Thread: Zeitgesit-Addendum

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...19560256183936

there is another good video. Better than Zietgiest imo.

We're not here to criticize or defend the original zeitgeist. Everyone knows the Jesus myth was borrowed from earlier mythology in order to adapt a new religion in an old culture. It doesn't mean he didn't exist, but it does mean most of that bullshit didn't happen. There are far better sources than Zeitgeist if you want to read about Jesus.

We're also not here to talk about the 9/11 conspiracy. We all know he did not sufficiently prove 9/11 was a conspiracy in his first film.

If you want to criticize, this is about economics. Criticize how it's impossible to take money out of our system, or something like that. Criticize how the only way to achieve his goals is for a world wide labor strike, and boycotting the bad companies will not be enough. Don't post random bullshit about the last zeitgeist.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...19560256183936

there is another good video. Better than Zietgiest imo.

I agree, this one backs itself up with even more facts and figures. I enjoyed watching this, despite is was made in like 96 or 97? We are starting to witness a world wide depression as this movie states.

To bad the venus project will never work. People would still have emotions and egos. Not to mention there would still be diffrent social levels and religions which in any utopian would be a cause for disaster. Really quite an absurd idea.

My only question for people who think the Venus project would work: Who decides how resources are allocated, and based on what? Simple questions. Good luck answering them.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

My only question for people who think the Venus project would work: Who decides how resources are allocated, and based on what? Simple questions. Good luck answering them.

Answer from the zeitgeist movement site :

Firstly, the idea is to over time eliminate greed and economic abuse through education, which is largely caused by our society's ideals today.

"The decisions are arrived at by the introduction of newer technologies and the carrying capacity of the earth. Computers could provide this information with electronic sensors throughout the entire industrial, physical complex." (from here)

In other words, distribution centres will be managed by a automated load balancing system (computers/machines), and non-greedy society is free to take whatever they need from those centres.

See Q: How is the distribution of food and/or other objects of desire, like telephones or computers or book?

The thing that I was most interested in, is what incentives would people have to work?
Their answer is here: http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq-22.htm

And after thinking about it... we aren't naturally lazy creatures. At least not in the couch potato sense.
Think about when you were a kid. You didn't laze around all day - you got up and went outside to play. Without fail.
People become couch potatoes because of our early 'training'

I still think this is near-impossible to bring about. But as someone said, worth a shot.

Originally Posted by Explosions In the Sky

Not to mention there would still be diffrent social levels and religions which in any utopian would be a cause for disaster

From the venus project site...

The Venus Project is not a Utopian concept. We do not believe in the erroneous notion of a utopian society. There is no such thing. Societies are always in a state of transition. We propose an alternative direction, which addresses the causes of many of our
problems. There are no final frontiers for human and technological achievement - it will always undergo change. Even if we can design a society having all of the modifications to improve the lives of people and protect the environment we will still be at the beginning of the next phase

As for elitism, their concept is more like open-source software. There's no master/slave relationship there. Only responsibilities and knowledge to be applied.
From the venus project site: "the measure of success would be based upon the fulfillment of one’s individual pursuits rather than the acquisition of wealth, property, and power"

I've been reading all over the internet about these movies. One of these
days I'll have to check them out.

I am a big supporter for this movement.

You would have to be literally crazy to not agree with the points made in this movie.

If you're for making this world a better place than you will love this movie.

Originally Posted by Explosions In the Sky

To bad the venus project will never work. People would still have emotions and egos. Not to mention there would still be diffrent social levels and religions which in any utopian would be a cause for disaster. Really quite an absurd idea.

Think about it though: marxism, communism, and democracy government styles have never existed 100% (yes America) and has never existed really. China is very far from ever being "communist" and America is not a democracy when only 1% of the population has complete power over everything including peoples lives at their disposal in war. The constitution itself has been broken and injustice and corruption have gone unnoticed.

The Venus project would be the biggest watershed moment in human history by practically turning the tables in a whole 180 direction. Of course its impossible, because the people in power don't want that to happen, because power is their weapon not the better good for the world.

After mulling over the Venus Project some more, I've started to put my finger on what I think are the real flaws in it.

The biggest one I see, is that his humanitarian approach, insistence in the lack of 'human nature' and vision of no laws or police is far too idealistic.

Why?

Well lust is a part of our nature, and is not a result of environmental nurturing.
It's just part of our biological makeup and sexual drive for reproductive purposes.

So consider this:
Bob has the hots for Mary, who is Jim's wife. One day Bob can't restrain himself and flirts with Mary, who reciprocates.
Jim finds out, goes into a complete rage and doesn't know how to handle it, and Bob dies in a pool of blood.

Is this an avoidable situation through the efforts of fixing society?
I think not, honestly. It's a side effect of our desires.

Originally Posted by Placebo

After mulling over the Venus Project some more, I've started to put my finger on what I think are the real flaws in it.

The biggest one I see, is that his humanitarian approach, insistence in the lack of 'human nature' and vision of no laws or police is far too idealistic.

Why?

Well lust is a part of our nature, and is not a result of environmental nurturing.
It's just part of our biological makeup and sexual drive for reproductive purposes.

