Thread: ABORTION: Where do you stand?

Wasn't a joke, I was trying to prove a point . Something, no matter how insignificant, is better than nothing.

But... dividing by zero... if undefined is assumed to be infinite... "infinitely more important"... Gah, I thought I had finally wrapped my head around a math joke. D: Anyways, I'm straying from the topic.

Btw, what happened to the last abortion thread? Didn't we have one with like a fuckload of pages of discussion?

Abortion. I predict that this is going be one of the longest running threads on DV.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Abortion. I predict that this is going be one of the longest running threads on DV.

It's an issue that can contain politics, religion, and ethics. It's all kinds of long running.

Plus it's the sort of thing only women care about, and they can talk for forever, right guys?

I used to be pro-choice, until I watched a few abortions through ultrasound.
As the suction tube was sucking up the babies' bodies, they would squirm, and push themselves against the sides of the uteris, trying to get away.

Now I am undecided.

I am definitively pro abortion, and I do not view abortion as immoral. There are mainly two things that together cause me to have this opinion.

First and foremost I consider a human-being's right to make choices about their own life one of the most important, basic human rights that exist. In this context, that means that a woman has an immutable right to make choices about her own body, which would include aborting an unwanted fetus. And before someone makes the argument, this does not apply to the fetus. It does not have the ability to make a choice.

Secondly a fetus is not a person. As has been stated it does not properly experience the world. It does not have memories. Thus killing a fetus isn't murder. The potential to be a person simply doesn't count.
(An interesting quirk: If a pregnant woman were to damage the fetus due to neglect (for instance by knowingly ingesting alcohol while pregnant), that would be an almost unforgivable offense if intending to let the fetus live, because it would cause suffering when the fetus became a person.)

Thus the consideration for the woman simply outweighs the slight immorality of killing a living thing by so much that it's not immoral.

Also, @OP: Cool down a bit. You're currently seem to be insulting almost everyone who disagrees with you. It does not make for a good discussion.

I'm pro choice. As long the fetus doesn't suffer, killing it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Really, I don't really care about a child up until it starts to develop a personality, at which point I consider it should have rights granted to it, and would consider it murder if it were killed deliberately.

When it comes to abortion, in my opinion a fetus has no intrinsic right to utilise a mother's body for nourishment, even if I were to grant it the rights of a person, which I don't. See the violinist thought experiment.

I've always had a hard time about this. I couldn't have one even if i wanted to.

Monster, would appreciate if you could follow up from the first page; I asked why having periods is okay, you said things should just run their natural course, I replied with:

Originally Posted by Xei

Can you explain how deciding not to get pregnant when there is no fertilised egg in your body is letting things run their natural course, but deciding not to get pregnant when there is a fertilised egg in your body is not? Either nature includes human decisions or it doesn't. With no ill intent towards your trauma: the vast majority of people do not have pregnancy forced upon them by external events.

Originally Posted by sloth

I used to be pro-choice, until I watched a few abortions through ultrasound.
As the suction tube was sucking up the babies' bodies, they would squirm, and push themselves against the sides of the uteris, trying to get away.

Now I am undecided.

Confused. Are you sure it wasn't a propaganda film? I'm sure it was moving around because of the device itself creating a current. Most aborted fetuses are the size of a peanut, they have no limbs and certainly can't swim, as they have no brain yet. A later abortion still won't swim away (at least not purposefully,) as even though it may have a brain at the time, it's not sentient, nor can it see. That doesn't happen until third trimester. Most likely what you were seeing was it reacting to the ultrasound itself, not the vaccuum. All fetuses react to ultrasound, that is why you aren't supposed to do it very often.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Confused. Are you sure it wasn't a propaganda film? I'm sure it was moving around because of the device itself creating a current. Most aborted fetuses are the size of a peanut, they have no limbs and certainly can't swim, as they have no brain yet. A later abortion still won't swim away (at least not purposefully,) as even though it may have a brain at the time, it's not sentient, nor can it see. That doesn't happen until third trimester. Most likely what you were seeing was it reacting to the ultrasound itself, not the vaccuum. All fetuses react to ultrasound, that is why you aren't supposed to do it very often.

