Thread: Walking Dead

I just find the "It's a virus" explanation for zombies, and the fact that people buy into it, deeply moronic. It's like when they rebooted Spiderman with a "gentically modified" spider instead of a radioactive one--it's no more plausible, but "radioactive" has lost a lot of its aura of superstitious awe/dread with the general public (as has Romero's nerve gas), whereas viruses and gene splicing are still sufficiently spooky. Okay, sometimes it's narratively necessary to do a little hand waving to get on with your premise, but any naturalistic explanation for reanimated corpses is going to be absurd. The heart of the genre is that the natural order has been overturned and reasonable expectations don't apply anymore. The appropriate response to any explanation offered is "Fair enough, now get on with the apocalypse." If you're here to unravel the mystery and see order restored, you wandered into the wrong theater.

The Walking Dead is also one of the more nihilistic examples of an inherently nihilistic genre, which is why I feel any explanation was a mistake. The characters lacking any explanation for their situation is part of the horror. There's not going to be any big medical/epidemiological press for a cure as in WWZ, there's no political commentary on the military-industrial complex as in Romero's films, and the lone relevant fact conveyed by the "explanation"--that everyone reanimates, not just the bitten--could have been shown rather than told in any number of ways. The explanation was a mistake because this show isn't about the zombies, not about beating them and not about what caused them. It's about the survivors, and the fundamental unknowability of our existence, and the tenuousness of the social contract. On top of being unnecessary, the CDC episode was just a travesty: every character interaction, every decision anyone made, the contrived powerpoint presentation, the mad scientist out to end it all with gratuitous explosion included... Season one was plagued by contrived plots, wooden dialogue and stale tropes.

Regardless, there's no inconsistency in a zombie bite that is not the agent of reanimation but is run-of-the-mill deadly (or even extraordinarily deadly). I don't want Morgan Freeman to walk on and present a slideshow about why zombie bites kill. Let's say the same virus that turns a dead brain into a zero-point energy telekinesis engine also produces Komodo dragon venom glands in the host. Satisfied?

Genetic modification and viruses are far more likely explanations, that's why they use them.
Assuming the spider was modified to somehow pass on its genes as well.

I see no real problem with a virus turning people in to zombies. There are drugs which can effectively do it, minus the aggression, but there are diseases that make their host aggressive.

The appropriate response to any explanation offered is "Fair enough, now get on with the apocalypse." If you're here to unravel the mystery and see order restored, you wandered into the wrong theater.

No. Just.... no. There is always the possibility of things being "good" again. Otherwise they would have all killed themselves at the CDC.
There's no real "mystery to unravel" but there is always a sense of hope that they will eventually form a cohesive society that is relatively safe.
It's not that I want to see "order restored" either, I'm just saying that that is an underlying tone.
Understanding the virus is essential if they want even a chance of that. Milton would have done well with trying to figure out why bites kill people even though everyone's infected.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

I feel any explanation was a mistake. The characters lacking any explanation for their situation is part of the horror.

Agree. They should've found out about the unbitten dead becoming reanimated when Shane died and not before.

Originally Posted by Burns

Agree. They should've found out about the unbitten dead becoming reanimated when Shane died and not before.

Uhhhh, that's exactly what happened. Only Rick knew, and the viewers didn't know until he told the gang.
Although there were some hints when Shane commented that the police zombies didn't have bites, and then Daryl saw that the hostage kid didn't have bites.

Originally Posted by tommo

Genetic modification and viruses are far more likely explanations, that's why they use them.
Assuming the spider was modified to somehow pass on its genes as well.

I see no real problem with a virus turning people in to zombies. There are drugs which can effectively do it, minus the aggression, but there are diseases that make their host aggressive.

Wow. Just wow. It's not just the biology that doesn't work here, man, it's the physics. TWD zombies aren't just aggressive, they're decomposed, dismembered, disemboweled meat that produces motion in the absence of energy inputs. They are something gone fundamentally wrong with the world. If a virus is involved, the virus is still magic.

Likewise, no amount of genetic modification will enable a spider bite to remake a mature mammal from the genome outward, any more than any amount of radiation would do the trick. As hand wavery goes, genetic modification hasn't quite lost it's scare factor and therefor its currency, but the reason isn't that it's "more likely" than radiation or chemical exposure to accidentally produce superheroes or monsters. It's just the bogeyman of the day.

Originally Posted by tommo

Milton would have done well with trying to figure out why bites kill people even though everyone's infected.

Why would everyone being infected prevent bites from killing people? Bites killing people is an independent phenomenon from people reanimating. This kind of confusion is one reason they never even should have gone there with the powerpoint when, in all likelihood, the sciencey non-explanation is never going to be relevant to anything in the series ever again. Just establish that everyone with an intact brain turns without using the word "infection." Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, idk.

That would be funny if those guys hadn't been the Gov's hit squad and viewed the townspeople as sheep the whole time. The Gov is their alpha and the only difference between this mass murder and the others they've perpetrated along with him is that they didn't get in any shots this time. They follow him because he does this shit. Personally I found that scene really effective and emotionally realistic.

Why would anyone follow a guy who is so obviously unstable and psychopathic? Especially when he doesn't have anything they need.
He could have turned around and fired on them at any time.
Kill him and you don't lose anything, he's not special, he's not smart, doesn't have any special qualities at all. Plus the army group etc. were just random people, they knew the town people.

Originally Posted by tommo

Why would anyone follow a guy who is so obviously unstable and psychopathic?

You've godwinned the thread by inference.

No, the Nazi's weren't slaughtered by Hitler, and most of them were also psychopaths.

Originally Posted by tommo

No, the Nazi's weren't slaughtered by Hitler, and most of them were also psychopaths.

