Thread: Insight - How can a drug teach?

I've heard many people talk about having insightful and profound spiritual experiences through the use of psychedelics. This is certainly a potential with such drugs, but this misses the real point; the core of such benefits usually sought by trippers is the fact that psychedelics alter our approach to the world around us in such a way as to sometimes provide that gentle push - or shove - in the right direction needed to fully attain an insight - about our world, our relationships, or ourselves.

I just stumbled upon an excellent article discussing how psychedelics can help to drive home certain insights:

Insight « Michael Vipperman

It's sort of a two sided coin. On the one hand our awareness is so bottle-necked in our sober state of mind that it's very difficult to see things as they are without psychedelics. On the other hand one takes their mind a LOT more seriously. Everything is intensified, including one's emotions and imagination. Because of these stronger emotional ties, one's thoughts can cause turmoil and worry to no end if they take them too seriously. When you're exploring experience beyond the consistent world, exploring farther out does not mean you're getting closer to God, it just means your spiraling into even more remote locales of the imagination. Truth is felt through the realization of truth and sober works just fine for that, but it's like trying to win the superbowl without steroids.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

but it's like trying to win the superbowl without steroids.

You just won the game.

That's true. These insights often COULD be reached while sober, and sometimes that's sufficient or even appropriate. But the psychedelic state, aside from sometimes leading one to those insights, makes them much more...more real, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Supernova

You just won the game.

Does he get a ring?

I tripped one time, and only on a quarter hit of acid, but it was an amazing experience. I didn't get any hallucinations, more it just made me look at things differently and spurred me to a lot of deep thinking. I think the key is that it makes you look at things in a new way, from an unfamiliar vantage. A Yaqui shaman would say it helps to shift your awareness point. Well, they'd actually say your assemblage point, but that takes a lot of study to understand what they mean by that... awareness works for the purpose of this conversation.

The "systematic derangement of the senses" is what I think Baudelaire called it. How can you come out of an experience like that without at least gaining some kind of insight, though sometimes I suppose you're under the influence of negative emotions or just have a bad trip and nothing useful comes of it.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Truth is felt through the realization of truth and sober works just fine for that, but it's like trying to win the superbowl without steroids.

Personally, I've been able to reach incredible altered states of consciousness without the use of drugs. My friend who did LSD didn't get any spiritual truth from it--all he saw was melting faces. I really think it depends on the person.

Originally Posted by Naiya

Personally, I've been able to reach incredible altered states of consciousness without the use of drugs. My friend who did LSD didn't get any spiritual truth from it--all he saw was melting faces. I really think it depends on the person.

This may not have been the case, but in my experience, your friend didn't get very powerful LSD. I've taken acid that makes things "melt" and wave and generally I hallucinate a lot, but nothing will compare to the LSD I had the luck of getting twice. The hallucinations weren't just more intense, they were much more deep. From the other acid I simply felt excited and kind of giggly, and I hallucinated a lot. This other acid though, it was crazy how different it was. I felt like I was losing my place in space-time. I literally thought I got stuck in a time loop because my mind was doing such a good job of convincing me that I had already seen, heard, felt and experienced everything I was right then. I really felt as though the things I was experiencing were already in my memory. My body felt like some intensity was being brought upon it to the point that I nearly couldn't take it anymore, but at the same time I couldn't really go over the edge. My friends had similar descriptions, but more like their body felt so good they couldn't take it anymore. I could see that somewhat, but I digress. The point is, this powerful acid really changed my perspective at the time. I could so readily believe any explanation my mind conjured up for anything, it was like I was a little kid (possibly even farther back than that), that I had regressed to the point at which I didn't see things from a day-to-day perspective, like everything I was taking in was new. Even the most worldly and mundane things inspired me. I could literally sit and stare the entirety of one of those acid trips because everything was so beautiful, it all made sense, and it was so... amazing.

I've had experience with altered states with dissociatives as well, namely Delsym. I will admit that I believed, felt, and experienced some very... different things, but overall I was and felt too fucked up to really say that it provided me with any kind of insight. Not to mention I couldn't focus my eyes on it, ever. I will say that many of those experiences were more like dreams in a way, though. I never really felt my body, not like numbness but it just wasn't there--hence dissociative I guess, lol.