I'm pretty sure it WAS an... at least biased film.
Your post makes me feel a little better, though I'm still not sure what I saw. It was a large fetus (all three videos), and did have limbs.
I hope you are correct.

three months maximum, and I'm ok. more than three months... well if you didn't want the damn baby why the hell didn't you abort it earlier than three months?

(i know this is a really light response but i'll debate if someone attacks my viewpoint)

Originally Posted by sloth

I'm pretty sure it WAS an... at least biased film.
Your post makes me feel a little better, though I'm still not sure what I saw. It was a large fetus (all three videos), and did have limbs.
I hope you are correct.

Limbs don't happen until second trimester. Well, they are there, but don't really look like limbs, and certainly can't be used for swimming. It wasn't self-aware, and it can't feel or see anything. Large fetuses are a minority of abortions, most are tiny. Peanut size, because most people get them as soon as they find out. In the amount of time it takes a woman to miss her period, the fetus is just a tiny collection of stem cells.

Those large fetuses were probably shown just to make it look more human in a propaganda film. Those are usually aborted because the baby is causing serious health problems for the mother, but of course a propaganda film won't mention that, they want you to think that's what all aborted fetuses look like.

This is what a fetus looks like at 2 months, which is when most are performed.

It's smaller than your thumb, has little to no organs, they eyes don't work, there is little to no brain matter (months from functioning), no skin, no nerves... It's mostly still stem cells.

Hoo boy, Indeed a heated topic. Thought I might chime in as I think learning about complex issues such as these are important to increase ones understanding. Where to begin.. Ill try to address some of the posts made. I think the author of this thread thinks abortion is unnatural because it does not occur in nature such as with animals (although I certainly dont claim to know about all animals). I think this is a real question about morals, which I find more and more people lacking as I learn more about the world. Of course, an individuals freedom of choice is very important, its up to the individual to decide if they consider a fetus or a person, or if its murder, etc. Same thing applies with the "its her body" statement, while the fetus is Inside the womans body, its is certainly NOT her or a body part like an arm, it is a potential living being which is growing inside her.

Much of this debate depends on what the person defines "life." Most people define people as animals whos concoiusness and traits are based off neurological and gentic processess (to which science has only begun to understand). Likewise science assumes that the universe was made completely randomly because of limited understanding (uncertainity principle, etc) and this there is no "meaning to life". II see people who think like this as incapable of make moral decisions in the first place. If you take out the point of life and its meaning, all that left are indeed selfish animals who do whatever they want simply because they can or its "their body, etc" This is actually due to education of Secular Humanist "values" in public education that has been going on for years.

My stance- This is a very tricky topic, I would have to say I am against abortion except in extraneous circumstances (such as rape, an 11-13 year old gril getting pregnant, etc) honestly I wish people were intelligent enough to simply use a condom if they dont want kids, it simply by complete lack of forethought and morals that so many abortions are needed in the first place (a condom breaking, bad birth control are exception). Common sense folks, please when making any decsion- make an informed one. If more people did that we would live in a better world. Remember, you cant have kids if you dont have sex, if you think it would be a hard decision then dont do it at all or at least spend some money to get some condoms... geez.

Honestly I dont think I could make a perfect decsion unless I knew when the fetus gets the soul (probably the moment before birth).

I think that we should look at issues wose than this those. Look how we treat other already living autonomous people everyday, its a deplorable situation. Wars over fuel and fewer and fwer natural rescources, wars in general.

You know what I think most people can agree on? Addressing the issues of the parents abandoning babies or throwing them away. That I think is MUCH worse, because without a doubt the baby is already alive and sentient.

