Thread: What Would You Do....

Originally Posted by Xei

Why do both Savy and Juroara want to portray the issue as being, 'women shouldn't be forced to have sex with men'?

Seriously that's quite the fucking strawman, insinuating that men think rape should be legalised.

How about you try an honest argument?

How about not putting words in my mouth?
No need to be catty.

I just really don't see anything wrong with what she said.
Okay, maybe it's a bit of a leap to immediately assume he was being sexual or maybe it's a bit silly to be offended that a man would have a sexual interest in a woman when obviously that's completely natural.

BUT, do you honestly think that warrants the kind of response she's getting? She's not a silly bitch, she's a very intelligent woman and she has the right to talk about whatever the hell she wants on her channel. I didn't get the feel that she was "making a big deal of it" at all. She was just telling a little story about a situation that made her uncomfortable. And really, I think most women would feel uncomfortable in a situation like that. Is that wrong? No, I don't think so. I think people are allowed to feel whatever they like.

I just find this entire situation ridiculous. She hasn't done anything deserving such a reaction.

Posted by: Richard Dawkins Author Profile Page | July 2, 2011 11:35 AM

No I wasn't making that argument. Here's the argument I was making. The man in the elevator didn't physically touch her, didn't attempt to bar her way out of the elevator, didn't even use foul language at her. He spoke some words to her. Just words. She no doubt replied with words. That was that. Words. Only words, and apparently quite polite words at that.

If she felt his behaviour was creepy, that was her privilege, just as it was the Catholics' privilege to feel offended and hurt when PZ nailed the cracker. PZ didn't physically strike any Catholics. All he did was nail a wafer, and he was absolutely right to do so because the heightened value of the wafer was a fantasy in the minds of the offended Catholics. Similarly, Rebecca's feeling that the man's proposition was 'creepy' was her own interpretation of his behaviour, presumably not his. She was probably offended to about the same extent as I am offended if a man gets into an elevator with me chewing gum. But he does me no physical damage and I simply grin and bear it until either I or he gets out of the elevator. It would be different if he physically attacked me.

Muslim women suffer physically from misogyny, their lives are substantially damaged by religiously inspired misogyny. Not just words, real deeds, painful, physical deeds, physical privations, legally sanctioned demeanings. The equivalent would be if PZ had nailed not a cracker but a Catholic. Then they'd have had good reason to complain.

Richard

Why this ______ is getting Richard Dawkin's attention is beyond belief. He's not alone though, apparently the entire atheist community is having a field day over her video. Anyway, I thought his comment was a nice, toned down "Who the fuck cares? You're overreacting" post.

Oh, and for what it's worth.. stupid feminists are labeling Richard Dawkins a misogynist for the above post. Yep, for the post above. And they're staging boycotts of his materials.

Ayurp.

Originally Posted by Savy

I just really don't see anything wrong with what she said.
Okay, maybe it's a bit of a leap to immediately assume he was being sexual or maybe it's a bit silly to be offended that a man would have a sexual interest in a woman when obviously that's completely natural.

BUT, do you honestly think that warrants the kind of response she's getting? She's not a silly bitch, she's a very intelligent woman and she has the right to talk about whatever the hell she wants on her channel. I didn't get the feel that she was "making a big deal of it" at all. She was just telling a little story about a situation that made her uncomfortable. And really, I think most women would feel uncomfortable in a situation like that. Is that wrong? No, I don't think so. I think people are allowed to feel whatever they like.

I just find this entire situation ridiculous. She hasn't done anything deserving such a reaction.

I agree! People, we have entered the blogging age. My mom has a facebook! My MOM has a facebook.

So maybe she said something like "OMG don't be like that guys its weird and creepy! OMG!", it doesn't mean she's going to DC to inhibit the rights of men. She's just......blogging. That's it, there's really nothing else to it.

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Lets change the situation. Lets say a woman asks a man to join her for coffee at 4 in the morning... oh wait Xei already brought this up. Funny how the controversy dissolves when the roles are reversed. I am an introvert and you do not speak for me. I would be positively delighted if a random stranger showed interest me based on my physical appearance.

That's because you're a man. It's an entirely different world for men and women in regards to gender politics (the way it is for now). A man can go out about town, dressed pretty much any way he wants, and not get raped, fear rape or get blamed for the rare chance of it. Men don't fear that the women hitting on them might rape them. Women are usually smaller, weaker and not as aggressive. Usually. That's just biology. So of course you would have no problem with it. Put yourself in a woman's shoes and the circumstances are a little bit different (or at least commonly presumed as much).

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Why this ______ is getting Richard Dawkin's attention is beyond belief. He's not alone though, apparently the entire atheist community is having a field day over her video. Anyway, I thought his comment was a nice, toned down "Who the fuck cares? You're overreacting" post.

