Officers are supposed to be authorized to use one level of force above the threat, no more. At least that's what I was taught in Junior Police Academy (a semester-long class offered at my old middleschool). |
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So, there is a story that is back in the news, about a man who was shot by police officers, when "attempting to run them over with his (stolen) SUV." The officers fired over 130 rounds to "neutralize the threat", which is what they are trained to do. I understand that a situation such as this is harrowing, and unpredictable, and the objective of "neutralizing the threat" is a just one. |
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Last edited by Oneironaut Zero; 09-17-2010 at 12:17 AM.
Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
Officers are supposed to be authorized to use one level of force above the threat, no more. At least that's what I was taught in Junior Police Academy (a semester-long class offered at my old middleschool). |
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I understand the rule. What I'm asking is whether or not it's right to use the shoot to kill parameter as the immediate successor to threat of use of force. |
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Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
I'm pretty sure that police officers are trained to make "centre of mass" (chest) shots, both because the chest is the largest target and offers the most stopping power. That being said, the distance between a chest and an arm shot at distance on a moving target with a pistol is VERY small (cops are good shots, but they're not necessarily expert marksmen), and I think that if an officer is at the point where he will shoot the perp, he'd rather kill him than miss him entirely. |
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Well, when a clip can be emptied in less than ten seconds, don't you think that raises the chance that a cop can make a non-lethal shot? |
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Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
Hmm I remember that, and I was kind of surprised when they killed him in the end. I guess it's forgivable though, he was in the military so who knew if he had a weapon or even knew how to use the tank's weapons. The cops also couldn't know for sure if the tank was completely immobilized and probably didn't want to risk any officers being crushed. I definitely wouldn't have accused any of the cops of anything criminal. |
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I suppose. But - like the guy in the tank - many of the people that do these things are mentally ill. I understand that it's a "preserve the innocent over the offender" paradigm, but still... |
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Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
Police shoot dogs all the time, often when the dog is in its own backyard. Its ridiculous when police shoot animals that are in their own home. They should be trained to look into a persons yard before going into it. In fact, it doesn't even require any training. You have to be a completely idiot to end up in someone's yard and not know there is a big dog inside of it, until its to late and its impossible for you to escape. |
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When cops shoot at a person, they shoot to kill, always. They shoot to kill only when deadly force is being used. When you advance upon another person who has done nothing to you with a knife with the intent of doing that person harm, your life is forfeit. |
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I know this, but it is this that I disagree with. I believe that there are certain situations which are avoidable. Many crimes of passion are not the actions of a person who 'doesn't deserve to live anymore.' I'm not pardoning these people, mind you. I'm merely stating that a bad (sometimes fluke) decision in the heat of the moment is not always reason enough to end a person's life. |
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Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
Well what do you suggest? Policemen are already supposed to only use their guns in the most dire of circumstances. The kinds of circumstances where any hesitation on their part would be neglecting to fulfill their mandate to protect the innocent. I think that most police departments would rather kill any number of perps than have even a single innocent person die because they hesitated. That some of the perps are mentally ill is regrettable, but it doesn't make them any less dangerous. |
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Police officers, like everyone else, have different ways of thinking, and as such, in different threatening scenarios they weren't trained for, they each might have different answers to what they consider the problem. Even in scenarios they were trained for, when danger is presented, their ethical judgment can get hindered from the stress involved. Also, the appropriate protocol for a given situation is often ignored because people aren't, in a vague sense, ethically perfect. |
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Last edited by malac; 09-17-2010 at 05:20 AM.
I stomp on your ideas.
I know. I do see your point (intended to Spart, but I understand your point as well, malac). But I think there is also a responsibility to make our policemen/women more than just killing machines. Yes, I know they teach you not to hesitate. Yes, I know they teach you to only use deadly force "when necessary," but I think there is a danger behind those teachings, when it's shown that they so often bleed over into not-imminently-deadly situations. These are not robots. They are men and women in uniform. Believe me, I have a high level of respect for cops (which are starkly different from "pigs", which I fucking hate), but I do think that they should be better trained to assess a deadly situation. If that means they need to be better armed/armored, then so be it. But situations like "we killed him because it was impossible to know if he had a weapon on him or not" (such as the guy in the tank, once again), simply should not happen, and it happens all too often. (See the Amadou Diallo shooting, for one.) |
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Last edited by Oneironaut Zero; 09-17-2010 at 05:24 AM.
Dream Journal: Dreamwalker Chronicles Latest Entry: 01/02/2016 - "Hallway to Haven" (Lucid)(Or see the very best of my journal entries @ dreamwalkerchronicles.blogspot)
Might just be a byproduct of how much action and violent crime police have seen in the US. They're probably harsher if they get shot at or lose buddies on a regular basis or something. There's also probably a ton of successful arrests for every police killing (when you consider how many times a cop probably has a perp at gunpoint each day in the US). Police killings are a VERY rare event in Canada so I don't think their training is an issue here. |
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I do think excessive force is used fairly often. However, with the exception of the dog example, all of those situations seem justifiable times to kill. |
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Paul is Dead
I think police officers should be required to have a blackbelt at minimum. It's not exactly hard to take a knife away from someone. Any of my students can do it quiet easily. |
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But that guy may very well be a good scrapper. When you get in mellee combat, the better trained person should win. but really it could go either way. You don't know what else that guy is packing or what kind of drugs he is on. It would be nice if our cops were better at hand to hand, but the risk involved and the expense of two-four years hand to hand training... Where I a cop and someone threatened me with a knife I would give him every chance to put the knife down. If he didn't, I would go for an arm or leg. If he rushed me, you better believe I am putting a shot through his lungs. I won't risk getting stabbed by trusting that I am a better fighter than him. |
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Last edited by spockman; 09-17-2010 at 05:47 PM.
Paul is Dead
I've fought a few cops in my MMA days. There brand of martial arts is a joke, including their grappling. It's worse than the US military's. |
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IMO if the suspect is guilty, no force is excessive... outside of course of abuse, torture etc. But if a guy robs an old lady just shoot him. I like the Old West style of Justice. If someone was guilty of something they'd rough him up, shoot him, hang him or whatever depending on the crime. We're too easy on criminals, and that's why it's soo bad and getting worse. With this economy, and the way everything is going it's only gonna get worse. We need to make examples of people. If you turned on the news everyday and saw "Man robs bank, get beaten to pulp, then hanged." a lot less people would rob banks. If they're guilty, punish them. |
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The problem with going back to mob justice is that innocent people get hurt and some times even killed. |
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