So consider this:
Bob has the hots for Mary, who is Jim's wife. One day Bob can't restrain himself and flirts with Mary, who reciprocates.
Jim finds out, goes into a complete rage and doesn't know how to handle it, and Bob dies in a pool of blood.

Is this an avoidable situation through the efforts of fixing society?
I think not, honestly. It's a side effect of our desires.

you completely misunderstood the video then. It only pointed out that people wouldn't have to break laws if the Venus project would be successful and imported into our everyday lives. It clearly did not advocate an anarchist state.

Firstly, I haven't actually watched the movie yet, only read the websites
Secondly, I understand that, but what I'm saying is that ideal can never happen.
How will their project cause people to never break a law in a fit of passion ?

Their website is very explicit that there is no such thing as 'human nature'
And I'm saying they're wrong. I dig chicks. That's part of my human nature.

If you see the movie, you will see that they only compare human nature to everything that surrounds us. They go into the "hippy zone" for a couple minutes when they explain that we are made up of stars as is everything on our planet.

The video even explains that there is no such thing as perfect, but that there are other ways at looking at how our world could be other than the one that we live in and the one that keeps digging its own ditch more and more. The Venus project would really be a watershed project, but its obviously what this world needs right now with all the poverty and corruption and the deterioration of the world as we know it and one where the poverty will only grow as it has been.

Thats not the only way our news stations throw us off guard though, they literally are brainwashing us to accept the world as it is.

Originally Posted by Placebo

After mulling over the Venus Project some more, I've started to put my finger on what I think are the real flaws in it.

The biggest one I see, is that his humanitarian approach, insistence in the lack of 'human nature' and vision of no laws or police is far too idealistic.

Why?

Well lust is a part of our nature, and is not a result of environmental nurturing.
It's just part of our biological makeup and sexual drive for reproductive purposes.

So consider this:
Bob has the hots for Mary, who is Jim's wife. One day Bob can't restrain himself and flirts with Mary, who reciprocates.
Jim finds out, goes into a complete rage and doesn't know how to handle it, and Bob dies in a pool of blood.

.

yes but, that's because there's no real education concerning handling desires for the opposite sex. If bob wasn't such a chump. he'd go for a single girl. But because he's a chump he's too uneducated to see other options, he does something dumb. Mary isn't the only hot woman on the planet. they are everywhere!

Maybe Mary is the only chick he really gets to see in his daily affairs. Surely you can imagine a situation that just gets out of hand. Not because he 'chose' Mary, just cos she was around and no other hot chicks were
EDIT: Unless you're imagining a society where women are never in situations like this?

Here's how a system with no laws would function. People having the desire to kill other people would be considered like a mental disease. I really think it is, but in a different sense than the word is normally used.

What we call the problem doesn't matter. What matters is adressing the situation properly. In what way does the prison system do anything to solve the problem of crime? We currently are so blinded by vengence that rather than solve the problem we punish people. People generally commit crimes for 2 reasons. Anger or vengence, or out of desperation. Punishment does not solve any of those problems. If people have issues with anger or vengence then they need to learn how to deal with those issues. They need help. And people in a situation of desperation need help getting themselves out of that situation.

Now I am not trying to say that society is ready for something like this, we can't just get rid of laws and prisons tommarrow. But it is time we started looking at this as something to work towards. We need to fix the justice system in america. No more prohibition. It makes absolutely no sense, and is the main cause of crime in america.

True, you will never end people cheating on each other, but there really aren't any laws against that now.

In principle, I agree with treating the problems instead of shoving them into a corner.

I've got another practical question... how would it be decided who gets land with an ocean view, and who doesn't?
Or in exact terms, how would living resources be allocated such that people would be happy about it?

resources will be delt with by machines, but another problem you pose here is the growing population (except for Russia, which happens to be plumeting)

I could care less about a house next to the beach, there are plenty of other beautiful places I can think of that I would rather live by.

Regardless whether it's machines or not... somebody has to program the machines. So the algorithm is somebody's doing.
Machines are not some magical decision maker that removes humans from the equation - because somebody needs to 'tell' the machine what to do.
Who decides that?

of course, but even machines these days are made to fix other machines.

Who should decide how they are programed?! whoever does it best. simple as that really. Thats pretty much how the industry works today anyhow.

No, no .. that's not true. The people who do it are the ones that can eliminate the competition.
That doesn't necessarily mean they're 'better' perse
But that's all about capitalism once again

BTW, this made me think of Edison - who was supposedly a big inventor. The truth is far different - he was just a very good businessman.

wha? machine maintenance costs a lot cheaper than hiring humans, and they do the job much faster and even better for a lot of things.

I hope they aren't dealt by machines. Machines are up to no good I tell ya!

BUt seriously, like I've said (in anohter thread I think), I would think that we would either have to keep the system of money to some degree if we want to have a stateless society. I would say choice land would have to be bought, but decent(like middle classish) homes should be availiable to all. Or at least nice appartments. But this sort of thing would be along way off in my opinion.

But that's just what I think. I'm not that big on resource based economy. I just like anarcho capitalism.

France is truer to capitalism than America will ever be (so much for "land of the free").

I have no problem with the Venus project it basically benefits everybody just as much. I'm all for a real Venus/Communist country. And you would be too if you thought this kind of project would work, because you would most likely be doing better off than you are now, not to mention everybody else.