be controlled. So it seems to fit quite well in this thread.
Night Stalkers may just be one person's experience with certain types of dream phenomena, but if learning about Dream Control came from the experience (which it does appear to), then Night Stalkers fit well within this thread.
Did the Night Stalker portion contain some information that some people may not agree with? Like the idea of shared dreams? Yes. Does that make it any less valid? Well, I don't like lawn Gnomes, but that doesn't mean other people should throw them away because I would. And I don't like hard core mathematics. It's too theoretical, and not practical enough. But by golly, though I don't see directly how we would benefit from it, some people manage to make it work, and change science (see: Einstein). It isn't that mathematics is proven correct. In fact, Physics will tell you that mathematics is an exact model trying to model an inexact world.
It is good to know where information came from so you can create a more full context for it, and place it in your own mental box. However, Moonshine, when you try to place it in everyone else's mental box, you are attempting to short circuit their method of learning for your own.
As for Shamanism and Magic, etc., these are belief systems. Belief systems color our dreams thoroughly, and alter how we can control them, and which methods work best for us. This is a thread on Dream Control, so it is still quite a valid topic.
It is nearly impossible to construct the idea of how beliefs affect our dreams without giving examples of beliefs affecting dreams, and also nearly impossible to give good examples or even pass along knowledge clearly unless it comes from your own belief system and experiences. Have you ever played telephone? That game is an example of why just passing on knowledge without experience can degrade quickly into nonsense.
So while you are attempting a forum control here, Moonshine, you are really just projecting YOUR OWN beliefs onto this thread, which is exactly what you are arguing is the problem with this thread. It might be better if you took a less hypocritical standpoint when you post to threads.
-Jim

Thank you Jim. That was very well said.

I think this is true nearly all the time...very true.

There are some instances where the first rule doesn't fit, though. For example, once I fell asleep on the plane and the music from my headphones bled into my lucid dream. In that dream, my attention or lack thereof could not have stopped the music from playing in my ears. So there are times where external stimuli can possibly affect us.

If you needed to direct attention for something to exist in a dream, then how could dreams begin? You can't direct your attention when nothing is there. And so that means something has to be there before you direct your attention so that you can direct your attention to it.

So basically I feel that the OP is a very true statement, but it is not absolute. I think there may be a piece or two that still needs to be added here. Thanks Cusp.

a

Originally Posted by The Cusp

HypnOAgogic Imagery

Originally Posted by jimmie

Well, I don't like lawn Gnomes, but that doesn't mean other people should throw them away because I would.

Bad analogy. Theres a difference between not liking Gnomes and trying to claim they are alive and watching us from the bottom of the garden, only moving at night when they report back to their dreamwalker overlords.

For example.

All of this sounds great!!! I'll to try it next time.

I honestly think you do yourself a disservice by shoehorning in occult aspects into what might otherwise be very useful advice.

It was a great tutorial through the first five pages or so.

Ok, seriously, I was saying the same damn thing though out the entire thread. I mean there there are only four rules and I went on about it for 14 pages! lol

Yes I repeated myself, but I did so in different ways, using different tacts, trying different directions and archetypes. What I was trying to express was not an easy thing to get across, and I used a variety of metaphors that I hoped appealed to different people.

Some people really liked and could relate the BD stuff, other's hated it. But that was the point, and an integral part of what this thread has been about. If parts of this thread appeal to someone while others don't, that's what I was trying to do. You're not missing out if you don't like or can't understand certain sections, they all say pretty much the same thing (but it evolved a bit over time). I used varied approaches to try to get through to a wider audience, but I hope the underlying ideas I was trying to get across remained constant through all of it.

I just provided several lenses that focused on the same thing. If a certain perscriptions hurt your eyes then just use the ones that work for you.