One thing common to both of those drugs was time distortion--more specifically, dilation. After a while I got so used to it on Delsym that it didn't seem as though time were really all that distorted. On acid it never changed, though. On the plateau not as much, but during the peak it was ridiculous.

True dat.

I agree with Naya. Of course, drugs can be used as supplements, but are generally adviced against. Or at least not relied on. I have studied shamanism, as historical system and as personal system, for years now and I can say that you can achieve completely drug like state of mind with simple methods. I personally favor the northern tradition of drumming, but I am pretty sure anything monotonic action suffices.

By overcoming your daily state of mind you can dive a lot deeper in your head. Whatever form of shamanism you take of, it is all about changing the state of mind into something most of the practices call "spirit state". It might be that all that happens in that state is just in your own head ( this doesn't support tradition, naturally ), but it is notheless very interesting experience. I doubt there will be any good way to prove scientifically that you travel to the spirit realm and such, but I think it more as personal quest for enlightement. For me that suffices.

Psychedelics are good for spiritual insight. Dissociatives are better, if you can handle the truth.

Originally Posted by nina

Psychedelics are good for spiritual insight. Dissociatives are better, if you can handle the truth.

Couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by nina

Psychedelics are good for spiritual insight. Dissociatives are better, if you can handle the truth.

What exactly is 'the truth'?

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

What exactly is 'the truth'?

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

What exactly is 'the truth'?

This Guy

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

This Guy

Yay this!

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

What exactly is 'the truth'?

When you dissociate yourself from reality, isolating yourself from it, you realize how frivolous our perception of it really is.

Like Algebra

Originally Posted by Seroquel

When you dissociate yourself from reality, isolating yourself from it, you realize how frivolous our perception of it really is.

Like Algebra

The namesake of dissociatives, in my opinion, refers more specifically to the feelings of dissociation from the body rather than reality. It's arguable that psychedelics dissociate you from reality just as well. However, judging from your stand point, they take me even beyond that. I don't ever think about how things are or are considered to be in reality when on psychedelics. You make it sound as if while on dissociatives you actively compare reality to what you are experiencing then, whereas on psychedelics I don't consider anything real at all. Thus, psychedelics do a much better job at isolating you from reality since you have no perception of it whatsoever. However, if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, which I likely am, then I'd like to request that you please clarify your meaning. My experience on high dosages of dissociatives is that you are equally as removed from reality, but I always get the sensation that everything is old. My experiences are all old and anything I am experiencing now is just something I've experienced before, but again. I feel that there is nothing new in the world, or the universe for that matter, and that everything has already occurred. On psychedelics, everything is new. Things have such simple yet complex beauty. My mind feels as though it has been opened rather than closed. It seems to me that, in regards to which drugs are better for insight, it quite heavily depends on your own opinions and experiences. Imo, psychedelics are better, but I have no right to tell anyone else that they are wrong.

I miss good acid such as you describe. And...Delsym is not a drug, it's a brand of cough syrup, as I'm sure you know.

Delsym contains dextromethorphan without any of the harmful extra drugs that could, say, damage your liver badly. I know Seroquel has posted about using DXM before. Unless you go through the process of extracting it or bying from soomeone who has, the only way to get it is from cough syrup. If you had another dissociative in mind, would you please clarify which? I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that you were at least in part referring to DXM as well.

I was merely pointing out to those less versed in cough syrup junkie lingo, that Delsym isn't an actual drug or dissociative, it's the dxm that is. And Delsym contains dxm polisterex, so you're getting your drug wrapped up in little plastic pellets with lots of extra sugar like high fructose corn syrup which is bad for your liver when chugging bottles of that syrupy plastic goo. It's not that difficult to find pharmaceutical grade dxm online, don't ask me where, but it would be much better on your liver and kidneys in the long run if you did. By dissociatives I was referring to dxm, ketamine, methoxetamine, pcp, nitrous oxide, salvia...etc. The full class of drugs.