Good day everyone, keep thinking

-Evan

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Limbs don't happen until second trimester. Well, they are there, but don't really look like limbs, and certainly can't be used for swimming. It wasn't self-aware, and it can't feel or see anything. Large fetuses are a minority of abortions, most are tiny. Peanut size, because most people get them as soon as they find out. In the amount of time it takes a woman to miss her period, the fetus is just a tiny collection of stem cells.

Those large fetuses were probably shown just to make it look more human in a propaganda film. Those are usually aborted because the baby is causing serious health problems for the mother, but of course a propaganda film won't mention that, they want you to think that's what all aborted fetuses look like.

This is what a fetus looks like at 2 months, which is when most are performed.

It's smaller than your thumb, has little to no organs, they eyes don't work, there is little to no brain matter, no skin, no nerves... It's mostly still stem cells.

I hope you're right.

I think the real problem is that it has a large head and beady black eyes, which makes it CUTE. Just like people who will fight to the DEATH to defend an adorable kitty cat, but have no problems eating a lobster (which looks like a space mutant) or squashing a spider (which is ICKY, as opposed to CUTE). I seriously believe that if they didn't look so adorable with their tiny underdeveloped hands, that this would be much, much less of a debate.

Anyone who would be willing to force someone who's been raped to carry a child to term, but not willing to pay extra taxes to help her raise the child (or to sponsor more adoption clinics) is not very serious about the argument, and has only thought it through to the point where it agrees with their gut feeling. Beyond that, ALL the rationalization about when is or isn't it human, etc. are just pointless rationalizations. If you don't put your money where your mouth is, you are not pro-life, but merely anti-choice.

Originally Posted by Replicon

which makes it CUTE.

This is incorrect.
lol
Fetuses look creepy.

I am undecided in this respect, but I think its ok if the mothers health was in great jeopardy (Like making her crippled or dying) Other then that I have no real opinion on it.

i barely read any of these posts buuut

fetuses are the most creepiest demented thing i have ever seen

I guess if it is as you say, Ninja, I am entirely pro-choice.
Human life NEVER exists without some kind of choice by someone.

Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Alright, let's just say we're taking that study as the absolute truth. So, fetuses can feel pain at 26 weeks. So you're saying that when I kill my unborn child at 40 weeks, it's not going to feel pain? Bullshit. And I'm allowed to kill it then, according to many people who have responded to this thread. What, exactly, was your point with that?

I hope you didn't just read the first summary point ("The neuroanatomical system for pain can be considered complete by 26 weeks' gestation.") and decided that it means "fetuses can feel pain at 26 weeks."

So, we don't have souls, according to you. Good to know. Also, the only reason it's wrong to kill someone is because society frowns upon it and it wouldn't make us feel "good", although I might argue with you on that last part. Now, you are certainly ending a life without consent when you have an abortion. Oh, but wait...a fetus isn't a real person, right? Okay...so let me just make sure I've got this down. When, exactly, is a fetus considered a "person" to you?

I'm gonna have to draw the line at birth like Spartiate. But seriously, reread my first post in this thread and don't start thinking I'm a crazed abortion freak. If one should have an abortion, it should be done fairly early, mainly because there's no point in carrying a fetus for long if one decides they don't want a baby. Otherwise I'd advocate just having the baby and putting it up for adoption. Of course, the other option is to bypass all of that and just not get knocked up in the first place.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

I'm gonna have to draw the line at birth like Spartiate. But seriously, reread my first post in this thread and don't start thinking I'm a crazed abortion freak. If one should have an abortion, it should be done fairly early, mainly because there's no point in carrying a fetus for long if one decides they don't want a baby. Otherwise I'd advocate just having the baby and putting it up for adoption. Of course, the other option is to bypass all of that and just not get knocked up in the first place.

Oh my God! this guy actually does have a heart! Dude, I'm proud of you Keep up the good work, there's lots of work to be done, but we'll get there
tiny steps twinkle toes, tiny steps...

You could've posted that in the first page, you know. My first post was pretty clear.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

You could've posted that in the first page, you know. My first post was pretty clear.

I don't watch every post you make. Just happened to catch this one and figured I'd post what I felt about it.