Lots of Germans were slaughtered by Hitler, including some who had been his supporters, and I have my doubts that most of the population of the country could be diagnosed with a mental illness. Hell, Stalin purged his inner circle on a regular basis without getting deposed. Charismatic people aren't always (perhaps not even often) good people. Getting people to choose their leaders rationally has been an uphill battle since the Paleolithic. The Governor hid his dark side from all but his thugs, and his really dark side from everyone except Milton. As far as most of those townspeople were concerned he was mostly Sheriff Andy from Mayberry with a dose of John Wayne right up until he opened fire.

I thought the finale was weak. I can see why they continued to follow him even after they witnessed that massacre, but why the hell were they so shocked? They obviously knew he was capable, they even helped him commit similar acts. While I found the outcome realistic, I didn't find their reactions equally so. Incredibly disappointed they didn't hint at where they went after that, because they obviously didn't return to Woodbury as Rick was able to clear the place out without any trouble.

And I don't understand why he took them back to the prison. People will argue its because they are protected there, but they obviously aren't. How many times has that place been attacked this season alone? Trucks driven through the front gate, zombies comin in through the hole in the wall as well as complete strangers, if anything they are trapped in there. With a sufficient amount of fuel they could be burned alive, especially if the governator doesn't ram trucks through the front gate this time. They should have taken over Woodbury, it is after all what they miss about the world they lived in, stability, normalcy, peace, community. In my opinion it would have been far more effective an ending if Rick would have just taken over Woodbury, the place the governator had fought and killed for, and the last scene is the governor on the outside of the walls of the establishment he considers his, leaving us to wonder how he is to seek his vengeance. Instead, they are free to pull something out of their asses without giving us any indication as to what it will be.

I am not looking forward to the next season and most likely will not be tuning in week to week like I have been. Still a show worth watching, but I may just wait until the season has completely ended so I can watch it whenever I feel like it.

Originally Posted by tommo

No, the Nazi's weren't slaughtered by Hitler, and most of them were also psychopaths.

Er, no.

Gotta concur tommo, that's a pretty simplistic and caricatured picture of history.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

I didn't have a problem with any of the above.

Spoiler for spoilers:

Kind of like with Merle, I was just happy that they found something to do with an absolutely shit character before offing her (Andrea). It's better than T-dog or Dale got. Also, she did kill the zombie, just not without taking collateral damage. She had a pair of blunt pliers--not exactly ideal for penetrating a freshly dead skull.

I thought the Governor taking everyone down was pretty intense. The look on the actor's face before he opened fire was perfect. Keep in mind that those two guys have been his wetworks crew all along, and standing by or assisting while the Gov does horrible shit is their job. I don't know what's going to happen with all the Woodbury refugees--that's a total departure from the comics, and really not much lines up with the comics anymore.

If anyone has taken over the role Andrea played in the comics, it's Maggie. If anything can sum up TV Andrea's role, it was "Person who makes terrible decisions" and/or "serial traitor." She was looking to defect from the original group with Shane, she turned her back on Michonne for the Gov, and then she kept bouncing back and forth between Woodbury and the prison.

This.

It wasn't the perfect way to end the season, but it was still pretty good. I didn't really like Andrea in season 2 or the first half of season 3, but she started growing on me again by the second half. Damn shame she died, but it was the appropriate way to deal with her character. She had a good run, but the pattern of bad decisions on her part were getting kinda stale. Besides, the whole point of her death was for the sake of an emotional reaction from the viewers who liked her character. Killing characters that no one's attached to is meaningless, killing beloved characters on the other hand - that cuts deep. And that's what the show is all about; not mindless zombies, but humanity falling apart and hoping it can somehow pull itself together against all odds. You're not doing a good job as a writer if your viewers aren't wallowing in a bit of doom and gloom as well. The series is supposed to be bittersweet and the finale got that down to a t (tee?).

The writing has definitly been getting better though. The first season was corny as fuck at times - a stereotypical black guy named "T-Dawg" that spent the first couple episodes talking jive and carrying a doorag...? Merle such a walking trope as well. The characters were pretty flat too, the only reason it didn't stand out too much was because there were so many of them with different personalities. The premise of the show itself outweighed the cons though so we all overlooked them. Second season was great, I know some people complained about it not having enough action... but those people are stoopidz. I know opinions differ, but I think blow-everything-up scenes are lame as shit. And if you think otherwise, you're a doodoo head. The third season was pretty interesting, the characters became more rounded, but it did have it's faults.

The biggest one imo, the fact that walkers were reduced from a genuine threat to a mere nuisance. In the first and second season, you'd see walkers running to their prey. In the third, they were able to waltz by these things like it was nothing - the dead just slowly staggered towards them. The group kind of went into god-mode and started handling zombie hoards like they were nothing, whereas in the first two seasons whenever a walker showed up, it felt like crazy shit was about to go down. In the third, it was more like "... meh."
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As for the Guvnah being followed by his two cronies, I didn't think much of it. He's the leader, they're the henchmen. They didn't shoot him because they're not too attached to the townsfolk. The Guvnah's inner-group always kept to themselves, and they never seemed too concerned about the regular people. Sure they were shocked that he gunned them all down, but why would they try to stop him? The townsfolk had no plan, they would be lost without their leader. Everyone lived vicariously through him, the Guvnah made sure of that.

As for going back to the prison instead of taking over the town, I think the group went that route because it was simply easier to defend. I mean, it's a fucking fortress. Plus it's "home." That being said though, when you consider the fact that it's compromised, the town might have been a better choice. Oh well, I guess the writers needed a way to get rid of all those extra characters and this is probably the most fitting.