Originally Posted by nina

I was merely pointing out to those less versed in cough syrup junkie lingo, that Delsym isn't an actual drug or dissociative, it's the dxm that is. And Delsym contains dxm polisterex, so you're getting your drug wrapped up in little plastic pellets with lots of extra sugar like high fructose corn syrup which is bad for your liver when chugging bottles of that syrupy plastic goo. It's not that difficult to find pharmaceutical grade dxm online, don't ask me where, but it would be much better on your liver and kidneys in the long run if you did. By dissociatives I was referring to dxm, ketamine, methoxetamine, pcp, nitrous oxide, salvia...etc. The full class of drugs.

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I had the chance to get ketamine once but the guy sold all of it before I could get any

Never had a chance to try any of those others, barring salvia and nitrous oxide (of which I've only gotten nitrous oxide... at the dentist's lol).

Also, I realize that Delsym contains DXM Polisterix rather than hydrobromide, but I prefer the length of the trip to other cough syrups/medicines. Not to mention it is the only one I can take large quantities of without becoming extremely ill. I realize it isn't harmless to the liver, but many cough syrups contain lots of acetaminophen (terrible for the liver, especially at high doses) and guaifenesin (which can cause kidney stones and other issues... especially at high doses). I'd rather not go online to get DXM either, it isn't that important to me. Besides, it's pretty easy to snag myself a bottle of Delsym for free usually.

Originally Posted by snoop

Besides, it's pretty easy to snag myself a bottle of Delsym for free usually.

...aaand this is why pretty soon it'll all be behind the pharmacist's counter (assuming you're talking about pilfering it). I know plenty of pharmacies are already doing this because it has an extremely high tendency to walk off shelves.

Originally Posted by snoop

but many cough syrups contain lots of acetaminophen and guaifenesin

...and many don't. So...I don't get your point lol. It's just as easy to find a dxm only product, assuming you know how to read a label.

Ever tried Agent Lemon? Super easy extraction with huge pay off. I highly recommend.

Originally Posted by nina

...aaand this is why pretty soon it'll all be behind the pharmacist's counter (assuming you're talking about pilfering it). I know plenty of pharmacies are already doing this because it has an extremely high tendency to walk off shelves.

Some pharmacies around me I think don't even sell DXM-only varieties, else they're already behind the pharmacist counter.

Also, I need to be very careful if I ever try DXM, because I know my dad has an allergic reaction to it, and as far as I know it could be hereditary. Anyone know anything about that?

Originally Posted by Supernova

Some pharmacies around me I think don't even sell DXM-only varieties, else they're already behind the pharmacist counter.

Also, I need to be very careful if I ever try DXM, because I know my dad has an allergic reaction to it, and as far as I know it could be hereditary. Anyone know anything about that?

That wouldn't surprise me. But how do you know there weren't any? Did you know what to look for?

Your dad could be having a reaction to the dxm or to the other inactive ingredients in the product. Certain dxm products are notorious for causing strong histamine response..."robo itch", rashes, red face, etc. so people often take a benedryl or dramamine with their dxm.

Originally Posted by nina

...and many don't. So...I don't get your point lol. It's just as easy to find a dxm only product, assuming you know how to read a label.

Ever tried Agent Lemon? Super easy extraction with huge pay off. I highly recommend.

I've never been into it enough to try getting extractions. I tried extracting it myself using a method that resulted in Agent Lemon, but I fucked it up somewhere along the way. Haven't really tried it since. Also, I've had plenty of experience with the products I'm pilfering being removed from the shelves. I know better than to do what I did two summers ago, which resulted in the removal of an entire product from the store. But I've looked at all the other cough syrups and even some pills at various stores and retailers, and I've yet to find one besides Delsym that has no active ingredients other than DXM. Again, I'm not trying to buy anything off the internet.

[QUOTE=Supernova;1725686]I've heard many people talk about having insightful and profound spiritual experiences through the use of psychedelics. This is certainly a potential with such drugs, but this misses the real point; the core of such benefits usually sought by trippers is the fact that psychedelics alter our approach to the world around us in such a way as to sometimes provide that gentle push - or shove - in the right direction needed to fully attain an insight - about our world, our relationships, or ourselves.[QUOTE=Supernova;1725686]

I have thought this since I first tried psychedelics. I think it would be a much better world if everyone, that could mentally handle it, would try a psychedelic, because I think it really does change peoples perspective on life. I know it sure changed mine!