Oh, and for what it's worth.. stupid feminists are labeling Richard Dawkins a misogynist for the above post. Yep, for the post above. And they're staging boycotts of his materials.

Ayurp.

The feminists are having a problem with him because they feel that he's USING a random hypothetical Muslim woman merely for the purpose of shutting a western woman up and putting her in her "place", not because he actually cares about any women's problems. I don't think it's particularly valid... I think he brought up a good point, that she's being particularly prudish over a light incident when we should be focusing our humanist energies on REAL problems.

By the way, his initial response was a parody letter to a Muslim woman, and not as civil. I can't find that written out anywhere for some stupid reason, so here's a spoof of it someone wrote that I found amusing:

Dear Muslima;

There's a woman here in the Western world who seems to have gotten some people upset over an incident with a young man in an elevator. Afterwards, she made a vlog post that basically said, "um, guys--I find this particular behavior a little creepy and unsettling, given the specific circumstances. Try not to do this sort of thing, could you?"

I've decided to use the life experiences you've had as a Third-World Muslim woman as a weapon with which to deride and belittle this uppity Western woman. I think of the things you endure, Muslima--things like your head-to-toe body covering, your lack of freedom, the denial of your education, the rapes and the honor killings of your sisters and daughters, your forced marriage and your capricious, male-only divorce laws, the fact that your children are the sole property of your husband--as weapons I can use in an effort to silence another woman, whose complaint I find petty and unacceptable.

It should be obvious that because other women in the world have a more difficult time with equal rights and equal treatment, this spoiled Western woman should just shut up and deal. I'm sure you won't mind your pain and your own struggle for equality being used in this ironic manner. Not, of course, that I plan to ask you.


All the best,
Dick

Originally Posted by tommo

That's the thing. Skeptics are supposed to have some sort of rational way of thinking. That's the definition, basically.
To be a feminist and a skeptic is just kind of ridiculous. And to tell guys to not express their innate, genetic desires is telling
them to deny their only real purpose in life. To fuck. She obviously is not a very good skeptic, if she didn't realise the similarities to
catholicism in what she's saying.

What? Feminism= the belief that women are of equal value to men, not inferior or subordinate, and should be treated as such. How does that clash with rational thinking? There are also feminists who have very liberal ideas about sex (even feminist prostitutes, or "sex workers"), but not her obviously.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

By the way, his initial response was a parody letter to a Muslim woman, and not as civil. I can't find that written out anywhere for some stupid reason, so here's a spoof of it someone wrote that I found amusing:

Dear Muslima;

There's a woman here in the Western world who seems to have gotten some people upset over an incident with a young man in an elevator. Afterwards, she made a vlog post that basically said, "um, guys--I find this particular behavior a little creepy and unsettling, given the specific circumstances. Try not to do this sort of thing, could you?"

I've decided to use the life experiences you've had as a Third-World Muslim woman as a weapon with which to deride and belittle this uppity Western woman. I think of the things you endure, Muslima--things like your head-to-toe body covering, your lack of freedom, the denial of your education, the rapes and the honor killings of your sisters and daughters, your forced marriage and your capricious, male-only divorce laws, the fact that your children are the sole property of your husband--as weapons I can use in an effort to silence another woman, whose complaint I find petty and unacceptable.

It should be obvious that because other women in the world have a more difficult time with equal rights and equal treatment, this spoiled Western woman should just shut up and deal. I'm sure you won't mind your pain and your own struggle for equality being used in this ironic manner. Not, of course, that I plan to ask you.


All the best,
Dick

Posted by: Richard Dawkins Author Profile Page | July 2, 2011 11:11 AM

Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don't tell me yet again, I know you aren't allowed to drive a car, and you can't leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you'll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep"chick", and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn't lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

I still don't see anything wrong with Richard's original post. It wasn't so much about him parodying a muslim woman, (which he didn't do) as much as it was about him putting into perspective what women in bondaged places have to deal with compared to the gripes of a western woman for being invited to coffee at 4 am.. in an elevator. Better question. What the hell was she doing in an elevator at 4 am anyway? Some people are just night owls. I think the gentleman may have assumed that she was a night owl as well.

What really concerns me though, is why there are women sitting around a table cackling at a man's chopped off penis JUST because he filed for divorce from his wife.



I was really appalled when I saw a clip of this on the amazing atheist because you have an audience of women cackling at a mans chopped off penis JUST BECAUSE HE FILED FOR DIVORCE FROM HIS WIFE.

Whereas if it was jay leno and it was about a man who sliced off his wifes breasts and clitoris and threw that in the garbage disposal.. you wouldn't hear a single man laughing in the audience.

What the fuck is wrong here?

Back on topic. I don't think Richard was out of line. He used an extreme to bring the subject into perspective.